Theresa May warned of risk of constitutional crisis over Brexit deal

[Grouse]

10 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

PM May has already had meetings with all three of the people you name. There will be a time for bigger group discussions.

 

Good. Was she open and frank? Seems she wasn't with Mrs Sturgeon....

[Khun Han]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

 

Hmm. Not really. The civil service does all the leg work, all the back office stuff. Ministers then get to decide which direction to go

 

We're more-or-less in agreement. But a lot of the legwork is to explore the pros and cons of policies laid out by the sitting government.

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

But never to any of the peurile or inane comments from remainers, so it can't be the peurility that's triggering your responses.

 

I am possibly guilty of that. Got an example?

[Khun Han]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Good. Was she open and frank? Seems she wasn't with Mrs Sturgeon....

 

And with good reason. Sturgeon has a lot to do to prove her worth. And a start would be listening more closely to what people are actually saying, so she doesn't keep making claims that are patently untrue. In fact, talking in public a lot less-in-general would stand her in better stead.

[Khun Han]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

I am possibly guilty of that. Got an example?

 

Well, I have to be careful here, but there is one poster with a rather long-winded five syllable user name who has an entire catalogue of them.

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Well, I have to be careful here, but there is one poster with a rather long-winded five syllable user name who has an entire catalogue of them.

 

4 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Well, I have to be careful here, but there is one poster with a rather long-winded five syllable user name who has an entire catalogue of them.

 

I shall endeavour to be more balanced ?

[Grouse]

9 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

And with good reason. Sturgeon has a lot to do to prove her worth. And a start would be listening more closely to what people are actually saying, so she doesn't keep making claims that are patently untrue. In fact, talking in public a lot less-in-general would stand her in better stead.

 

"Her people" voted about 2/3 to remain. I suspect an even higher percentage wanted to retain the single market. I think she's representing her people rather well ?

[lostinisaan]

 

 

    I truly hope that they'll close the Eurotunnel that connects the UK with Europe. 

 

         Let the UK be totally independent. 

[Grouse]

9 minutes ago, lostinisaan said:

 

 

    I truly hope that they'll close the Eurotunnel that connects the UK with Europe. 

 

         Let the UK be totally independent. 

 

Han, I'll leave that one for you to respond to ?. Jesus wept.

[Khun Han]

18 minutes ago, Grouse said:

29 minutes ago, lostinisaan said:

 

 

    I truly hope that they'll close the Eurotunnel that connects the UK with Europe. 

 

         Let the UK be totally independent. 

 

Han, I'll leave that one for you to respond to ?. Jesus wept.

 

Tongue-in-cheek maybe?

[Grouse]

17 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Tongue-in-cheek maybe?

 

You may well be right. I don't really do subtlety as you know ?

[sandyf]

On 10/24/2016 at 3:13 PM, bangon04 said:

Maybe David Cameron didn't completely think things through........

Must be the understatement of the week.

 

He made 2 pledges and then created a situation that made both an impossibility. Teresa May has taken up the one that she thinks will do her the most good and abandon the pledge to not interfere in devolved politics, a pledge that she was party to.

The answer was so easy, the referendum should have called for a majority to leave in all 4 nations. David Cameron screwed up and Teresa May has ignored the opportunity to put it right.

She may very well find a place in the history books as the PM that broke the UK in more ways than one.

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

 

"Her people" voted about 2/3 to remain. I suspect an even higher percentage wanted to retain the single market. I think she's representing her people rather well ?

 

And all of those 2/3 (including then Home Secretary May) who were in official positions in the Cameron government had a remit to carry out that government's instructions. They're in a different government now, and have a different remit.

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, Khun Han said:

 

And all of those 2/3 (including then Home Secretary May) who were in official positions in the Cameron government had a remit to carry out that government's instructions. They're in a different government now, and have a different remit.

 

Sorry, I don't understand. I was referring to Sturgeon looking after the 2/3 of Scots who voted remain

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

 

Sorry, I don't understand. I was referring to Sturgeon looking after the 2/3 of Scots who voted remain

 

Sorry, bit of a brain fart, was trying to do two things at once . Sturgeon's feisty and a patriotic Scot. Can't fault her on that. She gets truth and fact muddled quite a lot though, and she's prone to shooting her mouth off.

[RuamRudy]

 
Sorry, bit of a brain fart, was trying to do two things at once . Sturgeon's feisty and a patriotic Scot. Can't fault her on that. She gets truth and fact muddled quite a lot though, and she's prone to shooting her mouth off.

