May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Grouse]

9 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Firstly, thanks for the well-considered  and polite reply.

 

Yes, commonwealth immigration imported cheap labour - but during an era when cheap labour was needed. It's a completely different scenario to that which we have had since we joined the single market, which has done exactly as I described to peoples' standard of living. Statistics back this up, and anyone old enough has seen it unfold before their own eyes: remember when you were young, how much more wealthy the factory managers and small business owners were than ordinary working people? There wasn't an enormous gap, was there? And even most of the 'rich' were just-about millionaires or maybe worth a few million. Take a look at the UK rich lists today. All the while, the masses' standard of living has barely crept up. This wealth gap has happened since we joined the EU, and this was acknowledged by Theresa May when she took the PM job (people being left behind by globalisation - you probably remember the speech).

 

With regard to trying to shut down conversation on such issues, I made it very clear that I was referring to the liberal left, which will not even countenance discussion of immigration and race-related problems. Politicians and appointees (sometimes from racial minorities themselves) are sacked/forced out if they try to start the conversation.

Causation? I don't see it

 

Corrolation, may be.

[simoh1490]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

Really?

Do you blame the EU for the fact that the UK was, is, and will stay a hiso - loso divided society?

You must feel very much at home here in Thailand....

Same same, not different.

 

 

Your observations about hiso/loso are accurate, except he's in Manchester, not Thailand, cold grey Manchester.

[Khun Han]

4 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Your observations about hiso/loso are accurate, except he's in Manchester, not Thailand, cold grey Manchester.

 

Simoh1490 constantly bleats about leaving the personal stuff out of the debates.....

[simoh1490]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

Simoh1490 constantly bleats about leaving the personal stuff out of the debates.....

Not really personal at all, I think context is an important part of these debates, understanding whether a person is arguing from a UK perspective whilst resident there, or, arguing a UK perspective whilst resident overseas in Thailand, this is after all Thai Visa Forum. I think where the poster is based has a bearing on the nature and severity of their argument, for example: posters who are UK resident are constantly bombarded with news and opinion from a variety of sources, plus, they live amongst a series of economic and social conditions they personally might wish to see changed. Expat residents, however, are free of such encumbrances and are more able to evaluate fact, unemotionally and without local and media bias, they also tend to be older, hence better educated and more mature, thus their views are, in general, likely to carry more weight.

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Firstly, thanks for the well-considered  and polite reply.

 

Yes, commonwealth immigration imported cheap labour - but during an era when cheap labour was needed. It's a completely different scenario to that which we have had since we joined the single market, which has done exactly as I described to peoples' standard of living. Statistics back this up, and anyone old enough has seen it unfold before their own eyes: remember when you were young, how much more wealthy the factory managers and small business owners were than ordinary working people? There wasn't an enormous gap, was there? And even most of the 'rich' were just-about millionaires or maybe worth a few million. Take a look at the UK rich lists today. All the while, the masses' standard of living has barely crept up. This wealth gap has happened since we joined the EU, and this was acknowledged by Theresa May when she took the PM job (people being left behind by globalisation - you probably remember the speech).

 

With regard to trying to shut down conversation on such issues, I made it very clear that I was referring to the liberal left, which will not even countenance discussion of immigration and race-related problems. Politicians and appointees (sometimes from racial minorities themselves) are sacked/forced out if they try to start the conversation.

Rising inequality is the fault of the EU? Then why is it that all the developed EU nations without exception have much lower inequality than the UK? And why is it that the USA, which is not a member of the EU, has even greater inequality?  The fact is that the Conservatives, with a somewhat lesser but still potent push from New Labour, are responsible. It wasn't long ago that the Conservatives twice gave the wealthiest Britons big tax cuts and slashed benefits to pay for them.

And instead of blaming the parties responsible, lots of British voters decided that it was the fault of those damn foreigners in Brussels.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

No. Our wages were typically much lower than the EU (EEC) at the time we joined; hence Auf Wiedersehen Pet etc. Did Europe complain about our cheap labour? No.

THAT was a much different time and place (basically Germany)..  

[nauseus]

34 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Rising inequality is the fault of the EU? Then why is it that all the developed EU nations without exception have much lower inequality than the UK? And why is it that the USA, which is not a member of the EU, has even greater inequality?  The fact is that the Conservatives, with a somewhat lesser but still potent push from New Labour, are responsible. It wasn't long ago that the Conservatives twice gave the wealthiest Britons big tax cuts and slashed benefits to pay for them.

