Experience at PoiPet border yesterday

[ubonjoe]

7 minutes ago, PattayaAJF said:

PercyinOz .. i have had (and currently have) a Retirement visa (extension??) for the last 5 years and my wife is Cambodian with a Thai Elite Visa.  when crossing the border at Klong Yai a year or so ago the immigration officer said after stamping our passports that our 5yo son (Australian Passport) would not be allowed to cross the border again because he has overstayed his 30 day entry so many times in the last 5 years that be will be "block" .. i of course asked to clarify that kids under 15yo don't require visas if their parents have valid visas which he confirmed however he stated that he would still be refused entry because he has overstayed so many times .. since then we have repeatedly gone in and out at the airport with no problems .. i have no idea why this is the case however if that's the rules (local or national) then that's the rules i guess ..   

Why have you not gotten an extension of stay for your son as your dependent based upon your extension based upon retirement. He would need to get a single entry non-o visa at an embassy in order to apply for it,

You child should still have a visa or extension. He is only exempt from paying an overstay fine not the requirement to have a visa or extension.

[PattayaAJF]

1 minute ago, ubonjoe said:

Why you not gotten an extension of stay for your son as your dependent based upon your extension based upon retirement. He would need to get a single entry non-o visa at an embassy in order to apply for it,

You child should still have a visa or extension. He is only exempt from not paying an overstay fine not the requirement to have a visa or extension.

i tried that at Jomtien Immigration in 2012 (and again in 2015)  and they refused saying he doesn't require a visa as long as my visa (extension??) is valid .. when i asked him if he was sure he replied something to the effect that he knows immigration rules and i shouldn't ask again .. something about wasting his time ..

 

i then check with immigration at the airport and they told me "he is not yet 15yo and doesn't need to have a visa as long as father visa is ok" .. so it seems that there may be some differences between what the Law says and what the frontline immigration officers want to do .. i don't know and have no view .. i just do what they tell me to do ..   

[elviajero]

26 minutes ago, PattayaAJF said:

i tried that at Jomtien Immigration in 2012 (and again in 2015)  and they refused saying he doesn't require a visa as long as my visa (extension??) is valid .. when i asked him if he was sure he replied something to the effect that he knows immigration rules and i shouldn't ask again .. something about wasting his time ..

 

i then check with immigration at the airport and they told me "he is not yet 15yo and doesn't need to have a visa as long as father visa is ok" .. so it seems that there may be some differences between what the Law says and what the frontline immigration officers want to do .. i don't know and have no view .. i just do what they tell me to do ..   

Everyone, including your son, must have permission to stay or they are in the country illegally, and anyone in immigration that tells you otherwise is wrong. The reason people often don't bother, and some IO's are relaxed about it, is because the child can't be fined or banned for overstaying. They could, however, be deported albeit highly unlikely.

 

The child illegally overstays and being denied entry for serial overstaying is not surprising. It sounds like Jomtien are being lazy probably because your son didn't have a non immigrant visa entry. You should get your your son a Non 'O' visa and insist that they process the extension of stay.

[elviajero]

11 hours ago, muzmurray said:

Where is the "loophole" ? Visas and extensions of stay are two totally different beasts, each with their own application criteria.

I would of thought it was obvious especially with my simple example. 

 

Yes they are two different beasts and meant for two different purposes. Extension of stay are meant for husbands that want permission to live here, and ME visas are meant for husbands living abroad that visit frequently. The loophole, or problem for immigration, is that for years people have been able to get the ME visa without proving finances, and as the ME visa can be used to stay here long term they have one group that they've control over and one they don't. IMO many people using the ME visa do so because they can't meet the financial criteria.

 

It has become harder and harder to get the ME visa over the last 10 years or so. We've recently seen consulates around the world have the power to issue ME visas taken away. It is blindingly obvious that immigration want those living here to be on an extension of stay.

 

I don't think they will do away with this visa, but I beleive the Embassies will come under more pressure to only issue the visa to those that meet the same financial criteria as required for an extension of stay. Penang being a recent example. I will also not be surprised if they stop land border hops at some borders in order to push more people to extensions of stay.

[elviajero]

10 hours ago, Bullie said:

I am one of the foreigner 2 types, and I certainly had to prove my financial standing to the tune of 20,000,- euro's in my bank account. Only difference is that I get to keep the monies in my home country.

You're not one of the "foreigner 2" types because you had to prove X cash in the bank. There are still plenty of embassies/consulates that don't ask to see cash in the bank or income.