Truth and fact muddled quite a lot? Is that brain if yours still trumpeting?

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

19 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

How very true and I agree totally. The other fact is when you bought your first house as you mentioned in the 1980s you were allowed on average 3 to3.5 times your salary after a deposit. Now the problem is 5-7 times your salary, often as a 100%  mortgage with no deposit, so a slight increase in rates cripples most people.

 

People also bought into the 'bigger is better' and 'keep up with the Joneses' mentality buying property in the believe that the equity value would also go up and interest rates would stay relatively similar, which historically are two very dangerous economic concepts to rely on.

I think the maximum was two and a half times salary and 90% when I got the place. You are getting into what set off the 2007 banking collapse when you get into the realms of 100% + mortgages at 5 - 7 times salary. Brown should be in jail as he let it float across the Atlantic, and after he had sold the gold reserves at a record low he found he had to bail out the banks.

[Laughing Gravy]

6 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

I think the maximum was two and a half times salary and 90% when I got the place. You are getting into what set off the 2007 banking collapse when you get into the realms of 100% + mortgages at 5 - 7 times salary. Brown should be in jail as he let it float across the Atlantic, and after he had sold the gold reserves at a record low he found he had to bail out the banks.

Maybe my facts are slightly out but the point I was making, is the amount you can borrow against your salary is extremely dangerous and at some point will cause problems for many. Brown and Blair should be cuffed together, in my opinion.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

1 minute ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Maybe my facts are slightly out but the point I was making, is the amount you can borrow against your salary is extremely dangerous and at some point will cause problems for many. Brown and Blair should be cuffed together, in my opinion.

I totally agree.

[JAG]

21 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

But we're not playing 3-card brag. Not even bridge. It's at least as complex as the Manhatten Project! Why do you think the two sides are enemies? Did you suffer bullying?

Put bluntly, if Theresa May was to reveal her governments negotiating strategy, and what they may be prepared to concede to Nichola Sturgeon, jt would be on the desk of those with whom we would be negotiating within the hour, and shouted from the rooftops of Holywood by teatime  (just in time for the 6 o'clock news bulletins. 

 

The concept of keeping such matters secret, in order to safeguard the UK SO negotiating position is almost certainly one which carries no weight with her.

 

I think that is what the allusion to cards is about.

[rockingrobin]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

Put bluntly, if Theresa May was to reveal her governments negotiating strategy, and what they may be prepared to concede to Nichola Sturgeon, jt would be on the desk of those with whom we would be negotiating within the hour, and shouted from the rooftops of Holywood by teatime  (just in time for the 6 o'clock news bulletins. 

 

The concept of keeping such matters secret, in order to safeguard the UK SO negotiating position is almost certainly one which carries no weight with her.

 

I think that is what the allusion to cards is about.

Is Scotland ,Wales and NI part of the UK. Why should England be the one shaping the UKs future.

 

[JAG]

27 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

Is Scotland ,Wales and NI part of the UK. Why should England be the one shaping the UKs future.

 

It isn't. It is the UK Government. Drawn from the UK parliament,  in which Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are represented, just as much as is England - In the case of Scotland I believe disproportionately so. The devolved administrations have power over and responsibilities for certain specific functions. Foreign affairs remain the responsibility of Westminster,  where I repeat, they are fully represented.

Edited October 26, 2016 by JAG

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

Put bluntly, if Theresa May was to reveal her governments negotiating strategy, and what they may be prepared to concede to Nichola Sturgeon, jt would be on the desk of those with whom we would be negotiating within the hour, and shouted from the rooftops of Holywood by teatime  (just in time for the 6 o'clock news bulletins. 

 

The concept of keeping such matters secret, in order to safeguard the UK SO negotiating position is almost certainly one which carries no weight with her.

 

I think that is what the allusion to cards is about.

 

I just don't see it as that kind of negotiation. It's more of an intractable problem that requires all hands to the pumps to find an acceptable solution. I particularly worry that the Tory government will push for a partisan solution to suit Tory party members at the expense of the UK as a whole. 

[rockingrobin]

39 minutes ago, JAG said:

It isn't. It is the UK Government. Drawn from the UK parliament,  in which Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are represented, just as much as is England - In the case of Scotland I believe disproportionately so. The devolved administrations have power over and responsibilities for certain specific functions. Foreign affairs remain the responsibility of Westminster,  where I repeat, they are fully represented.

The UK government is formed by the political party with the majority representation.The PM selects MPs to form the cabinet.

