Theresa May warned of risk of constitutional crisis over Brexit deal

[MJP]

Just now, Grouse said:

 

I don't believe May has a strategy. She keeps changing her stance.

 

I tend to agree. I can see toys being thrown from both prams and the UK going straight down the WTO rules route. Hell, dragging it all out's going to be even more painful for both anyway.

[Khun Han]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

But crucially JAG doesn't say anything racist, xenophobic or isolationist. Don't you see the difference? It's the first time I have every heard rational explanations from someone who voted leave. Clearly JAG is no numpty!

 

There have been plenty of perfactly rational attempts to put the same points over, but they are routinely shouted down.

[Khun Han]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

I don't believe May has a strategy. She keeps changing her stance.

 

There is nothing wrong with developing and adapting strategies, with having some fluidity. I don't see any u-turns or major changes of direction so far.

[MJP]

26 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

There is nothing wrong with developing and adapting strategies, with having some fluidity. I don't see any u-turns or major changes of direction so far.

 

I've been getting away with the same line for years!

[Xircal]

Sturgeon knows which side her bread's buttered on and wants to retain as much as she can when Brexit takes place. Can't blame her for that especially since Scotland was receiving far more back than it was paying for EU membership.

 

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

There have been plenty of perfactly rational attempts to put the same points over, but they are routinely shouted down.

 

I'm just saying that JAGs explanation was the first one that I have heard that did not cite anything even slightly xenophobic but did bring up the issue of the different legal systems. There was nothing to shout down. I agreed with his points. The only issue where we differ is that I believe some changes can be made within the EU generally.

 

OK now? ?

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

There is nothing wrong with developing and adapting strategies, with having some fluidity. I don't see any u-turns or major changes of direction so far.

1) allowing parliamentary input

 

2) leaving the BoE independence alone

 

You can see the effect of these in the fact that the rout of Sterling has temporarily halted. These are the reasons given by traders.

 

What is there to adapt and develop? Brexiteers keep saying Brexit means Brexit. There is no such thing as hard Brexit or soft Brexit!

 

Why not tell us what you would like to see. Specifically.

[RuamRudy]

10 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

No, I'm not a part of PM May's government.

 

And it's absurd to claim that they don't have a strategy.

 

Much like it would be absurd to think that neither side had not prepared for a possible Brexit vote passing?

[RuamRudy]

14 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

You are right. It's actually somewhere between being courteous and seen to be reasonable and pandering to the self important egos of some leaders. Sturgeon rants, demands, threatens and claims things like she could veto Brexit (even suggesting May told her so), that Scotland would be welcome to stay in the EU (even though Tusk and other EU leaders made it clear that isn't the case) and ignores the fact more Scots voted to remain part of the UK than remain in EU. But that's her one agenda, and she she won't give up being as divisive as possible to try and further her one goal which is Scottish independence at any cost. 

 

The real issue is May's continued assertion she can simply use the Royal, really government, Prerogative rather than subject the referendum result to parliament for debating and approval or rejection.

 

She knows parliament are likely to over turn the referendum result, which would bring her short lived government down as there would be massive calls for a general election. An election fought on EU membership would split the Tories beyond repair. She will do anything to try to avoid either.

 

Most law experts commentating on the on-going trial challenging the government's right to by pass parliament see it as a serious threat to the UK's parliamentary process and further erosion of parliamentary powers. 

 

This is already a constitutional crisis whatever happens now. All brought about by the arrogant Cameron and his cronies who never dreamed they'd loose. Badly thought out process left to simple majority winner takes all and no plan what so ever for implementing a leave decision. Now those same Tories, plus or minus one or two, are trying to circumvent parliament to protect their own political party and their governments life span. 

 

Sturgeon isn't interested in the UK - she wants to destroy it and can't be trusted. The Welsh and Northern Irish leaders seem less self important and media seeking.  The Tories simply want to rule and now aren't even bothered about parliamentary process.

 

It really is a shambles with the lunatics running the asylum. 

