Time to face harsh market realities of rice growing

[robblok]

On 3-11-2016 at 9:53 AM, Brer Fox said:

So it logically follows from what you say that ALL farmers should be growing "organic" rice and making a fortune which sounds good in theory. The problem is that It is common knowledge that "organic" certification can be bought (like any other certificate) for a price so the description "organic" as applied to any food product in Thailand is half dirty already.

 

Of course that wont work if they ALL do the same thing, but there are other options too. But reality is this is a losing model and the taxpayer has to pay all the time for something that wont work. That is just wrong.

 

Someone loses his job and gets no support from the government, but the rice price is low and the farmers always get bailed out without any incentive to change because they always get bailed out. 

 

Things like cooperatives could help, changing what kind of rice.. going organic.. but people hate change and only if its forced upon will change.. by helping them all the time they wont change. 

[Brer Fox]

27 minutes ago, robblok said:

 

Of course that wont work if they ALL do the same thing, but there are other options too. But reality is this is a losing model and the taxpayer has to pay all the time for something that wont work. That is just wrong.

 

Someone loses his job and gets no support from the government, but the rice price is low and the farmers always get bailed out without any incentive to change because they always get bailed out. 

 

Things like cooperatives could help, changing what kind of rice.. going organic.. but people hate change and only if its forced upon will change.. by helping them all the time they wont change. 

 

Edited November 5, 2016 by Brer Fox

[robblok]

7 minutes ago, Brer Fox said:

Co-ops could help for sure but it is the Farmers Federation of Thailand that should be having more input rather than military people and academics. But I guess they are in fear of speaking out in case of upsetting the General.

How would they upset the general.. the guy is giving a subsidy too. Almost as wrong as YL, but at least this one is all proper and included in the central budget. That makes it legal unlike what YL did off-books. 

 

But both caved in for the farmers and again nothing changes just pouring money in without any change. This will never change this way. Vietnam has a double yield per rai and lower costs. If you can't compete then just shield your internal market and only produce rice for the internal market. Now they are still exporting in a market that is oversupplied already. Paying farmers to make it even worse trying to compete with those who have lower costs. 

 

It just does not work that way, just read 127 billion.. crazy as I said before others in Thailand get no help at all but farmers always get it. Normal people change their education.. do other jobs because they have too farmers.. nope.. can do what they want and when it goes wrong tell the government to pay them. Just totally unfair in my book. 

 

I am not against helping the farmers.. but only if they change.. now it just wont work.

 

Farmers are only responsible for 8.4 % of the GDP but get the most money....

Edited November 5, 2016 by robblok

[GiantFan]

High prices 2012 - 2014 caused by poor harvests in India and Vietnam.  Down ever since.  Bumper crops, high stockpiles, and stable consumption worldwide means price rebound unlikely.

[robblok]

1 minute ago, GiantFan said:

High prices 2012 - 2014 caused by poor harvests in India and Vietnam.  Down ever since.  Bumper crops, high stockpiles, and stable consumption worldwide means price rebound unlikely.

 

Yep.. that sums it up-quite nicely.. not to mention all the rice in storage because of YL.. that also does not help. 

[Brer Fox]

On 11/3/2016 at 5:29 PM, losworld said:

Create a co-operative.  Get rid of middlemen "rice barons".  This is a first step.

You are right and the Farmers Federation of Thailand should be organising this for the rice farmers. But they are standing still like zombies wracked with fear of what the government and General Eyebrows might say. Also they would be nervous about upsetting the greedy merchants some of whom would most likely have entrenched themselves among the Farmers Federation itself so as to protect their own interests.

[robblok]

17 minutes ago, Brer Fox said:

You are right and the Farmers Federation of Thailand should be organising this for the rice farmers. But they are standing still like zombies wracked with fear of what the government and General Eyebrows might say. Also they would be nervous about upsetting the greedy merchants some of whom would most likely have entrenched themselves among the Farmers Federation itself so as to protect their own interests.

Nice to say that.. but where is your proof ?

