May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[7by7]

15 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

 

 

Well not really when we have had headlines like this  pasted below and many more since the referendum result. Some posters on here were calling for this and supporting it and now have 'softened their rhetoric', to a wanting to know how we are doing the leave from the EU. The government has committed to Brexit, sadly many of the remain camp have not.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/25/could-britain-actually-have-a-second-referendum-on-brexit/

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-petition-latest-eu-referendum-rules-change-force-second-vote-poll-government-a7102486.html

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629324

 

Do try and keep up to date. Those articles are all from last June and about one subject; a Parliamentary petition calling for a second referendum.

 

All petitions which receive more than 100,000 signatures are debated in Parliament; this one was debated on 5th September.  

 

As with most such debates on these petitions, the motion lapsed and the debate closed without a question being put.

 

Which is what will happen to the current petition, Debate the possibility that the "Will of the People" has changed since Brexit, should it pass the 100,000 signature mark and be debated as well.

 

The government is committed to Brexit and will make sure that it happens; even if it means resorting to three line whips to get any necessary bills through the Commons.

 

As explained before, once passed by the Commons the Lords can only delay or amend a Bill; they cannot reject it outright.

[jpinx]

5 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Do try and keep up to date. Those articles are all from last June and about one subject; a Parliamentary petition calling for a second referendum.

 

All petitions which receive more than 100,000 signatures are debated in Parliament; this one was debated on 5th September.  

 

As with most such debates on these petitions, the motion lapsed and the debate closed without a question being put.

 

Which is what will happen to the current petition, Debate the possibility that the "Will of the People" has changed since Brexit, should it pass the 100,000 signature mark and be debated as well.

 

The government is committed to Brexit and will make sure that it happens; even if it means resorting to three line whips to get any necessary bills through the Commons.

 

As explained before, once passed by the Commons the Lords can only delay or amend a Bill; they cannot reject it outright.

One could make a good case for three-line whips being undemocratic

[Laughing Gravy]

8 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Do try and keep up to date. Those articles are all from last June and about one subject; a Parliamentary petition calling for a second referendum.

I am up to date thank you. The same story being passed around and used by remoaners not accepting the result and now moving onto wanting to know what and how the government are going to deliver Brexit which for me is ridiculous, like telling the enemy your battle plans.. I didn't put you in that category.

It is quite ironic that everyone knew what they were voting for, now those who lost, seem to cling onto the small print of what was and wasn't said. So with remain, if we lost we should be given a full detailed plan of what will or won't happen and how.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Laughing Gravy

[7by7]

13 minutes ago, jpinx said:

One could make a good case for three-line whips being undemocratic

Maybe so; but they are part of the UK's Parliamentary procedure used by all parties, and have been for a long time.

 

Remember, in the UK MPs are not delegates, they are representatives.

 

It is also very rare for people to vote for their MP as an individual, instead they vote for a particular party and expect their MP to follow the party line..

Edited December 27, 2016 by 7by7
correct schoolboy error!

[7by7]

3 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I am up to date thank you. The same story being passed around and used by remoaners not accepting the result and now moving onto wanting to know what and how the government are going to deliver Brexit which for me is ridiculous, like telling the enemy your battle plans.. I didn't put you in that category.

It is quite ironic that everyone knew what they were voting for, now those who lost, seem to cling onto the small print of what was and wasn't said. So with remain, if we lost we should be given a full detailed plan of what will or won't happen and how.

 Up to date?

 

When you use 6 month old reports about a story which died 3 months ago to 'prove' your point?

 

BTW, as many, if not more, Brexit supporters want the government to reveal their plans in advance as Remain supporters do.

 

Which is not surprising as most Brexit supporters want the softest of all Brexits; ditch the bits we don't like, keep the bits we do. Of course, that is not going to happen; the other 27 will see to that.

[Laughing Gravy]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

Which is not surprising as most Brexit supporters want the softest of all Brexits; ditch the bits we don't like, keep the bits we do. Of course, that is not going to happen; the other 27 will see to that.