 

 

 

Apologies if I sound like Sturgeon's biggest fan, but of all politicians today she would be aomng one of the last who I would suggest could not be trusted. Her colours are well and truly nailed to the mast, and even if you do not agree with her, there has been nothing underhand about her actions. When you say that she doesn't care about the UK, I have no doubt whatsoever that, were it to break up, she would want to make sure that the remnants were as stable and secure as possible. The last thing an independent Scotland would want would be a volatile and unstable neighbour.

 

Media seeking? That is the nature of the world we live in. But do you think that she actively encourages the vicious and endlessly nasty headlines in the Telegraph or Mail, knowing that the article comments will be bursting with the most foul anti-Scottish invective? Actually, maybe she does - it all helps the cause.

[vogie]

11 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Are you privy to TM's plan that makes you so sure that she was simply keeping her cards close to her chest? Has the PM actually got a strategy all worked out? We would, I am sure, love to hear more from you about it?

 

Do you honestly think that TM would actually let NS know anything about her plans to leave the EU when NS is trying to undermine the whole process? Maybe the rest of the UK is not as daft as some Scots would have us believe.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

Do you honestly think that TM would actually let NS know anything about her plans to leave the EU when NS is trying to undermine the whole process? Maybe the rest of the UK is not as daft as some Scots would have us believe.

 

So May's offer of including the devolved leaders in the process was a lie?

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

So May's offer of including the devolved leaders in the process was a lie?

I do hope so, why don't we invite Jean Claude Juncker to the brexit table too? 

[RuamRudy]

22 minutes ago, vogie said:

I do hope so, why don't we invite Jean Claude Juncker to the brexit table too? 

 

But why would  EU leaders trust her if she openly lies to the leaders of her devolved parliaments? It is hardly the tactics of a master strategist to show yourself as untrustworthy prior to going into the most important negotiations in our country's recent history.

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

But why would  EU leaders trust her if she openly lies to the leaders of her devolved parliaments? It is hardly the tactics of a master strategist to show yourself as untrustworthy prior to going into the most important negotiations in our country's recent history.

 

Nobody knows what TM stratagies are, only a fool would show their hand at a card table. And as for lies, well this might surprise you but all politicians lie, except NS of course. ??

[Grouse]

37 minutes ago, vogie said:

I do hope so, why don't we invite Jean Claude Juncker to the brexit table too? 

 

Actually, why not? It's a serious issue for all, so bring everyone into the tent. It's not as if we're negotiating the price for a load of Tarmac for the drive!

[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

Nobody knows what TM stratagies are, only a fool would show their hand at a card table. And as for lies, well this might surprise you but all politicians lie, except NS of course. ??

 

But we're not playing 3-card brag. Not even bridge. It's at least as complex as the Manhatten Project! Why do you think the two sides are enemies? Did you suffer bullying?

[RuamRudy]

 
Actually, why not? It's a serious issue for all, so bring everyone into the tent. It's not as if we're negotiating the price for a load of Tarmac for the drive!

Exactly right - the end result will be a Brexit; nobody is disputing that, but somehow our Brexiter friends seem to think that a successful outcome is a winner / loser scenario, which will ultimately benefit nobody.

The last thing we should want is another Treaty of Versailles.

[vogie]

54 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

But we're not playing 3-card brag. Not even bridge. It's at least as complex as the Manhatten Project! Why do you think the two sides are enemies? Did you suffer bullying?

 

Couldn't resist another snide remark could we Grouse, why are your replies so condesending, are you incaplable of replying to a post without throwing an insult in. Would you insult somebody face to face like you do on here?

[Grouse]

10 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

Couldn't resist another snide remark could we Grouse, why are your replies so condesending, are you incaplable of replying to a post without throwing an insult in. Would you insult somebody face to face like you do on here?

 

I just respond to purile comments as I hear them. I assure you that I am exactly the same in the pub as on here. I have no desire to insult you, I just wondered what was the root cause behind some of your comments. My view is that all sides want a win win solution ?