 

I mean how many years did they have without a junta to setup. ? This is hardly the first year farmers are having problems. 

[GinBoy2]

On 11/3/2016 at 1:13 AM, bkkgriz said:

 

This is spot on. My family's 2500 acre farm was not economically viable anymore so we got out of the business. Operating costs are just way too high for small farmers to survive anymore. It's a problem for farmers all over the world. Family farms are a thing of the past. If you don't own 15 to 20,000 acres in the US, it's not economically viable. 10 and 20 rai farms in Thailand are in the same boat.

Absolutely the problem. For farming everywhere in the world, size really does matter!

 

If you cast your mind back about a year, the junta were pitching the 'hub of sustainable farming' nonsense.

 

I lifted this slide out of the presentation, since coming from a farming family (son of a farm worker I should add) in the California Central valley, I was totally amazed by the actual figures of average farm sizes.

 

So who, in their corn fed minds, believe that you can actually grow anything profitably on such some size farms??

 

Talk endlessly about different crops, organic, it's all pie in the sky unless the farms are of a sustainable size.

 

But then again, reality doesn't really need to impinge too much on 'Thainess'....me silly farang, no understand!

 

[Brer Fox]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Nice to say that.. but where is your proof ?

 

I mean how many years did they have without a junta to setup. ? This is hardly the first year farmers are having problems. 

Proof of what is it that you ask? My comments were statements of opinion much like your initial opinion piece was. That is what these forums are about. You should know you have been around long enough.

Both our opinions may well be correct. But I should provide proof and you are free of that requirement? Good to know the self awarded entitlements old hands like you apply to yourselves. I will watch my step in future.

[Grubster]

On November 3, 2016 at 5:29 AM, Alive said:

Thailand needs some sort of online market place where farmers growing crops can put their present or future harvest up for review and sale. It should be something as easy as a social media post which many Thais can do. For example a farmer selling rice could put his rice for sale to anyone online or another farmer who is growing something else like chickpeas can also post. It could be broken down in various crop types and regions. It would also let some farmers trying new crops connect with people who might be looking for something strange. You could also offer seeds and saplings etc. One place online. Yes, it would cut out the middle man a bit. Just an idea. Maybe they already have something like this.

Yes you are talking good sense.  In the US most farmers sell at least 50% of their crop before they plant it so they know what they are to be paid. If the middle man doesn't offer a fair profitable price then the farmer will not use the expensive fertilizers, weed and bug killers, as he knows the middle man is not going to pay for it. As it is here the middle man, fertilizer, chemical companies only gets profit and takes none of the gamble. If the Farmer knows going in that he cannot make money on a crop he may very well plant paper wood or something and try to live off, small plots of vegetables, a few cattle, hogs etc. Hard wood would be a wonderful option, but a long term investment in a country that will currently not allow you to harvest it off your own land. The world is coming into a hardwood shortage and cutting more rain forrest is not the answer to that. The current and past Thai governments are trapped in the " Whats in it for me/us now " Box. They are incapable of seeing 20 years later benefits. 

[JAG]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

snip....

Farmers are only responsible for 8.4 % of the GDP but get the most money....

 

Yes but that 8.4% of the GDP is the staple diet of the entire population.

 

If they didn't produce the food (principally rice), food prices would be very very much higher.

[robblok]

19 hours ago, JAG said:

 

Yes but that 8.4% of the GDP is the staple diet of the entire population.

 

If they didn't produce the food (principally rice), food prices would be very very much higher.

Obviously not.. with a surplus on the market JAG.. I always expected farming to be a lot higher GDP wise.. but its actually close to tourism. 

Fact is they are not that important GDP wise but get loads of money compared to those who are.

It would be good if less was produced at least the prices would go up a bit for the farmers.

[robblok]

20 hours ago, Brer Fox said:

Proof of what is it that you ask? My comments were statements of opinion much like your initial opinion piece was. That is what these forums are about. You should know you have been around long enough.