As parliament is not involved at present with brexit negotiations, it would appear the English is shaping the UKs future

[JAG]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

 

I just don't see it as that kind of negotiation. It's more of an intractable problem that requires all hands to the pumps to find an acceptable solution. I particularly worry that the Tory government will push for a partisan solution to suit Tory party members at the expense of the UK as a whole. 

It'should not be intractable - the decision to leave the EU has been made. It was made by a majority of the UK electors (admittedly a small majority) when the referendum was held.

 

As to what comes after in the UK's  relationship with the EU, well any negotiation involves two sides. Many of the noises coming from across the channel are really quite partisan. On this side the SNP in particular is most unlikely to work co-operatively, after all Ms Sturgeon has stated that she will do all she can to block Brexit. There is little point in having all hands to the pumps if some of them are busy opening the seacocks! 

 

As for the Tory government only trying to serve the Tories,  I think that is rather undeserved frankly. And if that is the case, given the split which would ensue in their ranks, and their small majority, a few rebels would serve to scupper any agreement when Parliament eventually votes to ratify it.

 

[JAG]

1 hour ago, rockingrobin said:

The UK government is formed by the political party with the majority representation.The PM selects MPs to form the cabinet.

As parliament is not involved at present with brexit negotiations, it would appear the English is shaping the UKs future

I'm not quite sure how you see Parliament should play a part in the negotiations? 

Given that there are 600 odd MP'S,  (some very odd) who probably between them field several dozens of widely differing approaches.

 

Parliaments role will be to debate, and approve or otherwise the results of the negotiations. 

 

Now within the UK the population of England is significantly greater than the combined populations of Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland.  Therefore it is inevitable that England will probably have the greatest influence in shaping the post Brexit UK. That of course would be just as true if Parliament was doing the negotiating.

 

I suppose that the only way round it would be to dissolve the Union and allow each country to " do it's own thing". I'm not particularly averse,  but of course then the complaint would be that England was taking the lions share of everything! 

[cumgranosalum]

Brexit means Brexit ..unless you are Theresa May, in which case, according to this link, it means seriously damaging the country....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/25/exclusive-leaked-recording-shows-what-theresa-may-really-thinks-about-brexit?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=196486&subid=11137&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

 

isn't that tantamount to Treason?

 

[rockingrobin]

12 minutes ago, JAG said:

I'm not quite sure how you see Parliament should play a part in the negotiations? 

Given that there are 600 odd MP'S,  (some very odd) who probably between them field several dozens of widely differing approaches.

 

Parliaments role will be to debate, and approve or otherwise the results of the negotiations. 

 

Now within the UK the population of England is significantly greater than the combined populations of Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland.  Therefore it is inevitable that England will probably have the greatest influence in shaping the post Brexit UK. That of course would be just as true if Parliament was doing the negotiating.

 

I suppose that the only way round it would be to dissolve the Union and allow each country to " do it's own thing". I'm not particularly averse,  but of course then the complaint would be that England was taking the lions share of everything! 

For parliament to have a proper choice there needs to exist a substantive alternative.

What is being proposed is that parliament will be offered accept the deal or allow the UK to fall of the cliff with no agreement. 

However if the UK does not conclude an agreement with no undertaking to extend deadline , then parliament has no say

[Grouse]

38 minutes ago, JAG said:

It'should not be intractable - the decision to leave the EU has been made. It was made by a majority of the UK electors (admittedly a small majority) when the referendum was held.

 

As to what comes after in the UK's  relationship with the EU, well any negotiation involves two sides. Many of the noises coming from across the channel are really quite partisan. On this side the SNP in particular is most unlikely to work co-operatively, after all Ms Sturgeon has stated that she will do all she can to block Brexit. There is little point in having all hands to the pumps if some of them are busy opening the seacocks! 

 

As for the Tory government only trying to serve the Tories,  I think that is rather undeserved frankly. And if that is the case, given the split which would ensue in their ranks, and their small majority, a few rebels would serve to scupper any agreement when Parliament eventually votes to ratify it.

 

 

The fact that parliament will vote to approve any agreement gives parliament a high degree of leverage. Essentially the majority view must prevail. It therefore makes sense to understand what will and what will not be accepted by parliament. 

 

I spy a solution where the UK remains part of the single market. I suspect the free movement issue will be modified across the EU. With enhanced devolution, an overall solution just might be possible ?

[Grouse]

There's more....

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bank-of-england-mark-carney-theresa-may-attack-monetary-policy-tory-conference-speech-a7380016.html