Child Visa Refused

[Drew183]

We just received a visa refusal for my wife's daughter to stay in the U.K.  The embassy refused it on the lack of evidence that we were not involved on the day to day care of the child. 

The child lives with her grandmother. We provided money transfer receipts, a sole custody letter from the court, photos, etc.

They did send us an email before the decision was made asking for more evidence of supplying food, clothing, doctors bills. But out in the sticks of issan it was not possible to provide receipts for these things.

 

I don't want to re-apply as the outcome will be the same.

 

But I do want to appeal against it. Has anyone ever appealed against there visa refusal before? How do I go about it?

 

 

[theoldgit]

As I understand, visas applications of this sort, children applying to join their mother after living apart for a period of time, are the most common type of refusals in Bangkok, and maybe elsewhere. 

 

You say the UKVI asked for supplementary evidence before they made their decision rather than giving a straight refusal, but you were unable to provide that evidence as the child lives in "the sticks of Issan" maybe the decision maker didn't think that reason was credible, so went ahead with a refusal as their concerns hadn't been addressed.

 

Your thinking is correct that an appeal or a further application is unlikely to succeed if you are still unable to address the reasons for the refusal.

 

This type of refusal is the most difficult to overturn, and whilst the appeal process should be detailed with the refusal, you may want to consider obtaining professional advice. Paul or Tony at Thaivisexpress are probably your best bet, they are certainly the only ones I would recommend. 

[whatproblem]

I appealed on behalf of my wife and 3 days before the hearing that was in Leicester I was phoned to say they had reconsidered and the visa was granted ,this was only a tourist visa and outside the vfc the guy knew my wife had been refused before we received the papers and said he could get it for 12,000 baht,maybe he was just trying his luck .

[ronaldo0]

I appealed my wife's tourist visa application as she was refused on 3 points , all of which were not true as they were all to do with finances which she and I had given proof off having more than enough required. My appeal was done in VIETNAM !! The response from them was they agreed with the initial decision and told me to try again. Would try appealing with all paperwork required or apply again, maybe using a visa service. I know several people who had nothing in bank , no job , no car etc and got UK visa no problem for 6 months holiday. Just seems your luck sometimes.

[7by7]

2 hours ago, whatproblem said:

I appealed on behalf of my wife and 3 days before the hearing that was in Leicester I was phoned to say they had reconsidered and the visa was granted ,this was only a tourist visa and outside the vfc the guy knew my wife had been refused before we received the papers and said he could get it for 12,000 baht,maybe he was just trying his luck .

 

UK visit visa refusals no longer have the right of appeal; haven't for some time.

 

The guy outside VFS was definitely trying his luck. Visa application results are treated as strictly confidential; they actually come under the Data Protection Act. Passports and the decision are returned to VFS in sealed envelopes. No one outside the entry clearance office at the embassy knows the result until that envelope is opened by the applicant or their appointed representative.

[7by7]

I agree with theoldgit that a child settlement visa where parent and child have been separated can be very difficult to obtain; the stumbling block being showing sole responsibility. easy to show if parent and child apply at the same time, but the longer the separation the more difficult it becomes.

 

I also agree that professional advice is required, and that having been given the opportunity to supply additional documents not doing so doesn't help your case!

 

Like him, the only agents in Thailand I have any confidence in are TVE.

 

However, as you are in the UK you may find it more convenient to use an advisor closer to home.

 

By law, anyone giving immigration advise in the UK must be registered with the OISC or a member of an approved professional body such as the Law Society; even charities and others who don't charge a fee.

 

See Find an immigration adviser.

 

If you would like further comments or advice from members here then we need to see the actual refusal notice; otherwise any comments would be pure speculation.

 

If you do decide to post it, remember that this is an open forum which anyone can read. So delete all names, phone numbers, addresses and any other identifying information first.

[RichardColeman]

If she had sole parental responsibility cant you just adopt the child, and bring her here as an adopted child ? (Yes, I know you need adopted here and in UK). I'd be interested if anyone knows of any data showing percentage of adopted children getting visas (or such) to UK.

[bobrussell]

Adoption is a very long process!

I would agree with the comments above regarding the difficulties with these applications and the need to get proper immigration advice. This is not as easy in the UK as you may think as many solicitors are not experienced in immigration law. Some seem to make quite a hash of it!

An advisor does not have to be that close to home as much, if not all can be done by phone, email and post!

One possible line of approach would be the best interests of the child. It is not clear how old the child is nor how long mother and child have been apart. This must be a key consideration.

