May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[SaintLouisBlues]

34 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You can argue all day over the meaning of democracy. The result was close to half and half so there was no overwhelming vote in favour.

Parliamentary sovereignty was brought about by the will of the people but TM wants to bypass it, which will of the people should take precedence, yesterday or today?

The High Court ruled against the government but the government is not prepared to accept the decision, but it is unacceptable for anyone else to follow the governments example, how hypocritical is that.

David Cameron has a lot to answer for and the repercussions of his actions are going to cause problems for years to come, something the brexit camp need to accept. It was only a yes or no to open the lid but it can never be closed again.

I'm sure it's important for your self-esteem to have a rant, but I was simply responding to one question that you asked - whether even the uninformed should be allowed to vote

[sandyf]

5 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

I'm sure it's important for your self-esteem to have a rant, but I was simply responding to one question that you asked - whether even the uninformed should be allowed to vote

That being the case you answered a question that was never asked, I simply made a comment on something said by someone else, nothing whatsoever about who could vote.

You may have misunderstood but your answer came across as a sarcastic reply.

[jpinx]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

So you accept that Joe Public is more likely to make an 'uninformed decision'.

No !  I most certainly do not *ACCEPT* that situation.  Unfortunately it is very difficult to get real facts, as many pages of this thread have amply demonstrated.   Accountability is incredibly difficult to enforce on Politicians and press alike.  Look at Camoron - Promising the referendum would be enacted, promising to stay on and see the result through no matter what.  Monumental lies for which he will never be held to account.  In fact he will probably go on the lecture circuit and do quite well.  What does *that* say about our higher education system?

 

Meantime -- France seems to be down to Le Penne or Fillon - giving them an "out" or "half-out" outcome,  Austria are issuing candidates with boxing gloves and Germany's Bavarian region has given the Brussels a serious poke in the eye by saying they will negotiate with independent UK as soon as they want.  It's great fun to watch this all unfold.....  :)

[Loeilad]

4 hours ago, jpinx said:

Indeed -- it is a two-edged sword.  I support no particular conspiracy theory but I do wonder how Joe Public is expected to make an "informed decision" when all that is available to him is the spinning top that is the mockery of political truth.  No wonder people become "conspiratorists" when there is so little of the apparent reality they can rely on. 

It appears you suspect a conspiracy by....???

[jpinx]

Just now, Loeilad said:

It appears you suspect a conspiracy by....???

You've not been following my posts -- I don't do conspiracies --  I merely comment on how things are......

[Loeilad]

"I also managed to spell Will Self's name correctly which is something that you failed to do" - possibly the weakest argument on the whole thread but nevertheless very telling

 

 

(- it also appears he couldn't comment on the message nor the messenger as he didn't know who it was!)

[Loeilad]

10 minutes ago, jpinx said:

You've not been following my posts -- I don't do conspiracies --  I merely comment on how things are......

looks like you think theyare conspiracies from where I'm sitting - it is that kind of "cynicism to cover up ignorance" ploy?

[AlexRich]

Pretty obvious ... if you are an international company and you want to trade freely in Europe, there's no point in being in the UK ... looks like inward investment post-Brexit will be significantly lower. Some existing companies will leave, and fewer companies will set-up in the UK.

 

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/02/brexit-uncertainty-continues-to-dissuade-multi-national-companies-from-staying-put.html

[AlexRich]

32 minutes ago, jpinx said:

No !  I most certainly do not *ACCEPT* that situation.  Unfortunately it is very difficult to get real facts, as many pages of this thread have amply demonstrated.   Accountability is incredibly difficult to enforce on Politicians and press alike.  Look at Camoron - Promising the referendum would be enacted, promising to stay on and see the result through no matter what.  Monumental lies for which he will never be held to account.  In fact he will probably go on the lecture circuit and do quite well.  What does *that* say about our higher education system?

 

Meantime -- France seems to be down to Le Penne or Fillon - giving them an "out" or "half-out" outcome,  Austria are issuing candidates with boxing gloves and Germany's Bavarian region has given the Brussels a serious poke in the eye by saying they will negotiate with independent UK as soon as they want.  It's great fun to watch this all unfold.....  :)

 

"It's great fun to watch this all unfold?"