Really so you how do you know such bold statements? Please don't reply to me as I can't be bothered responding to such ludicrous statements in the festive season. I already know which part of the glass you see it all.

[7by7]

1 minute ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Really so you how do you know such bold statements? Please don't reply to me as I can't be bothered responding to such ludicrous statements in the festive season. I already know which part of the glass you see it all.

 

If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask the question!

 

I will reply, though; I know it from the many statements made in the media (printed and broadcast, right, left and centre, pro and anti Brexit) here in the UK both before and since the referendum.

 

One of the advantages of actually living in the country we are discussing.

[Laughing Gravy]

16 hours ago, jpinx said:

The only circumvention here is the Remainers trying to get around the result of the referendum - on which result the then-PM assured the electorate action would be taken to respect the wishes of the people.   Thank goodness TM has continued in that vein or democracy would be lying dead in the gutter.

 

Once again this vile woman, thwarting democracy is trying to overturn the will of the people, slow it down and do everything possible to make it be a failure, so they can say, we should have stayed in the crumbling EU The sad thing here is some posters actually think she is trying to provide an avenue for MP's to have a say in the brexit negotiations. As you say here thank goodness TM is not falling for it. The case by some remoaners is becoming futile, tedious and embarrassing.

 

"She told The Daily Telegraph: "[There needs to be] proper debate in both houses and an act of Parliament. A resolution or a motion wouldn't be debated in both houses."

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/747756/Gina-Miller-Brexit-challenge-Article-50-EU

[jpinx]

You have to laugh at the French sense of humour...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38442586

 

:D:D

[Grouse]

Are you lot STILL going on?

 

Here's a point: I'm sure we all agree that Brexit is "a big deal"; probably the most important issue (except TM's leather trousers) for 40 years! What puzzles me is why the hard Brexiteers so strongly resist any idea of re-testing the original decision or testing the proposed way forward? Why is that? Is it because they feel they got lucky but maybe not get lucky again?

 

I posted a piece recently that showed the vast majority of Brexiteers would not agree with anything that cost them 100 pounds. I think we all know the price will be much more than that!

 

?

Edited December 28, 2016 by Grouse

[SheungWan]

The upholders of democracy against 'vile women'. Yes that would be the defenders of Royal Prerogative so far 1-0 down against the UK High Court and waiting to be put out of their misery against the UK Supreme Court.

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, SheungWan said:

The upholders of democracy against 'vile women'. Yes that would be the defenders of Royal Prerogative so far 1-0 down against the UK High Court and waiting to be put out of their misery against the UK Supreme Court.

Some years ago Tony Benn tried to get rid of the Royal Prerogative but failed because it was an easy way of reducing MP's working hours. It is only ever supposed to be used when it is the will of parliament, anything else is an abuse of that power.

[Laughing Gravy]

10 hours ago, Grouse said:

Here's a point: I'm sure we all agree that Brexit is "a big deal"; probably the most important issue (except TM's leather trousers) for 40 years! What puzzles me is why the hard Brexiteers so strongly resist any idea of re-testing the original decision or testing the proposed way forward? Why is that? Is it because they feel they got lucky but maybe not get lucky again?

Grouse the UK tried and tried to get a deal that suited us but the bullish EU have never listened and slapped us down. Since the referendum they have consistently bullied, ridiculed and shouted down the UK and politicians. There was no luck at all in the referendum result. If it was more fair and the government didn't have the 9 million pound leaflets and the biased mainstream media on their side the result would have been even greater. The way the EU are behaving since that is outrageous. It has been likened to a divorce but in a divorce it is usually split equally, but the EU want the UK crippled and have shown to be like a battering spouse to their partner .

 

As for re testing it was stated at the beginning of the referendum. the result would be final not the best of three, so that really should be dropped, as that is the real reason behind this Gina Miller court case, even some TV posters seem to deny it but the article below and others state it differently.