[wobalt]

I would of thought it was obvious especially with my simple example. 
 
Yes they are two different beasts and meant for two different purposes. Extension of stay are meant for husbands that want permission to live here, and ME visas are meant for husbands living abroad that visit frequently. The loophole, or problem for immigration, is that for years people have been able to get the ME visa without proving finances, and as the ME visa can be used to stay here long term they have one group that they've control over and one they don't. IMO many people using the ME visa do so because they can't meet the financial criteria.
 
It has become harder and harder to get the ME visa over the last 10 years or so. We've recently seen consulates around the world have the power to issue ME visas taken away. It is blindingly obvious that immigration want those living here to be on an extension of stay.
 
I don't think they will do away with this visa, but I beleive the Embassies will come under more pressure to only issue the visa to those that meet the same financial criteria as required for an extension of stay. Penang being a recent example. I will also not be surprised if they stop land border hops at some borders in order to push more people to extensions of stay.

I have been granted ME visas for the simple reason that I am married with a Thai citizen. My wife has resident status in Europe, because she is married with me.
Regarding the financial aspects, well, we both earn more than enough money to support our stay here. We have our properties here and use them as our "hub" to run our projects overseas - so a lot of travel. The ME is perfect for that. This might change in some years, when we retire. Hopefully we will see some upgrading to Immigration 4.0 by then.
I do not see to get a ME visa is much more difficult than 10 y ago, the only thing that has changed is that the consulates now have to contact the local embassy to cross check the visa permission.
"The application for non-immigrant multiple visas is, in principle, again possible in the consulates, but requires an individual approval by the Thai embassy, ​​which is collected by the consulate."

[muzmurray]

9 hours ago, elviajero said:

I would of thought it was obvious especially with my simple example. 

 

Yes they are two different beasts and meant for two different purposes. Extension of stay are meant for husbands that want permission to live here, and ME visas are meant for husbands living abroad that visit frequently. The loophole, or problem for immigration, is that for years people have been able to get the ME visa without proving finances, and as the ME visa can be used to stay here long term they have one group that they've control over and one they don't. IMO many people using the ME visa do so because they can't meet the financial criteria.

 

It has become harder and harder to get the ME visa over the last 10 years or so. We've recently seen consulates around the world have the power to issue ME visas taken away. It is blindingly obvious that immigration want those living here to be on an extension of stay.

 

I don't think they will do away with this visa, but I beleive the Embassies will come under more pressure to only issue the visa to those that meet the same financial criteria as required for an extension of stay. Penang being a recent example. I will also not be surprised if they stop land border hops at some borders in order to push more people to extensions of stay.

 

It is still not a "loophole", nobody is circumventing the system or abusing it. All people are doing is making a choice, visa or extension. As both options are available it is up to the individual to choose which suits him best. 

 

"Extension of stay are meant for husbands that want permission to live here, and ME visas are meant for husbands living abroad that visit frequently." - Can you show me where it says that in the issuing criteria ? Or is that just your take on the situation ?

 

 

[Kenegg]

I had a strange experience at Mahasarakham Immigration Office last Monday 7th November 2016. Me and my boss Nok went to register me living at her address (as from the 4th November 2016) I got told off because I had not filled in a form T28 within 24 hours but they still did for me :-) But then they started doing a 90 report for me (I have a ME O Visa) I said I have to leave the country on the 30th January 2017 as per my stamp in the passport they said No report back here on the 30th no need to leave the country.... I think they have got things wrong but didn't want to argue...so I will leave the country on a border bounce  and go and report to them on the 29th and 30th Jan.

[4evermaat]

I had a strange experience at Mahasarakham Immigration Office last Monday 7th November 2016. Me and my boss Nok went to register me living at her address (as from the 4th November 2016) I got told off because I had not filled in a form T28 within 24 hours but they still did for me :-) But then they started doing a 90 report for me (I have a ME O Visa) I said I have to leave the country on the 30th January 2017 as per my stamp in the passport they said No report back here on the 30th no need to leave the country.... I think they have got things wrong but didn't want to argue...so I will leave the country on a border bounce  and go and report to them on the 29th and 30th Jan.

For a non immigrant ME visa where each entry is 90 days, only do the border hop as normal. No 90 day reporting needed. Not familiar with any reason to go to a local immigration office unless you need to do something specific, like obtain an Extension of stay, a certificate of residence, etc. You already report an address on the arrival card.

What exactly is T28?

