May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

Yes they were brave in fighting for the  Nazis and the establishment of concentration camps. And as intent, as the present day remoaners in making the U.K. a province of Germany.

 

In many ways, an Anschluss between Germany and the U.K. Would be no bad thing. 

 

German hospitals, houses, roads, schools, cars, efficiency, productivity, trade surplus

 

British humour and marmite!

[SheungWan]

The reason for the current flurry of lashing out by some forum Hard Brexiteers is their severe unhappiness that Theresa May made an agreement to proceed to the next stage of negotiations between the UK and the EU. They do not like this one bit. Not one bit at all.

[SheungWan]

47 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

QUOTE: Yes they were brave in fighting for the  Nazis and the establishment of concentration camps.

 

No they were not!

Like all the other poor brainwashed fools they were fighting for what they were told was their country and honour.

That mass murder, organised by those in power, has been going on for many centuries, and will only end when people of all countries start to know each other through free trade and travel.

 

QUOTE: And as intent, as the present day remoaners in making the U.K. a province of Germany.

 

Oh dear, you are NOT baiting and trolling, you really mean that, don't you?

 

The suggestion that the German soldiers were just unthinking and brainwashed fighting for country and honour does not stand up for one moment in the face of any serious reading of the period. It is as ridiculous as the current conspiracy nonsense on the other side.

[talahtnut]

15 hours ago, SheungWan said:

The loopy website versions.

A certain mind is a closed mind.

[nauseus]

21 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

The reason for the current flurry of lashing out by some forum Hard Brexiteers is their severe unhappiness that Theresa May made an agreement to proceed to the next stage of negotiations between the UK and the EU. They do not like this one bit. Not one bit at all.

Mystic Wan and her crystal ball again!

[talahtnut]

15 hours ago, nauseus said:

Mystic Wan and her crystal ball again!

The ball is cracked.

[oldhippy]

34 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

Research and science.

off grid science ?

 

[oldhippy]

30 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

The suggestion that the German soldiers were just unthinking and brainwashed fighting for country and honour does not stand up for one moment in the face of any serious reading of the period. It is as ridiculous as the current conspiracy nonsense on the other side.

Brainwashed with centuries of patriotism.

Like everybody else.

 

 

[Grouse]

Read up the Wehrmacht and compare with the Schutzstaffel (SS), Sturm Abteilung (SA) and Geimstaats Polizei (gestapo). Then make global statements.

 

Ironically, Germany in the '30s has some ominous reflections in the U.K. and several other EU countries (e.g. Czech, Poland, Austria)

Edited December 16, 2017 by Grouse

[Grouse]

10 minutes ago, nontabury said:

What the hell as that got to do with Brexit. Unless you’ve been brainwashed by the British media and the so called elite.

Sadly, immigration is indeed connected to UKIP and other sections of the Brexit brigade. ?

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Sadly, immigration is indeed connected to UKIP and other sections of the Brexit brigade. ?

If you see the immigration issue as being the same as the racism issue then you are wrong.

[Orac]

What the hell as that got to do with Brexit. Unless you’ve been brainwashed by the British media and the so called elite.

You are the one introducing this white-supermacist group’s views as relevant to the debate ironically linking them with a post about defeating Germany on WWII when it is not really clear which side they would have been on.

From the linked article:

“Jacob Rees-Mogg, the Conservative MP, has said he feels “very silly” for speaking at a black tie dinner hosted by a man who advocates the repatriation of "non-indigenous" Britons”


And

“Its president is Lord Sudely, a former president of the Monday Club, who has praised Hitler. “



They are racist scum and their views should be condemned by all right minded people and those who seek to introduce their views as part of the debate over brexit should also be called out over this.




Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[nauseus]

15 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

You are the one introducing this white-supermacist group’s views as relevant to the debate ironically linking them with a post about defeating Germany on WWII when it is not really clear which side they would have been on.

From the linked article:

“Jacob Rees-Mogg, the Conservative MP, has said he feels “very silly” for speaking at a black tie dinner hosted by a man who advocates the repatriation of "non-indigenous" Britons”


And

“Its president is Lord Sudely, a former president of the Monday Club, who has praised Hitler. “



They are racist scum and their views should be condemned by all right minded people and those who seek to introduce their views as part of the debate over brexit should also be called out over this.




Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

Not the article/VDO that nontabury put up, however. I'm sure he didn't see the trash you managed to dig up!

[Grouse]

21 minutes ago, nauseus said:

If you see the immigration issue as being the same as the racism issue then you are wrong.

You miss the point. I contend that whenever you have a large proportion of a population who are not doing well or perceive that they are not doing well, there is an opportunity for demagoguery. Versailles led to great poverty which allowed Hitler an opportunity to blame it on the Jews. UK gross inequality has led poverty on an embarrassing scale and allowed Farage et al to blame it on immigrants. Same in the USA.

 

Best solution is an equitable society with social justice.