 

Obviously there is a difference of opinion between the people but what should be, is that the UK should get the best deal. The EU doesn't want that and is playing right into the hands of the remoaners and they are that name, as they should let the people decision stand and support the UK getting the best deal from a crumbling EU. After all the scaremongering from the leave campaign and the apocalyptic meltdown that would happen, has clearly shown that it was rubbish and credibility from the side has dwindled away.

 

I am hoping that come the time article 50 is triggered that the remain camp will start to behave like adults. If they are unhappy they have a chance to complain at the next general election.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/747936/stop-brexit-court-case-2nd-EU-referendum-article-50-Jo-Maugham

[Laughing Gravy]

10 hours ago, Grouse said:

I posted a piece recently that showed the vast majority of Brexiteers would not agree with anything that cost them 100 pounds. I think we all know the price will be much more than that!

You maybe right that it will cost much more is that an argument we should stay in the EU. Defiantly not one for me. Like  married couples who are unhappy should they carry on together and not get divorced because it is going to cost? Also that one part of the partnership is dragging the other down and costing a fortune. For me they should split, go there separate ways and try to works things amicably that benefits both parties. Not get all the relatives around to shout and bully the other partner and threaten them with ruin and ostracize them from the family they have been a part of and contributed handsomely.

 

It is time the EU started to treat the UK better and realize it is better to have a UK as a friend than an enemy. The UK was never really fully into the EU or we would have joined the Euro. The UK has been a reluctant contributor and the rets of the EU have known that. Threatening to cripple them because they are leaving the family is quite frankly pathetic and even though I don't acknowledge the term Hard Brexit I can see if the attitude doesn't change from the EU then that will happen.

 

The PM Theresa May is aware I am sure that if she doesn't deliver then at the next election she will be destroyed and so will her party. Presently she has no threat but that can change.

[Grouse]

After all this time you still don't understand soft Brexit and hard Brexit!You still think I am not an adult because I don't agree with you. You wish to leave the EU even if it costs you significant money; 90% of the population would not. So why not test the proposed way forward before it's too late. (BTW, in a clean break divorce, the woman takes all but then gets NO alimony)

[Grouse]

After all this time you still don't understand soft Brexit and hard Brexit!You still think I am not an adult because I don't agree with you. You wish to leave the EU even if it costs you significant money; 90% of the population would not. So why not test the proposed way forward before it's too late. (BTW, in a clean break divorce, the woman takes all but then gets NO alimony)

[Grouse]

100 pages of rational debate! Well done one and all ?

[HauptmannUK]

On 26/12/2016 at 7:20 PM, Khun Han said:

 

 "Most of the UK press portrays EU politicians as bumbling idiots or drunkards. They are not. For the most part they completely outclass May and the 'Dad's Army' of Brexit ministers she has appointed""

 

Complete and utter tosh. They are a rabble of goons, creeps and yes men. And, if Germany pulled the plug, it would be back to the Dog And Duck (or, more appropriately, La Morte Subite) for most of them.

You are obviously unaware of the background of a lot of EU politicians. Unlike most UK MP's the majority have had successful careers outside politics.  Intellectually they outgun the likes of David Davis and the failed Home Secretary Mrs May. Unfortunately you have been reading too much Sun/Mail/Express 'Opinion'.

A lot of folks are going to be in for a really nasty shock once negotiations get under way and reality starts to bite...

[petermik]

7 hours ago, HauptmannUK said:

 

A lot of folks are going to be in for a really nasty shock once negotiations get under way and reality starts to bite...

Are you talking about the 15,000 bureaucrats whose salaries are greater than our own prime minister,s

 

[Laughing Gravy]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

After all this time you still don't understand soft Brexit and hard Brexit!You still think I am not an adult because I don't agree with you. You wish to leave the EU even if it costs you significant money; 90% of the population would not. So why not test the proposed way forward before it's too late. (BTW, in a clean break divorce, the woman takes all but then gets NO alimony)

I know what people are saying what s hard and soft but really it is changing the goal post from the referendum mandate.