 

Sorry if I offended you.

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

I just respond to purile comments as I hear them. I assure you that I am exactly the same in the pub as on here. I have no desire to insult you, I just wondered what was the root cause behind some of your comments. My view is that all sides want a win win solution ?

 

Sorry if I offended you.

 

Just because my opinions don't tally with yours,  that doesn't make them purile, if you think the opposite please don't respond. And I too often wonder what are the root causes of your comments, you appear to want to belittle people all the time (except for the usual suspects of course). You may have a good education? but you don't have the social skills to interact with other people, which leads me to question your intelligence. Maybe you need councilling for your supercillious attitude.

You need to grow up and stop the name calling!

We are all brexiteers now, so we all need to pull together.

[Scott]

Grammar and spelling Nazis are not appreciated.   One post removed.   Stay on topic or face a suspension.  

[Grouse]

It is my opinion that TM should bring everyone into the tent including Sturgeon and Merkel and Junkers and lay out the position. There is a way forward that can satisfy everyone. It is not a zero sum game. (It's not the case that someone has to lose for someone else to win)

 

To put it plainly, there are common problems across the EU. Maybe, just maybe, there is a common way to resolve this. Anyone see Conrad Black on Question Time?

[Khun Han]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Much like it would be absurd to think that neither side had not prepared for a possible Brexit vote passing?

 

PM May's government is not former PM Cameron's government.

[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

PM May's government is not former PM Cameron's government.

 

5 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

PM May's government is not former PM Cameron's government.

 

But the Sir Humphries are the same. 

[Khun Han]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

But we're not playing 3-card brag. Not even bridge. It's at least as complex as the Manhatten Project! Why do you think the two sides are enemies? Did you suffer bullying?

 

We have been repeatedly told that the EU is going to make an example of the UK, even though it will go against the EU's economic interests to do so. Just about every statement coming out of the EU on this matter has been a tough one, and the EU has so far rebuffed attempts to reach out for preliminary discussions from the UK. The UK government is not going to lay it's cards on the table until the appropriate time.

[Khun Han]

58 minutes ago, Grouse said:

It is my opinion that TM should bring everyone into the tent including Sturgeon and Merkel and Junkers and lay out the position. There is a way forward that can satisfy everyone. It is not a zero sum game. (It's not the case that someone has to lose for someone else to win)

 

To put it plainly, there are common problems across the EU. Maybe, just maybe, there is a common way to resolve this. Anyone see Conrad Black on Question Time?

 

PM May has already had meetings with all three of the people you name. There will be a time for bigger group discussions.

[Khun Han]

9 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

 

But the Sir Humphries are the same. 

 

The Sir Humphreys offer advice on policies and strategies laid out by the sitting government.

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, Khun Han said:

 

We have been repeatedly told that the EU is going to make an example of the UK, even though it will go against the EU's economic interests to do so. Just about every statement coming out of the EU on this matter has been a tough one, and the EU has so far rebuffed attempts to reach out for preliminary discussions from the UK. The UK government is not going to lay it's cards on the table until the appropriate time.

 

The truth of the matter is that the EU are in an invidious situation. I honestly believe that the wise negotiator should recognise that and try to understand their real strategic imperatives. We can then explain whatever we have distilled from the referendum and see what solution is possible. Do any Brexiteers truely not want to have access to the single market (or whatever technical phrase)? I'll bet that if there are any they are NOT in the majority ?

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

I just respond to purile comments as I hear them. I assure you that I am exactly the same in the pub as on here. I have no desire to insult you, I just wondered what was the root cause behind some of your comments. My view is that all sides want a win win solution ?

 

Sorry if I offended you.

 

But never to any of the peurile or inane comments from remainers, so it can't be the peurility that's triggering your responses.

[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

The Sir Humphreys offer advice on policies and strategies laid out by the sitting government.

 

Hmm. Not really. The civil service does all the leg work, all the back office stuff. Ministers then get to decide which direction to go