 

That's what's troubling for me ... the number of people on here that are hoping for an EU implosion, without any thought to the misery that would create ... in the UK, never mind Europe. Brexit does not make the UK immune ... if our biggest trading partners go into an economic depression we go with them. 

 

[SaintLouisBlues]

8 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

That's what's troubling for me ... the number of people on here that are hoping for an EU implosion, without any thought to the misery that would create ... in the UK, never mind Europe. Brexit does not make the UK immune ... if our biggest trading partners go into an economic depression we go with them. 

Surely you realize that that is of infinitesimally small importance next to the need to be right and, more, to punish those who disagree

[AlexRich]

3 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Surely you realize that that is of infinitesimally small importance next to the need to be right and, more, to punish those who disagree

 

If you are economically secure you can weather the storm, but many people are not in that position ... wishing to leave the EU is one thing, hoping that the EU implodes on itself serves no purpose.

[jpinx]

9 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

"It's great fun to watch this all unfold?"

 

That's what's troubling for me ... the number of people on here that are hoping for an EU implosion, without any thought to the misery that would create ... in the UK, never mind Europe. Brexit does not make the UK immune ... if our biggest trading partners go into an economic depression we go with them. 

 

I said "...unfold..."   *YOU* said IMPLODE !!!   Now who's the conspiracy theorist?

[jpinx]

20 minutes ago, Loeilad said:

looks like you think theyare conspiracies from where I'm sitting - it is that kind of "cynicism to cover up ignorance" ploy?

Adjust the tint of your glasses and enjoy the life you have --  not the life you might have had.

[AlexRich]

13 minutes ago, jpinx said:

I said "...unfold..."   *YOU* said IMPLODE !!!   Now who's the conspiracy theorist?

 

Conspiracy theorist? 

 

[billd766]

On 02/12/2016 at 2:53 PM, dick dasterdly said:

Ummm, Richmond was a strong Conservative seat, so more shocking that they voted for the Lib Dems?

 

Less shocking that the strongly remain constituency voted against a leave supporter.

 

But I agree that it will be interesting to see the results if there is a leave constituency by-election in the near future?

 

 

Why did they vote Lib/Dem?

 

Perhaps because there was no Tory or UKIP candidate for them to vote for. For all the boastful and hopeful Labour supporters out there, the Labour candidate lost his deposit as he did not get enough votes.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38184119

 

Full result:

Sarah Olney (Liberal Democrats) - 20,510

Zac Goldsmith (Independent) - 18,638

Christian Wolmar (Labour Party) - 1,515

Howling Laud Hope (The Official Monster Raving Loony Party) - 184

Fiona Natasha Syms, (Independent) - 173

Dominic Francis Stockford, (Christian Peoples Alliance) - 164

Maharaja Jammu and Kashmir (One Love Party) - 67

David Powell - 32

Turnout = 53.6%

Ms Olney was elected with a majority of 1,872 votes, compared with a Conservative Party majority of 23,015 at the 2015 general election.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, Loeilad said:

"I also managed to spell Will Self's name correctly which is something that you failed to do" - possibly the weakest argument on the whole thread but nevertheless very telling

 

 

(- it also appears he couldn't comment on the message nor the messenger as he didn't know who it was!)

 

Do YOU know the name of every single messenger or person who gives an opinion about Brexit, that would of course include al the members of the EU countries past presidents of the USA, Prime ministers and former PMs, cabinet ministers current and ex,  MPs current and ex, social media persons and the rest of the hoi polloi?

 

I certainly don't nor do I care.

 

You mentioned his name, I looked it up and was unimpressed by what I read about him. If that upsets you please find someone who cares and tell them but don't tell me as I don't.

[rockingrobin]

14 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

 

Why did they vote Lib/Dem?