 

Trump is exacerbating inequality in America; Brexit will do the same for the UK

Edited December 16, 2017 by Grouse

[Orac]

Not the article/VDO that nontabury put up, however. I'm sure he didn't see the trash you managed to dig up!

If he is linking to their Facebook videos he would need to be pretty naive to not know more about the views they espouse.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[nontabury]

21 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

You are the one introducing this white-supermacist group’s views as relevant to the debate ironically linking them with a post about defeating Germany on WWII when it is not really clear which side they would have been on.

From the linked article:

“Jacob Rees-Mogg, the Conservative MP, has said he feels “very silly” for speaking at a black tie dinner hosted by a man who advocates the repatriation of "non-indigenous" Britons”


And

“Its president is Lord Sudely, a former president of the Monday Club, who has praised Hitler. “



They are racist scum and their views should be condemned by all right minded people and those who seek to introduce their views as part of the debate over brexit should also be called out over this.




Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

If you mean white supremacist, when have I ever supported such a view, or is that, what you call everybody who disagrees with you. Typical arrogance from a remoaner.

[billd766]

Now I remember why I find this thread so particularly boring.

 

It seems so far off topic at times especially in the last couple of pages that I am sure it should be in the jokes section.

[nauseus]

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

You miss the point. I contend that whenever you have a large proportion of a population who are not doing well or perceive that they are not doing well, there is an opportunity for demagoguery. Versailles led to great poverty which allowed Hitler an opportunity to blame it on the Jews. UK gross inequality has led poverty on an embarrassing scale and allowed Farage et al to blame it on immigrants. Same in the USA.

 

Best solution is an equitable society with social justice.

 

Trump is exacerbating inequality in America; Brexit will do the same for the UK

I don't think I missed anything, Your solution is fine but when has this state ever existed in human history? The EU will not bring this about; everyone must see that already.

[Orac]

If you mean white supremacist, when have I ever supported such a view, or is that, what you call everybody who disagrees with you. Typical arrogance from a remoaner.

 

I didn’t call you a white supremacist, I referred to the Traditional Britain Group as such which is pretty clear from the views that they espouse. You could well have inadvertently linked to their Facebook page without being fully aware of their views and you are quite welcome to clarify things.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[nauseus]

14 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

If he is linking to their Facebook videos he would need to be pretty naive to not know more about the views they espouse.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

That must be it.

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

I don't think I missed anything, Your solution is fine but when has this state ever existed in human history? The EU will not bring this about; everyone must see that already.

It exists in much of Europe to a much greater extent than the U.K. Nobody expects utopia but our governments have performed poorly in this regard

[nontabury]

36 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

If he is linking to their Facebook videos he would need to be pretty naive to not know more about the views they espouse.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

How about this one, direct from YouTube. 

I read awhile back a post from a remoaner,who suggested that only news, that he agreed with should be allowed. Censorship by the back door.

As for Facebook, let’s go direct to you tube and hear the views of a very experienced remoaner. 

 

https://youtu.be/4w8BR4y3eUI

[ilostmypassword]

31 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I don't think I missed anything, Your solution is fine but when has this state ever existed in human history? The EU will not bring this about; everyone must see that already.

Maybe there are no perfectly equitable nations - nor is that possible - but there are plenty in the developed world a lot more equitable than the uk. In fact among the OECD nations only Turkey, Mexico, Chile, and the USA have worse inequality. And Mexico, Turkey, and Chile are barely elegible for OECD membership. For fully economically developed nations, only the USA is worse than the UK.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

[Orac]

How about this one, direct from YouTube. 
I read awhile back a post from a remoaner,who suggested that only news, that he agreed with should be allowed. Censorship by the back door.
As for Facebook, let’s go direct to you tube and hear the views of a very experienced remoaner. 
 
https://youtu.be/4w8BR4y3eUI

I have no problem at all with views honestly expressed in that clip though I do think that they might not stand up to too much scrutiny.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/bbc-question-time-brexiteer-accidentally-admits-he-didnt-know-what-brexit-would-entail/ar-BBGL9bj

I also particularly admired the bit, not in this clip, of Isabel Oakshott managing to keep a straight face while accusing ppl of humiliating the PM and conveniently forgetting when she broke the story of David Cameron and the pig.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Not the article/VDO that nontabury put up, however. I'm sure he didn't see the trash you managed to dig up!

 

1 hour ago, Orac said:

If he is linking to their Facebook videos he would need to be pretty naive to not know more about the views they espouse.

 

Exactly!

[Khun Han]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

5 hours ago, Grouse said:

You miss the point. I contend that whenever you have a large proportion of a population who are not doing well or perceive that they are not doing well, there is an opportunity for demagoguery. Versailles led to great poverty which allowed Hitler an opportunity to blame it on the Jews. UK gross inequality has led poverty on an embarrassing scale and allowed Farage et al to blame it on immigrants. Same in the USA.

 

Best solution is an equitable society with social justice.