[BritTim]

8 hours ago, Kenegg said:

I had a strange experience at Mahasarakham Immigration Office last Monday 7th November 2016. Me and my boss Nok went to register me living at her address (as from the 4th November 2016) I got told off because I had not filled in a form T28 within 24 hours but they still did for me :-) But then they started doing a 90 report for me (I have a ME O Visa) I said I have to leave the country on the 30th January 2017 as per my stamp in the passport they said No report back here on the 30th no need to leave the country.... I think they have got things wrong but didn't want to argue...so I will leave the country on a border bounce  and go and report to them on the 29th and 30th Jan.

 

I can see how they might want to see you immediately after your return for a TM-30. A 90--day report not leaving the country is weird. Maybe, what they are saying, is that they expect you to apply for an extension of stay instead? One possibility: there have been some reports, mostly discounted here, that crossing land borders for new entries on multiple entry Non O visas will no longer be possible after January 1st. Maybe, just maybe, what immigration was trying to tell you is that you must apply for an extension of stay.

 

EDIT: in the (still I think unlikely) event that land crossings for a new entry will not be allowed, what happens if you are refused an extension and given 7 days to leave the country? Will you be allowed to leave via a land border with a warning that your visa would not be honored for a return?

[elviajero]

14 hours ago, muzmurray said:

It is still not a "loophole", nobody is circumventing the system or abusing it. All people are doing is making a choice, visa or extension. As both options are available it is up to the individual to choose which suits him best. 

 

"Extension of stay are meant for husbands that want permission to live here, and ME visas are meant for husbands living abroad that visit frequently." - Can you show me where it says that in the issuing criteria ? Or is that just your take on the situation ?

If you accept what I'm saying regarding the purpose of a visa as opposed to an extension of stay, and that immigration want people living here to be vetted and 'controlled', you will see that many people are circumventing the system by using the ME visa to avoid the financial requirements and contact with immigration. If you don't then it's a pointless discussion.

 

Of course the decision is individual, and most people living here using a ME Non 'O' (spouse) are not breaking any rules. But I can assure you that immigration do not want anyone living here using a ME visa to avoid the criteria those with extensions of stay have to meet..

 

If you open your mind you will see the system for what it is, and everything that happens makes sense. As I've said, the ME visa is unlikely to disappear because there are plenty of people using it as it's meant to be, but I think they will continue to make it harder to get and probably compel Embassies to get proof of funds/income before issuing it.

 

The authorities have a big problem with fake marriages and part of the enhanced scrutiny of extension applications, and now ME visas, is down to fighting that.

[muzmurray]

10 hours ago, elviajero said:

But I can assure you that immigration do not want anyone living here using a ME visa to avoid the criteria those with extensions of stay have to meet..

 

If you open your mind you will see the system for what it is, and everything that happens makes sense. As I've said, the ME visa is unlikely to disappear because there are plenty of people using it as it's meant to be, but I think they will continue to make it harder to get and probably compel Embassies to get proof of funds/income before issuing it.

 

So now you are speaking for Thai immigration and their ongoing and future policies, where did you gain such insight?

 

Many embassies already ask for proof of funds before issuing.

[wobalt]

If you accept what I'm saying regarding the purpose of a visa as opposed to an extension of stay, and that immigration want people living here to be vetted and 'controlled', you will see that many people are circumventing the system by using the ME visa to avoid the financial requirements and contact with immigration.

Circumventing the system by using the ME...I don't think that is the case for most. As said in another post you have already today to show financial funds to apply for a ME.
Our monthly salary is higher than the 400k necessary for an extension for one year. But as we have properties in Europe and Thailand, my wife has to keep her residency and projects there running as well. So we do not stay all time together. Ten years ago I was invited from the Thai government to assist them in some matters. Since then I decided to stay permanently in Thailand, serving my projects in Asia. But Thailand is not ready for modern lifestyles, I guess.
Of cause we could easily circumvent the EoS application system, but you think this is correct?? Therefore our decision by now is to use MEs as it fits to our stay here.

Avoiding contact to immigration - possibly yes, this is true. Sorry, I have no time to spend my time there if not really necessary and being sometimes treated as an alien without no civil rights.
And by the way, the extension of stay is a temporary permission to stay in Thailand as well, but it gives you not the right to live here for all times.

[Lee4Life]

On ‎11‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 5:53 PM, Maestro said:

 

If you had started with the retirement extensions 14 years ago the financial requirements for it would be much lower. Presumably, you made an informed decision when you chose the visa route but a change to one-year extensions remains open to you, albeit at the current conditions. It is up to you to decide which route you find more convenient and practical.