Both our opinions may well be correct. But I should provide proof and you are free of that requirement? Good to know the self awarded entitlements old hands like you apply to yourselves. I will watch my step in future.

Because logic plas a large part.. your saying the farmers never set anything up to better themselves because they are scared of the Junta.. now logic dictates that the junta has not been in power long but farmers have been having problems for at least a decade (look at all the rice subsidies over the years). So its totally illogical to blame the Junta for something that they could have set up years before.

 

Fact remains by giving the farmers money all the time you prevent them from making change. People hate change (just look at all the management books about change). They will only change if they absolutely have to. Now again the junta is doing the same thing.. throwing money at a group of people only responsible for 8.4% of the GDP without making them change.  Under YL a portion as large as the anual health budget was spend yearly on helping them out. So a group that is not really economically viable gets loads of support while others don't. It makes no economic sense at all. The only sense it makes is that its a large group that needs to be kept happy otherwise they don't vote right. Just imagine if people on welfare ever got such a large say in your own country and kept on demanding more and more.. the working would not like that one bit but would be powerless and paying for it. I just don't see things like that as fair.

 

That is what it all boils down to because they have so much power they will never have to change and the rest of Thailand is held back by them. I am all for helping the farmers.. but not with an endless amount of money without making them change so the situation changes. Think cooperatives / direct sales, different strains of rice and so on. Going low pesticide / fertilizer. (of course they should not all do the same thing like is often the case here)

 

Vietnam, (a country you like a lot) has double the rice per rai and lower costs, that should be reason enough to overhaul the rice production if you can't even compete with your neighbors. (have posted the link to back this up a number of times)

 

To put it in perspective the 2016 healthcare budget was 277 and the farmers are now getting (again) 127 (under YL they got double from the rice program). Does not sound fair at all to me that such a large sum ONLY benefits the farmers who are responsible for just 8.7% of gdp while anyone else losing a job or having a bad business is out on their own. 

Edited November 6, 2016 by robblok

[Ron19]

Is it really the market or collusion between millers and certain politicians that have driven down the price of rice as some have charged

Receiving depots and Miller's.

Sent from my iris 755 using Tapatalk

[robblok]

9 minutes ago, Ron19 said:

Receiving depots and Miller's.

Sent from my iris 755 using Tapatalk
 

Do explain more.. and if it is collusion between politicians and millers.. that just shows how desperate certain politicians are that they would hurt the ones they supposedly want to help so they come back crying and give their support to the same who secretly destroyed them. Would be real smart and real devious if true. 

[GinBoy2]

Without wanting to sound like a broken record, but....

 

Regardless of millers, middle men, you cannot make a a profitable business farming 4 hectares of land, regardless of what you grow.

 

Problem is, to break the cycle of small farms you need to educate the young so that they have opportunities to move off the family farm, then consolidation of land happens. Without that, farm size actually decreases every generation as it's split between children.

 

But all that takes vision, something sorely lacking in the people that actually run this country, since it appears they rather like a docile uneducated poor majority

[Brer Fox]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Because logic plas a large part.. your saying the farmers never set anything up to better themselves because they are scared of the Junta.. now logic dictates that the junta has not been in power long but farmers have been having problems for at least a decade (look at all the rice subsidies over the years). So its totally illogical to blame the Junta for something that they could have set up years before.

 

Fact remains by giving the farmers money all the time you prevent them from making change. People hate change (just look at all the management books about change). They will only change if they absolutely have to. Now again the junta is doing the same thing.. throwing money at a group of people only responsible for 8.4% of the GDP without making them change.  Under YL a portion as large as the anual health budget was spend yearly on helping them out. So a group that is not really economically viable gets loads of support while others don't. It makes no economic sense at all. The only sense it makes is that its a large group that needs to be kept happy otherwise they don't vote right. Just imagine if people on welfare ever got such a large say in your own country and kept on demanding more and more.. the working would not like that one bit but would be powerless and paying for it. I just don't see things like that as fair.