And instead of blaming the parties responsible, lots of British voters decided that it was the fault of those damn foreigners in Brussels.

There's a whole lot of equality in Greece, innit?

[Khun Han]

31 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Rising inequality is the fault of the EU? Then why is it that all the developed EU nations without exception have much lower inequality than the UK? And why is it that the USA, which is not a member of the EU, has even greater inequality?  The fact is that the Conservatives, with a somewhat lesser but still potent push from New Labour, are responsible. It wasn't long ago that the Conservatives twice gave the wealthiest Britons big tax cuts and slashed benefits to pay for them.

And instead of blaming the parties responsible, lots of British voters decided that it was the fault of those damn foreigners in Brussels.

 

You miss the point by a country mile. Free movement has given the vested interests, both UK and multinational, the opportunity to make hay in the UK. Other EU countries don't have the same problems because the UK and Germany attract the vast bulk of EU economic migrants And Germany can't be compared because it's a very different economic and social model.

[nontabury]

32 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Not really personal at all, I think context is an important part of these debates, understanding whether a person is arguing from a UK perspective whilst resident there, or, arguing a UK perspective whilst resident overseas in Thailand, this is after all Thai Visa Forum. I think where the poster is based has a bearing on the nature and severity of their argument, for example: posters who are UK resident are constantly bombarded with news and opinion from a variety of sources, plus, they live amongst a series of economic and social conditions they personally might wish to see changed. Expat residents, however, are free of such encumbrances and are more able to evaluate fact, unemotionally and without local and media bias, they also tend to be older, hence better educated and more mature, thus their views are, in general, likely to carry more weight.

Unfortunately the British media is not impartial on this subject. As shown by the majority of the media not publicising, the record speed that a petition has been signed by over 100,000 demanding that parliament debates, walking out of article 50, and basically telling the Brussel  Bureaucrats to fxxk off. Thankfully we now have other sources of information, the masses are waking up to this treacherous act. 

[brewsterbudgen]

Unfortunately the British media is not impartial on this subject. As shown by the majority of the media not publicising, the record speed that a petition has been signed by over 100,000 demanding that parliament debates, walking out of article 50, and basically telling the Brussel  Bureaucrats to fxxk off. Thankfully we now have other sources of information, the masses are waking up to this treacherous act. 

So the British media should be pro UKIP? Thank goodness for the impartiality of much of it, and the obvious partiality of the likes of the Mail, Torygraph, Express and other Brexit rags.

Sent from my SM-A500F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

You miss the point by a country mile. Free movement has given the vested interests, both UK and multinational, the opportunity to make hay in the UK. Other EU countries don't have the same problems because the UK and Germany attract the vast bulk of EU economic migrants And Germany can't be compared because it's a very different economic and social model.

It can't be compared because it's a very different social and economic model? Really? That's like saying just because your child eats a well balanced diet while mine lives on candy, that's not the reason yours is healthy and mine is not. The UK has chosen a path to exacerbate inequality. It's drastically cutting its social services, privatizing institutions that ought not to be privatized, all to pay for tax cuts to the wealthy. And Germany isn't the only other developed nation in the EU to accept large numbers of immigrants. Yet somehow these nations manage to keep inequality under control.

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

There's a whole lot of equality in Greece, innit?

I specified developed EU nations. Greece hardly qualifies. Moreover, most of its prolonged suffering is due to the fact that it's a member of the Eurozone, Last time I checked, the UK wasn't.

[beautifulthailand99]

Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:

 

Food is rotting in the fields..... British agriculture experienced a labor shortfall of between 13 percent and 29 percent on a monthly basis from May to September, according to the National Farmers Union. 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/world/europe/britain-european-union-farming-immigration-labor-shortage.html

Edited December 16, 2017 by beautifulthailand99

[Khun Han]

12 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

It can't be compared because it's a very different social and economic model? Really? That's like saying just because your child eats a well balanced diet while mine lives on candy, that's not the reason yours is healthy and mine is not. The UK has chosen a path to exacerbate inequality. It's drastically cutting its social services, privatizing institutions that ought not to be privatized, all to pay for tax cuts to the wealthy. And Germany isn't the only other developed nation in the EU to accept large numbers of immigrants. Yet somehow these nations manage to keep inequality under control.

 

What on earth are you going on about, comparing the health of children with the diverse ways different economies have developed? And why are you trying to introduce countries accepting immigrants into this? I have been very specifically discussing single market free movement. If you must insist on having the last word all the time, at least stick to what you're debating.