 

This is how desperate the remoaners have become. Trying to find a case of one woman who has been in the UK and trying to justify the absolution of the referendum result is desperate and simply pathetic.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/28/dutch-woman-with-two-british-children-told-to-leave-uk-after-24-years

 

Well I didn't realize that the EU was the female. If you are in Thailand and this is a Thai forum, it is 50 50. Are you being prejudice Grouse? Your argument of costing more money (90 percent) is not why the people voted to leave and not in line with a female perspective of talking or giving it all How about if the UK said "you know what Brussels, we are paying you nothing. Go and see where the sun don't shine. Sadly they won't but what could the EU do, except do what they are doing now, spit their dummy and throw the rattle out of the pram" The EU wants it all and alimony which they think the other EU countries are looking upon them as favourably. 2017 will be very interesting and possibly be the rise of the right wing which I am jot 100 percent with but the EU deserve what is coming.

 

 I.would like to know where you got that statistic of 90 percent of the population, as I know you often dwell on facts.

[Laughing Gravy]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

You still think I am not an adult because I don't agree with you.

Where have you got this from? I really look forward to seeing this. Yes we disagree from different sides of the fence. and we debate it. Never not called or thought you were not an adult.

 

[jpinx]

The same protagonists and the same arguments,  the same inability to compromise and get on with Brexit.  It's happening anyway, whatever you might like or not about it.  If you want to influence the way it's going, talk to your MP.

[jpinx]

Some interesting ideas....

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38447743

 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I know what people are saying what s hard and soft but really it is changing the goal post from the referendum mandate.

 

This is how desperate the remoaners have become. Trying to find a case of one woman who has been in the UK and trying to justify the absolution of the referendum result is desperate and simply pathetic.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/28/dutch-woman-with-two-british-children-told-to-leave-uk-after-24-years

 

Well I didn't realize that the EU was the female. If you are in Thailand and this is a Thai forum, it is 50 50. Are you being prejudice Grouse? Your argument of costing more money (90 percent) is not why the people voted to leave and not in line with a female perspective of talking or giving it all How about if the UK said "you know what Brussels, we are paying you nothing. Go and see where the sun don't shine. Sadly they won't but what could the EU do, except do what they are doing now, spit their dummy and throw the rattle out of the pram" The EU wants it all and alimony which they think the other EU countries are looking upon them as favourably. 2017 will be very interesting and possibly be the rise of the right wing which I am jot 100 percent with but the EU deserve what is coming.

 

 I.would like to know where you got that statistic of 90 percent of the population, as I know you often dwell on facts.

 

I posted an article recently from The Independent (a newspaper)

 

EU is offering a clean break divorce Or alimony. We can choose. Me? I would stay married but move to the spare room ?

 

Are you suggesting we just break the law? We COULD but not conducive to good relations.

 

I can see a major re-adjustment of the political landscape. The numpties will support UKIP. The money grabbers will support the Con Party. The lefty loonies will continue to fly the red flag. The thinking people will support the Liberals or a new centre left party. Interesting times indeed. Get ready for coalitions!

[Grouse]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-live-updates-finances-money-worse-off-article-50-a7468411.html%3Famp?client=safari

 

for Gravy ?

[7by7]

17 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Grouse the UK tried and tried to get a deal that suited us but the bullish EU have never listened and slapped us down. Since the referendum they have consistently bullied, ridiculed and shouted down the UK and politicians.

 

As negotiations haven't even started yet, the above comment is complete and utter pony with no basis at all in fact.

 

Yes, some leaders of the other 27 have said that the UK is not going to get it all our own way, not be able to retain all the benefits of membership whilst ditching all the obligations; but that is only to be expected. You can't leave a club and stop paying your subscription yet expect to continue to benefit from it's facilities!

 

The final deal will be negotiated once Article 50 is triggered. May and her government will try to get a deal which suits the UK, the EU negotiators will try and get a deal which suits the EU. The end result will be, as in all such negotiations, a compromise between the two.