Are there good reasons why things have changed? Why now? Is the grandmother able to continue to care for the child?

Changes in circumstances such as a grandparent becoming unable or unwilling to continue care?

Absolutely critical to counter the reasons for refusal so document all contact, all decision making, all purchases for the child made on your behalf (even if no receipts are available). Details of decisions with regard to schooling. Any school fees, get receipts in your name.

You need to show day to day decision making is done by you/wife.

But get professional guidance at all costs. TVE seem to have a good reputation and apparently do have an office in the UK as well as Thailand. As good a place to start as any!

[Drew183]

I have just been sent the refusal letter. The reasons that it was refused were that the custody case was completed before the application and seen only to facilitate the application. Even though my wife has sole responsibility they don't see her as so. 

 

It also states there is no right to appeal. 

 

The only option left is to try for adoption.

 

Seems crazy both me and my wife are British citizens and they deny the right for her to join us. After providing all the evidence we can and ticking all the boxes its refused because it looks a though were are only doing so for the application.  

[whatproblem]

4 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

UK visit visa refusals no longer have the right of appeal; haven't for some time.

 

The guy outside VFS was definitely trying his luck. Visa application results are treated as strictly confidential; they actually come under the Data Protection Act. Passports and the decision are returned to VFS in sealed envelopes. No one outside the entry clearance office at the embassy knows the result until that envelope is opened by the applicant or their appointed representative.

You may be right but the original visa was denied and the guy was right in that case ,i thought that their decision was so bad and their excuse was that they thought it was not true marriage even though I had been married and living with wife in Thailand for 7 years ,with a child of 4 years ,I was registered at our address with embassy ,my child was registered etc, but this guy knew the visa was denied. It makes you think ,especially in the land of scams

Edited October 26, 2016 by whatproblem

[yardrunner]

8 hours ago, Drew183 said:

I have just been sent the refusal letter. The reasons that it was refused were that the custody case was completed before the application and seen only to facilitate the application. Even though my wife has sole responsibility they don't see her as so. 

 

It also states there is no right to appeal. 

 

The only option left is to try for adoption.

 

Seems crazy both me and my wife are British citizens and they deny the right for her to join us. After providing all the evidence we can and ticking all the boxes its refused because it looks a though were are only doing so for the application.  

2012 my wife (Thai) visited UK  to meet my family on a tourist visa and as she had never flown before she wanted her daughter (30) to come with her, applied for a tourist visa for both with all the  paperwork and explaining the reason, visa for my wife refusal for my daughter. as i was still in the UK at the time i saw my MP and six weeks later my daughter got a message to go to the embassy in Bangkok to collect her visa

[Jip99]

15 hours ago, Drew183 said:

I have just been sent the refusal letter. The reasons that it was refused were that the custody case was completed before the application and seen only to facilitate the application. Even though my wife has sole responsibility they don't see her as so. 

 

It also states there is no right to appeal. 

 

The only option left is to try for adoption.

 

Seems crazy both me and my wife are British citizens and they deny the right for her to join us. After providing all the evidence we can and ticking all the boxes its refused because it looks a though were are only doing so for the application.  

 

 

With respect, your response sounds defeatist.

 

As disappointed as you must be, take it on the chin, deep breath and go see the experts as suggested by The Old Git.

 

I suspect there will a bit adjusting and a new application made. Should that fail (which I doubt) then follow yardrunners strategy of contacting your local MP.

[bobrussell]

Not sure I understand the reasons for the rejection. It may be helpful to post the refusal letter (having removed any identifying information such as names etc). However this really is one for an immigration specialist.

Adoption is likely to take a considerable time and is potentially very involved.

It may well be that a fresh application will be successful but as has been recommended get some professional help with it!

Nothing wrong with contacting your MP anyway as I believe it does concentrate UKVI's minds a bit. Do both!

[Drew183]

Thanks for your responses. I have contacted TVE. And made inquiries about adoption. Unfortunately I live in Jersey and we don't have MP's. Not only do we apply through the British embassy but we have Jersey immigration who make the final decision and they have their own set of rules. Its probably twice as hard to obtain a visa compared to the UK.  

[bobrussell]

Absolutely no expertise on Jersey immigration but from what I can glean, you might have more right to review and appeal than under general UK law!

 

http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government and administration/ID Review of Immigration Decision 20140821 TL.pdf

 

Sounds like you have been talking to the right people, with far more expertise in the matter!

 

Good luck!