 

Perhaps because there was no Tory or UKIP candidate for them to vote for. For all the boastful and hopeful Labour supporters out there, the Labour candidate lost his deposit as he did not get enough votes.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38184119

 

Full result:

Sarah Olney (Liberal Democrats) - 20,510

Zac Goldsmith (Independent) - 18,638

Christian Wolmar (Labour Party) - 1,515

Howling Laud Hope (The Official Monster Raving Loony Party) - 184

Fiona Natasha Syms, (Independent) - 173

Dominic Francis Stockford, (Christian Peoples Alliance) - 164

Maharaja Jammu and Kashmir (One Love Party) - 67

David Powell - 32

Turnout = 53.6%

Ms Olney was elected with a majority of 1,872 votes, compared with a Conservative Party majority of 23,015 at the 2015 general election.

Of course there was a Conservative and UKIP candidate

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/10/tory-mps-campaign-for-independent-candidate-zac-goldsmith-for-ri/

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37786753

Zac Goldsmith

[SaintLouisBlues]

5 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

Of course there was a Conservative and UKIP candidate

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/10/tory-mps-campaign-for-independent-candidate-zac-goldsmith-for-ri/

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37786753

Zac Goldsmith

As the link points out, there was no official Tory candidate. Goldsmith stood as an Independent, and the Conservatives decided not to put forward their own candidate

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, Loeilad said:

"I also managed to spell Will Self's name correctly which is something that you failed to do" - possibly the weakest argument on the whole thread but nevertheless very telling

 

 

(- it also appears he couldn't comment on the message nor the messenger as he didn't know who it was!)

 

"but nevertheless very telling"

 

And this from a poster who was whinging about receiving a personal attack in the replies to his post quoting Will Self. SOP for remainers. Soooo predictable.

[Khun Han]

31 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

Of course there was a Conservative and UKIP candidate

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/10/tory-mps-campaign-for-independent-candidate-zac-goldsmith-for-ri/

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37786753

Zac Goldsmith

 

Disappointed to see you playing games Robin. Thought you were better than that.

[AlexRich]

Looks like 'project fear' is turning into 'project reality' ... this story is about Banks ... but why would any company have their European HQ in the UK?

 

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/exclusive-banks-to-britain-stagger-brexit-over-years-or-we-could-leave/ar-AAl3qca?li=AA54rU&ocid=mailsignout

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

 

Why did they vote Lib/Dem?

 

Perhaps because there was no Tory or UKIP candidate for them to vote for. For all the boastful and hopeful Labour supporters out there, the Labour candidate lost his deposit as he did not get enough votes.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38184119

 

Full result:

Sarah Olney (Liberal Democrats) - 20,510

Zac Goldsmith (Independent) - 18,638

Christian Wolmar (Labour Party) - 1,515

Howling Laud Hope (The Official Monster Raving Loony Party) - 184

Fiona Natasha Syms, (Independent) - 173

Dominic Francis Stockford, (Christian Peoples Alliance) - 164

Maharaja Jammu and Kashmir (One Love Party) - 67

David Powell - 32

Turnout = 53.6%

Ms Olney was elected with a majority of 1,872 votes, compared with a Conservative Party majority of 23,015 at the 2015 general election.

 

You think Zac isn't a conservative?

 

Zac and Sarah we're both against LHR third runway. Thus the seat was contested on Brexit.

 

Result was biggest swing to LibDems since Christchurch in 1993

 

I think Brexiteers will be feeling a bit of a draft.....

[billd766]

5 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

Of course there was a Conservative and UKIP candidate

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/10/tory-mps-campaign-for-independent-candidate-zac-goldsmith-for-ri/

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37786753

Zac Goldsmith

 

Really?

 

So Zac Goldsmith was an official Tory candidate and supported all the way by the Tory party?

 

And the official UKIP candidate was also Zac Goldsmith.

 

So let me try to understand your post.

 

Zac Goldsmith standing as an independent for the seat he had resigned from was actually second place. So where did he come as an official Tory candidate and when did he he join UKIP?

 

Or is the truth for want of a better term that there was NO Tory or UKIP candidate?

 

I cannot understand how you have come to the conclusion so differently to the official election results. Please explain how you got there.