 

You have constantly in this topic remarked that the EU have bullied the UK; maybe it's time you provided some examples.

 

Were we bullied into accepting the budget rebate?

 

Were we bullied into not joining the Schengen area?

 

Were we bullied into not adopting the Euro?

 

 

[SheungWan]

3 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I know what people are saying what s hard and soft but really it is changing the goal post from the referendum mandate.

 

This is how desperate the remoaners have become. Trying to find a case of one woman who has been in the UK and trying to justify the absolution of the referendum result is desperate and simply pathetic.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/28/dutch-woman-with-two-british-children-told-to-leave-uk-after-24-years

 

Well I didn't realize that the EU was the female. If you are in Thailand and this is a Thai forum, it is 50 50. Are you being prejudice Grouse? Your argument of costing more money (90 percent) is not why the people voted to leave and not in line with a female perspective of talking or giving it all How about if the UK said "you know what Brussels, we are paying you nothing. Go and see where the sun don't shine. Sadly they won't but what could the EU do, except do what they are doing now, spit their dummy and throw the rattle out of the pram" The EU wants it all and alimony which they think the other EU countries are looking upon them as favourably. 2017 will be very interesting and possibly be the rise of the right wing which I am jot 100 percent with but the EU deserve what is coming.

 

 I.would like to know where you got that statistic of 90 percent of the population, as I know you often dwell on facts.

 

The referendum decision did not give the Hard Brexiteers the mandate to set the conditions and process for Brexit, though they constantly blag as if they have that mandate. Consequently they resolutely deny even the existence of a Soft Brexit alternative and absolutely refuse to even refer to it in this forum.

[Khun Han]

9 hours ago, HauptmannUK said:

You are obviously unaware of the background of a lot of EU politicians. Unlike most UK MP's the majority have had successful careers outside politics.  Intellectually they outgun the likes of David Davis and the failed Home Secretary Mrs May. Unfortunately you have been reading too much Sun/Mail/Express 'Opinion'.

A lot of folks are going to be in for a really nasty shock once negotiations get under way and reality starts to bite...

 

 More tosh. You're bigging up people who are mostly the product of second-rate countries, where they were successful because they learned how to work the highly corrupt systems in those countries. Not for nothing is the EU's main base in Belgium, a country long established in the business world as the European mecca of corruption. This competed to the UK, which has been at the world's top table throughout it's modern history (again, for very good reasons). And you write as though our current ministers are lone rangers, not supported by a civil sevice which has kept us at said top table.

[Khun Han]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

I posted an article recently from The Independent (a newspaper)

 

EU is offering a clean break divorce Or alimony. We can choose. Me? I would stay married but move to the spare room ?

 

Are you suggesting we just break the law? We COULD but not conducive to good relations.

 

I can see a major re-adjustment of the political landscape. The numpties will support UKIP. The money grabbers will support the Con Party. The lefty loonies will continue to fly the red flag. The thinking people will support the Liberals or a new centre left party. Interesting times indeed. Get ready for coalitions!

 

Correction: the LibDems will get the support they've always got, from people with 'nice' accents and slightly (but not greatly) privileged educations, who are often far less intelligent than they like to think they are .

[Richard W]

7 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

This is how desperate the remoaners have become. Trying to find a case of one woman who has been in the UK and trying to justify the absolution of the referendum result is desperate and simply pathetic.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/28/dutch-woman-with-two-british-children-told-to-leave-uk-after-24-years

 

Your interpretation makes no sense.  Actually, there are quite a few EU citizen home-makers who are now finding that they have been in the UK unlawfully.  (In some apparent cases, it turns out that they are unwittingly covered by Surinder Singh because their husband had been working in her country before they came to the UK.)  The woman in question simply got the unthinking letter normally issued to those whose application for an EU residence document is refused; it appears,  though the article doesn't make this clear, that she already has permanent residence and just needs the document to confirm it.  The unthinking letter was already being issued before the referendum.