 

Trump is exacerbating inequality in America; Brexit will do the same for the UK

I don't think I missed anything, Your solution is fine but when has this state ever existed in human history? The EU will not bring this about; everyone must see that already.

 

And the fact which remainers refuse to acknowledge is that inequality has gone up exponentially since we joined the EU. Now, why is that? Uh.....it couldn't have anything to do with the mass influx of cheap labour which has dragged down the wages and salaries  of working class and middle class people, whilst the people at the top end get fabulously rich off the back of it, could it? People are blaming their poverty on immigration because uncontrolled immigration is being used to keep them poor. It's a discussion the liberal left don't want to have, and they bully anyone who tries to have it.

[oldhippy]

18 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

And the fact which remainers refuse to acknowledge is that inequality has gone up exponentially since we joined the EU. Now, why is that? Uh.....it couldn't have anything to do with the mass influx of cheap labour which has dragged down the wages and salaries  of working class and middle class people, whilst the people at the top end get fabulously rich off the back of it, could it? People are blaming their poverty on immigration because uncontrolled immigration is being used to keep them poor. It's a discussion the liberal left don't want to have, and they bully anyone who tries to have it.

Really?

Do you blame the EU for the fact that the UK was, is, and will stay a hiso - loso divided society?

You must feel very much at home here in Thailand....

Same same, not different.

 

 

[Orac]

 
And the fact which remainers refuse to acknowledge is that inequality has gone up exponentially since we joined the EU. Now, why is that? Uh.....it couldn't have anything to do with the mass influx of cheap labour which has dragged down the wages and salaries  of working class and middle class people, whilst the people at the top end get fabulously rich off the back of it, could it? People are blaming their poverty on immigration because uncontrolled immigration is being used to keep them poor. It's a discussion the liberal left don't want to have, and they bully anyone who tries to have it.

To be fair the likes of Jeremy Corbyn have been trying to have this very conversation about poverty and inequality for some time but, in trying to link it to the EU, it becomes a much more difficult subject as to how much is due to rules being ‘forced’ on us by the EU and how much is due to poor policy decisions by successive UK govts - the policy of bringing in immigrants from the commonwealth as cheap labour was from way before we joined the EC.

To try and pin this on the EU is, in my opinion, a step too far since it does not explain why some of the more progressive countries in the EU have a far better record regarding equality than the U.K. and also why some countries outside the EU are also doing so badly such as the US.

As far as bullying and trying to shut down conversation regarding this I think you will find many of us who do not support brexit and are also not exactly socialists would welcome a discussion on its causes - Grouse has been particularly outspoken on it.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

And the fact which remainers refuse to acknowledge is that inequality has gone up exponentially since we joined the EU. Now, why is that? Uh.....it couldn't have anything to do with the mass influx of cheap labour which has dragged down the wages and salaries  of working class and middle class people, whilst the people at the top end get fabulously rich off the back of it, could it? People are blaming their poverty on immigration because uncontrolled immigration is being used to keep them poor. It's a discussion the liberal left don't want to have, and they bully anyone who tries to have it.

No. Our wages were typically much lower than the EU (EEC) at the time we joined; hence Auf Wiedersehen Pet etc. Did Europe complain about our cheap labour? No.

[Khun Han]

35 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

 

To be fair the likes of Jeremy Corbyn have been trying to have this very conversation about poverty and inequality for some time but, in trying to link it to the EU, it becomes a much more difficult subject as to how much is due to rules being ‘forced’ on us by the EU and how much is due to poor policy decisions by successive UK govts - the policy of bringing in immigrants from the commonwealth as cheap labour was from way before we joined the EC.

To try and pin this on the EU is, in my opinion, a step too far since it does not explain why some of the more progressive countries in the EU have a far better record regarding equality than the U.K. and also why some countries outside the EU are also doing so badly such as the US.

As far as bullying and trying to shut down conversation regarding this I think you will find many of us who do not support brexit and are also not exactly socialists would welcome a discussion on its causes - Grouse has been particularly outspoken on it.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

Firstly, thanks for the well-considered  and polite reply.

 

Yes, commonwealth immigration imported cheap labour - but during an era when cheap labour was needed. It's a completely different scenario to that which we have had since we joined the single market, which has done exactly as I described to peoples' standard of living. Statistics back this up, and anyone old enough has seen it unfold before their own eyes: remember when you were young, how much more wealthy the factory managers and small business owners were than ordinary working people? There wasn't an enormous gap, was there? And even most of the 'rich' were just-about millionaires or maybe worth a few million. Take a look at the UK rich lists today. All the while, the masses' standard of living has barely crept up. This wealth gap has happened since we joined the EU, and this was acknowledged by Theresa May when she took the PM job (people being left behind by globalisation - you probably remember the speech).

 

With regard to trying to shut down conversation on such issues, I made it very clear that I was referring to the liberal left, which will not even countenance discussion of immigration and race-related problems. Politicians and appointees (sometimes from racial minorities themselves) are sacked/forced out if they try to start the conversation.