[Laughing Gravy]

Just to get an idea of what the EU is like and how they operate just look at some interviews of Martin Schulz and you will see the mentality the EU has. Ownership of countries and forcing them to do as they say. No wonder there is a populist,, anti establishment uprising and just shows why the UK and other countries want out of this shambolic, control orientated 'cub'.

 

http://www.itv.com/news/2015-06-17/martin-schultz-britain-belongs-to-the-eu/

 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/european-union-in-trouble-says-parliament-president-schulz-a-1065306.html

 

http://www.euronews.com/2016/05/12/martin-schulz-the-european-union-is-in-a-dismal-state

 

[sandyf]

23 hours ago, jpinx said:

No !  I most certainly do not *ACCEPT* that situation. 

Your words

" but I do wonder how Joe Public is expected to make an "informed decision" when all that is available to him is the spinning top that is the mockery of political truth.  "

 

You wonder how they could make an "informed decision" but deny the outcome could be an "uninformed decision".

Good one.

[jpinx]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Your words

" but I do wonder how Joe Public is expected to make an "informed decision" when all that is available to him is the spinning top that is the mockery of political truth.  "

 

You wonder how they could make an "informed decision" but deny the outcome could be an "uninformed decision".

Good one.

You're the one who is spinning....   I do not accept that people must be so badly misinformed, but I am not in denial.  Perhaps you could exercise a little bit more basic English comprehension and a little bit less rhetoric and the point would be clear for you and RuamRudy.

[AlexRich]

17 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Really?

 

So Zac Goldsmith was an official Tory candidate and supported all the way by the Tory party?

 

And the official UKIP candidate was also Zac Goldsmith.

 

So let me try to understand your post.

 

Zac Goldsmith standing as an independent for the seat he had resigned from was actually second place. So where did he come as an official Tory candidate and when did he he join UKIP?

 

Or is the truth for want of a better term that there was NO Tory or UKIP candidate?

 

I cannot understand how you have come to the conclusion so differently to the official election results. Please explain how you got there.

 

So, in your view, the Conservative party are not concerned by the result? 

 

All of the Tory MPs that won a seat from the Liberal Democrats in the last election are unconcerned?

 

I think "hard" Brexit just got a little bit softer.

 

 

[jpinx]

28 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

So, in your view, the Conservative party are not concerned by the result? 

 

All of the Tory MPs that won a seat from the Liberal Democrats in the last election are unconcerned?

 

I think "hard" Brexit just got a little bit softer.

 

 

The option for a "hard" Brexit only existed immediately after the result was announced and if Camoron had fulfilled his promises to the electorate.  He could have invoked Art50 immediately and we would be out by now -- the short term pain would have passed and people would have got what they voted for.   Unfortunately the spineless politician ran away from his responsibilities and left everyone wondering what was so terrible that it scared the same PM away after his much vaunted promises of acting on the will of the people.  The subsequent selection of a new PM, and the extensive debates on how to proceed have meant the moment for a hard Brexit is long past.  Now we are faced with some indescribably messy fudge being concocted and needing those same treacherous MP's to debate and pass in a vote, all of which creates opportunities for the remainers to fabricate as many excuses as they can to deflect the process.  The only, but  considerable, advantage of the delay is that there are numerous elections across Europe, most of which are proving to be less predictable as time goes by, and which are more likely to favour a reasonble Brexit, if not a total re-structuring of the administration in Brussels so that the EU becomes less EU and much more EFTA. 

Edited December 4, 2016 by jpinx

[Srikcir]

17 minutes ago, jpinx said:

He could have invoked Art50 immediately

Thought the Parliament had to approve invoking Article 50 as the court recently ruled - now being appealed.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/03/parliament-must-trigger-brexit-high-court-rules

Apparently not considered by pro-Bexiteers or Cameron during the Brexit campaign.

[jpinx]

3 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Thought the Parliament had to approve invoking Article 50 as the court recently ruled - now being appealed.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/03/parliament-must-trigger-brexit-high-court-rules

Apparently not considered by pro-Bexiteers or Cameron during the Brexit campaign.

Indeed -- but we wait the verdict.  It may be that the PM can invoke Art50.  We must wait to get the final verdict.