 

That is what it all boils down to because they have so much power they will never have to change and the rest of Thailand is held back by them. I am all for helping the farmers.. but not with an endless amount of money without making them change so the situation changes. Think cooperatives / direct sales, different strains of rice and so on. Going low pesticide / fertilizer. (of course they should not all do the same thing like is often the case here)

 

Vietnam, (a country you like a lot) has double the rice per rai and lower costs, that should be reason enough to overhaul the rice production if you can't even compete with your neighbors. (have posted the link to back this up a number of times)

 

To put it in perspective the 2016 healthcare budget was 277 and the farmers are now getting (again) 127 (under YL they got double from the rice program). Does not sound fair at all to me that such a large sum ONLY benefits the farmers who are responsible for just 8.7% of gdp while anyone else losing a job or having a bad business is out on their own. 

I agree with everything you have said except the first paragraph where you misquote me to the highest order. I have never said anything of the kind about....to quote you, "the farmers never set anything up to better themselves because they are scared of the Junta". I think you are confusing me with someone else's contribution. What I was suggesting was that the Farmers Federation of Thailand was afraid to dig in and help on behalf of the farmers because of the "government and General Eyebrows" and greedy merchants. I am not blaming this junta for what has gone on this time around. Just saying that this know-all junta or any previous juntas are likely to have an intimidatory effect on the people representing organisations such as the Farmers Federation who could do something to help farmers set up co-ops and the like but don't.

Just for the record I disagree with giving the farmers subsidy handouts to assist them to remain uneconomic rice producers. Thailand and farmers themselves are now reaping what they have sown over the past two decades that being lethargy in developing improved and more productive methods of cropping. How they survive into the future I have no idea. I thin k the horse has bolted.

[robblok]

20 minutes ago, Brer Fox said:

I agree with everything you have said except the first paragraph where you misquote me to the highest order. I have never said anything of the kind about....to quote you, "the farmers never set anything up to better themselves because they are scared of the Junta". I think you are confusing me with someone else's contribution. What I was suggesting was that the Farmers Federation of Thailand was afraid to dig in and help on behalf of the farmers because of the "government and General Eyebrows" and greedy merchants. I am not blaming this junta for what has gone on this time around. Just saying that this know-all junta or any previous juntas are likely to have an intimidatory effect on the people representing organisations such as the Farmers Federation who could do something to help farmers set up co-ops and the like but don't.

Just for the record I disagree with giving the farmers subsidy handouts to assist them to remain uneconomic rice producers. Thailand and farmers themselves are now reaping what they have sown over the past two decades that being lethargy in developing improved and more productive methods of cropping. How they survive into the future I have no idea. I thin k the horse has bolted.

Ok, I thought you were saying that farmers federation never set up anything because of the junta.. that is why I said before there was no junta and they did nothing. I don't agree with what your saying about the junta, because its in the junta's best interest for the farmers to be happy. Its already an enormous loss of face that they are now helping the farmers while before they said they would not.  So IMHO i think they would have welcomed ANY help (except that of YL of course). 

 

Lets agree to disagree. 

 

For the record, not against helping the farmers at all.. but only if they change and helping them change, just paying them off changes nothing (unless some rice harvest somewhere fails and the prices go up. 

[Brer Fox]

9 minutes ago, robblok said:

Ok, I thought you were saying that farmers federation never set up anything because of the junta.. that is why I said before there was no junta and they did nothing. I don't agree with what your saying about the junta, because its in the junta's best interest for the farmers to be happy. Its already an enormous loss of face that they are now helping the farmers while before they said they would not.  So IMHO i think they would have welcomed ANY help (except that of YL of course). 

 

Lets agree to disagree. 

 

For the record, not against helping the farmers at all.. but only if they change and helping them change, just paying them off changes nothing (unless some rice harvest somewhere fails and the prices go up. 

Lets agree to disagree.  Fine by me.  

Let's hope your beloved junta can do something sensible to help.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, Brer Fox said:

Lets agree to disagree.  Fine by me.  

Let's hope your beloved junta can do something sensible to help.