[Tony M]

I have seen the refusal notice.   In my opinion, you will, have great difficulty, if not impossibility, in proving sole responsibility.   Until recently the child's natural father had legal custody and sole responsibility. They child lived with father and/or paternal relatives. Your wife has now obtained legal custody (very recently), but is unable to prove sole responsibility as the child lived with father.  Custody and responsibility are two very different animals. I believe that you will find it almost impossible to show that your wife has had responsibility for her child since she split up with her husband, and that is where the application, and any new application fails. Guidance to ECOs does say :

"A parent claiming to have sole responsibility must provide evidence that they have exercised this role since the other parent abdicated or abandoned their parental role. This may be over a period of several years or may be several months before an application."

 

but also says :

"Sole responsibility can be recent or long standing. Any recent change of arrangements should be scrutinised to make sure this is genuine rather than seeking to get around immigration control."

The ECO must also consider :
 

"You must consider the following:

Have decisions and actions in relation to the upbringing of the child been done under the

direction of the applicant and not the other parent or any other person?"

Proving sole responsibility is not easy.  Jersey uses virtually the same criteria as the mainland in considering these applications. They may well have taken advice from UKVI in reaching their decision. The following is guidance from a UK (OISC) advisor :

"To meet the sole responsibility requirement, it is necessary to satisfy the Home Office that the sponsoring parent has, usually for a substantial period of time, been the chief person exercising parental responsibility for the child. This means that the sponsoring parent has had and still has the ultimate responsibility for the major decisions relating to the child’s upbringing and provides the child with the majority of the financial and emotional support it requires. The sponsoring parent must show that he or she has had, and continues to have, care and control of the child."

[7by7]

Now that we have more information, I can see why this application was refused.

 

Your wife is now a British citizen, so she must have lived in Jersey with you for at least three years.

 

The child's father had sole custody and the child has lived with him or his relatives, presumably ever since the divorce or separation so for a considerable period, until very recently and the father has been exercising sole responsibility during that period.

 

In my opinion, for an appeal, or second application, to stand any chance of success your wife needs to satisfactorily explain

• why the father was granted sole custody rather than her or joint custody;
• why that was recently changed to give her sole custody;
• why the child has until recently been living with the father or his family rather than with her family;
• why that recently changed and the child now lives with her mother's mother (I'm assuming that when you say in the OP "The child lives with her grandmother" that you mean her maternal grandmother).
• why she has not been exercising at least joint responsibility with the father over the child;
• why the child did not come with her when she moved to Jersey;
• what has changed since to make it necessary for the child to come now.

She must also provide as much evidence as possible to back all this up. For example, when my wife and step daughter applied we provided the court papers to show why the original joint custody of her daughter had been changed to give my wife sole custody. 

 

Remember, though, that sole custody is not enough; sole responsibility is equally, maybe more, important and that needs to have been exercised for some time prior to the application and proven.

 

BTW, perhaps not relevant here as you live in Jersey; but some members put too much faith in MPs! A MP may be able to get UKVI to review a case and hurry the procedure along; but if a refusal is within the rules then there is nothing a MP can do to change it.

 

Edited October 28, 2016 by 7by7
Addendum

[Drew183]

I have applied for a review into the refusal and wait to hear what they say. 

 

It took us a long time for the child's father to agree to let her leave his care and we have only recently got the court order. Now the child is a bit older he has allowed her to live with her grandmother as he can't provide as much care as she can. She has been living with her for 2 years.  One of the points it was refused was that it took a long time to apply. I did not explain the difficulties in this. They thought the court order was to facilitate the application. We thought that we would be interviewed as part of the application but we never got chance to discuss with immigration. 

 

Although we don't have MP's we do have whats called the Lieutenant-Governor who can have the deciding vote in immigration acceptance. I may explain to him our situation.   

[bobrussell]

A review makes sense especially if there have been changes in circumstances that have not been considered. There is a requirement to consider the best interests of the child.

Sometimes a better explanation of why it is in the interests of the child to settle within the UK (or here Jersey) helps and must be considered. 

Unfortunately just because one parent cannot offer equal care there is no immediate right to live with the other parent under immigration law.

You should be prepared to provide a pretty comprehensive set of reasons why the child should not live with the grandparent, father and/or his family.

Likely to be tricky and it is always a good idea to get an expert to deal with this type of application from the start to reduce wriggle room. It may be difficult to 'undo' what has been done. Hindsight is a wonderful thing!

Edited October 28, 2016 by bobrussell
Poor grammar