[Khun Han]

2 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/world/europe/britain-european-union-farming-immigration-labor-shortage.html

 

What an utterly ridiculous article! In an article about labour shortages from EU migrants, the writer highlights a Scottish fruit farmer being let down by Bulgarian migrants he thought he'd hired, who took jobs in an engineering factory in Birmingham instead (who wouldn't?). The only thing it highlights is that migrants are getting wise to better-paid, better-conditions jobs. People are still coming to the UK from Europe in big numbers anyway, as anyone who lives here (particularly letting agents) will attest.

[talahtnut]

15 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/world/europe/britain-european-union-farming-immigration-labor-shortage.html

Pay a decent wage and get decent labour.  Share a bit more of the profit.

[Khun Han]

30 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

There's a whole lot of equality in Greece, innit?

I specified developed EU nations. Greece hardly qualifies. Moreover, most of its prolonged suffering is due to the fact that it's a member of the Eurozone, Last time I checked, the UK wasn't.

 

Yes, I've noticed that the generalizations and specifics tend to switch and shift according to how the debate is unfolding.

[Khun Han]

3 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

Pay a decent wage and get decent labour.  Share a bit more of the profit.

 

Exactly the point I've been trying to make. But the farmer will find people desperate enough from some backwater of the EU, rather take your advice. That's the great thing about free movement wrt to employers.

[ilostmypassword]

14 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

What on earth are you going on about, comparing the health of children with the diverse ways different economies have developed? And why are you trying to introduce countries accepting immigrants into this? I have been very specifically discussing single market free movement. If you must insist on having the last word all the time, at least stick to what you're debating.

So you're saying that all the EU citizens from other nations who now live in the UK aren't immigrants? What are they then? And please, share your definition of immigrant with other Brexiters. I'm sure they'll be surprised.

And I noticed you completely failed to address the question of why you think that a difference in systems is irrelevant to wealth inequality? And why you think that cuts in taxation and social services are somehow the fault of the EU.

And by the way, your assertion that income inequality rose with the advent of the EU is false. Actually it declined until 1979.

https://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/how-has-inequality-changed

And you know who got elected PM in 1979? Margaret Thatcher. And then it began a very rapid rise that lasted until 1991. Margaret Thatcher resigned in 1990. 

[Khun Han]

15 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

So you're saying that all the EU citizens from other nations who now live in the UK aren't immigrants? What are they then? And please, share your definition of immigrant with other Brexiters. I'm sure they'll be surprised.

And I noticed you completely failed to address the question of why you think that a difference in systems is irrelevant to wealth inequality? And why you think that cuts in taxation and social services are somehow the fault of the EU.

And by the way, your assertion that income inequality rose with the advent of the EU is false. Actually it declined until 1979.

https://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/how-has-inequality-changed

And you know who got elected PM in 1979? Margaret Thatcher. And then it began a very rapid rise that lasted until 1991. Margaret Thatcher resigned in 1990. 

 

Oh gawd, off he goes with his wordplay again: "And Germany isn't the only other developed nation in the EU to accept large numbers of immigrants." has suddenly mutated into EU workers excercising freedom of movement (hint: they don't need to be "accepted" ). Germany gets mostly skilled workers who are paid the going rate. The UK gets mostly lower skill/unskilled workers who are happy to work for less than the going rate whilst using/abusing our lax social security facilities. And thankyou for providing the factual evidence that income inequality has got much worse since we joined the single market.

[ilostmypassword]

5 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Oh gawd, off he goes with his wordplay again: "And Germany isn't the only other developed nation in the EU to accept large numbers of immigrants." has suddenly mutated into EU workers excercising freedom of movement (hint: they don't need to be "accepted" ). Germany gets mostly skilled workers who are paid the going rate. The UK gets mostly lower skill/unskilled workers who are happy to work for less than the going rate whilst using/abusing our lax social security facilities. And thankyou for providing the factual evidence that income inequality has got much worse since we joined the single market.

Really, Germany gets mostly skilled workers? Where did you come up with that factoid,

Read this: https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2016/wp1606.pdf

And clearly you are unfamiliar with history. As I noted earlier  and you apparently missed, the big rise in inequality began in 1979 and lasted until 1991. It was only after that  that the the EU single market came into being.. So tell me, how possibly could the single market have affected income inequality since it came afterwards? Time travel?

On the other hand there is a clear correlation between the reign of Margaret Thatcher and income inequality but for some reason you choose to absolutely ignore that.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.  