 

Not beloved, just less disliked by me then the Shins. Kinda like choosing if you rather be killed by a great white or hit by a car. Just think they are the lesser evil (but still evil / corrupt ect) 

[billd766]

On 05/11/2016 at 8:57 AM, spidermike007 said:

 

Or do something entreprenueral. Sell prepared food. Or grow exotic fruits or hydroponic herbs, or start a small business. Anything but that which ensures you remain impoverished the rest of your life. 

 

 

 

In between doing something new which will require a fair sized cash input and paying off your debts, how will farmers and their families be able to afford to even eat, let alone send their children to school.

 

Growing exotic fruits requires a market to sell to and the land may be no good for that.

 

Hydroponic herbs require water all year around plus the market to sell to as well and to make a business of it costs a lot in start up fees.

 

I am not knocking your thoughts and ideas but trying to show the practicalities of changing from one type of farming to another.

[robblok]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

 

In between doing something new which will require a fair sized cash input and paying off your debts, how will farmers and their families be able to afford to even eat, let alone send their children to school.

 

Growing exotic fruits requires a market to sell to and the land may be no good for that.

 

Hydroponic herbs require water all year around plus the market to sell to as well and to make a business of it costs a lot in start up fees.

 

I am not knocking your thoughts and ideas but trying to show the practicalities of changing from one type of farming to another.

 

Money should be given for that, but would be hard to check things. Helping the farmers changing structural would be the only way to ever change this. There is overproduction and unless some harvests are destroyed there won't be any better prices. Even if this happens its only temporarily so something really has to change.

 

But your 100% right it costs money and is not easy. 

[GinBoy2]

You guys just don't get it do you. Argue among yourselves about what to grow, how to market, grow up and face the real problems.

 

But then again maybe you have just fully gone native and bought into the Thai superficial way of looking at any problem.

[billd766]

32 minutes ago, robblok said:

 

Money should be given for that, but would be hard to check things. Helping the farmers changing structural would be the only way to ever change this. There is overproduction and unless some harvests are destroyed there won't be any better prices. Even if this happens its only temporarily so something really has to change.

 

But your 100% right it costs money and is not easy. 

 

It might pay the government to select a different region every year and pay rice farmers NOT to grow rice for that year. I think that if they could do it then overproduction of rice would be far less, the land would recover a bit ans as the farmers would not need to use fertilizer that year they could be able to pay off more of their accumulated debt.

 

There would need to be serious checks to ensure that the farmers did not claim the subsidy and grow rice too but that would be in the details.

[Wilsonandson]

 
Money should be given for that, but would be hard to check things. Helping the farmers changing structural would be the only way to ever change this. There is overproduction and unless some harvests are destroyed there won't be any better prices. Even if this happens its only temporarily so something really has to change.
 
But your 100% right it costs money and is not easy. 

I grew a hydroponic herb in my wardrobe back home during my days as a student and your right, it's not easy, but it was worth it in the end.

[The man from udon]

So they are going to lend farmers 13,000 baht plus interest on a ton of rice that's worth 5-6000 baht.that works out the price of rice must nearly triple before the next crop comes in to pay the loans back.this is going to be another messy saga in the next year.im just popping down the gold shop to see if they will lend me double what my golds worth.

[billd766]

42 minutes ago, Wilsonandson said:

I grew a hydroponic herb in my wardrobe back home during my days as a student and your right, it's not easy, but it was worth it in the end.

 

But could you make a living for 4 people from it?

[robblok]

4 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

But could you make a living for 4 people from it?

 

I think he is talking about the kind of herb that is smoked. 

[NCC1701A]

The world market controls the price of rice. Not the Thai government. Why not just give money to the farmers not to plant rice and save everyone a lot of hard work. And rice is so unhealthy for you. Stop the madness and learn to grow something else.

[billd766]

14 minutes ago, robblok said:

 

I think he is talking about the kind of herb that is smoked. 

 

I thought about that just after I posted.

 

Not much of a legal market for that in Thailand.