[SheungWan]

Some of the forum Hard Brexiteers never expected or wanted Theresa May to come to an agreement with the EU on stage 1 of the negotiations. They now know that stage 2 will be a possibility and we may have a smoothish transition whereas what they wanted was the car crash option of out now. So, they are not going to waste any time discussing the economic models or fine detail of trade partnerships. No. Not interested. Now they return to base where their core support is interested in one thing and one thing only. Immigration. Not even going to pretend it is about other things. Objective? Push Theresa May off the edge. She is just an Enemy of the People now.

[Khun Han]

46 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Really, Germany gets mostly skilled workers? Where did you come up with that factoid,

Read this: https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2016/wp1606.pdf

And clearly you are unfamiliar with history. As I noted earlier  and you apparently missed, the big rise in inequality began in 1979 and lasted until 1991. It was only after that  that the the EU single market came into being.. So tell me, how possibly could the single market have affected income inequality since it came afterwards? Time travel?

On the other hand there is a clear correlation between the reign of Margaret Thatcher and income inequality but for some reason you choose to absolutely ignore that.

 

The PDF you linked doesn't appear to address the point I raised.

 

Clearly, you don't look at your own evidence properly. Income inequality continued to rise in the nineties and noughties until it fell after the last recession. And, according to the report, it continued to fall subsequently in part due to higher social security payments! Nothing to do with rising wages.

[aright]

41 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Some of the forum Hard Brexiteers never expected or wanted Theresa May to come to an agreement with the EU on stage 1 of the negotiations. They now know that stage 2 will be a possibility and we may have a smoothish transition whereas what they wanted was the car crash option of out now. So, they are not going to waste any time discussing the economic models or fine detail of trade partnerships. No. Not interested. Now they return to base where their core support is interested in one thing and one thing only. Immigration. Not even going to pretend it is about other things. Objective? Push Theresa May off the edge. She is just an Enemy of the People now.

I heard a parable yesterday from the 13th century Persian philosopher Mulla Nasreddin which perfectly sums up  the last hopes of Die-Hard Remainers.

Sentenced to death by the Sultan ,Nasreddin begs forgiveness and promises, ridiculously, that given a one years stay of execution, he could teach the Sultan's horse to sing. An amused Sultan agrees. Nasreddin's cell mate tells him he is a fool , as a horse can never be taught to sing. To which Nasreddin replies ......A lot of things can happen in a year. The king might die. The horse might die. I might die and who knows? Maybe the horse will sing.

[Khun Han]

My god, this man really needs to curl up and die. A lying, traitorous war criminal telling the Labour party to do what's right, even if they lose the election!

 

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/tony-blair-apos-stopping-brexit-165938378.html

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Some of the forum Hard Brexiteers never expected or wanted Theresa May to come to an agreement with the EU on stage 1 of the negotiations. They now know that stage 2 will be a possibility and we may have a smoothish transition whereas what they wanted was the car crash option of out now. So, they are not going to waste any time discussing the economic models or fine detail of trade partnerships. No. Not interested. Now they return to base where their core support is interested in one thing and one thing only. Immigration. Not even going to pretend it is about other things. Objective? Push Theresa May off the edge. She is just an Enemy of the People now.

For those who voted to leave, the main reason, was to regain our national sovereignty. Just as this man from Barnsley said on BBC question time, listen to him again, he’s speaking for the majority,not on behalf of  the interest of some elitist group.

 

 

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

My god, this man really needs to curl up and die. A lying, traitorous war criminal telling the Labour party to do what's right, even if they lose the election!

 

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/tony-blair-apos-stopping-brexit-165938378.html

Further more, does he not have any shame, he is disliked by the vast majority of the British people,and that includes Labour supporters. He should be in The Hague, serving time for war crimes. The only good thing when he opens his lying mouth, is that more and more sensible people realise, what these self serving elite are about.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Exactly the point I've been trying to make. But the farmer will find people desperate enough from some backwater of the EU, rather take your advice. That's the great thing about free movement wrt to employers.

The great thing about free movement in the EU is that it applies to everyone. 

 

Of course if you didn't pay attention at school or can't be assed to work hard you might not find a job anywhere, not in the UK or anywhere else.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

9 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Further more, does he not have any shame, he is disliked by the vast majority of the British people,and that includes Labour supporters. He should be in The Hague, serving time for war crimes. The only good thing when he opens his lying mouth, is that more and more sensible people realise, what these self serving elite are about.

 

One does not serve time for war crimes in The Hague, though it is possible to be sentenced at The Hague for war crimes. 

 

The sentence comes  after a trial and the trial before a proclamation of guilt.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Chomper Higgot