 

From a legal point of view, the retirement extensions would be the correct type of permission to stay for you, not back-to-back entries with visas or visa-exempt.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Thaivisa Connect mobile app
 

 

I am a bit confused by your post, I am here on an O-A multi-entry retirement visa issued at an overseas royal consulate. Are you saying that if I choose to apply for a new O-A Visa at the same consulate next year instead of applying for an extension here in Thailand and then do border crossings rather than 90 day reports that I am doing something incorrect?  Please explain.

[darrendsd]

13 hours ago, elviajero said:

If you accept what I'm saying regarding the purpose of a visa as opposed to an extension of stay, and that immigration want people living here to be vetted and 'controlled', you will see that many people are circumventing the system by using the ME visa to avoid the financial requirements and contact with immigration. If you don't then it's a pointless discussion.

 

Of course the decision is individual, and most people living here using a ME Non 'O' (spouse) are not breaking any rules. But I can assure you that immigration do not want anyone living here using a ME visa to avoid the criteria those with extensions of stay have to meet..

 

If you open your mind you will see the system for what it is, and everything that happens makes sense. As I've said, the ME visa is unlikely to disappear because there are plenty of people using it as it's meant to be, but I think they will continue to make it harder to get and probably compel Embassies to get proof of funds/income before issuing it.

 

The authorities have a big problem with fake marriages and part of the enhanced scrutiny of extension applications, and now ME visas, is down to fighting that.

 

So based on 2-3 reports, at least one of which comes from the most corrupt crossing in Thailand you have managed to come up with all of the above?

 

If it is true that in future land crossings will not be available for ME holders but entering at Airports is ok how does this support what you have said about not wanting people to live here on ME and being able to control them? There is no difference between entering overland or at a Airport, the procedure is the same, if before someone used a land crossing but in future has to fly in there is no difference apart from the possible extra expense

 

You seem to know (or think you know) a lot about future Immigration policy, do you have connections to someone at Immigration? If so maybe you can help fellow members by asking if this will be a official policy in January next year?

 

And before you say it no I am not trolling you I am simply asking for your sources, as you said " But I can assure you that immigration do not want anyone living here using a ME visa to avoid the criteria those with extensions of stay have to meet"

 

"I can assure you" This implies that you have been told this by someone high up

[Lee4Life]

19 minutes ago, Lee4Life said:

I am a bit confused by your post, I am here on an O-A multi-entry retirement visa issued at an overseas royal consulate. Are you saying that if I choose to apply for a new O-A Visa at the same consulate next year instead of applying for an extension here in Thailand and then do border crossings rather than 90 day reports that I am doing something incorrect?  Please explain.

Never mind...I see that you explained your view already in a later post.

 

 

[elviajero]

On 11/16/2016 at 0:44 AM, muzmurray said:

So now you are speaking for Thai immigration and their ongoing and future policies, where did you gain such insight?

 

Many embassies already ask for proof of funds before issuing.

I am speaking for myself, "I". 

Penang is a simple example. They now want 400K in the bank or 40K income before issuing a ME visa.

 

Can you list the many embassies that ask for proof of funds?

Some embassies do, but the relevance to the conversation is that some don't. Savannakhet being a perfect example and the go to place for many expats living here that can't meet the financial requirements of an extension of stay.

[elviajero]

On 11/16/2016 at 1:34 AM, wobalt said:

Circumventing the system by using the ME...I don't think that is the case for most. As said in another post you have already today to show financial funds to apply for a ME.

Of cause we could easily circumvent the EoS application system, but you think this is correct?? Therefore our decision by now is to use MEs as it fits to our stay here.

And by the way, the extension of stay is a temporary permission to stay in Thailand as well, but it gives you not the right to live here for all times.

I think you will find that many expats using the ME visa do so because they can't meet the requirements for an extension of stay. Evidenced by many ThaiVisa threads. I drove a friend to Savannakhet last year to get his visa, and I take hime to the Myanmar border every three months. He can't meet the financial requirements and is using the visa to circumvent the system and continue to live in Thailand.

 

I have no problem with people using the ME visa to live here. But every action by immigration and consular services suggests the authorities do.

 

There is no way Thailand would deliberately come up with a system that allowed one group of foreigners to stay in the country using a visa and make others have to meet financial and other criteria. The ME visa and an extension of stay are meant for two different groups of visitors. As more and more expats switch to, or use, the ME visa to live here the more the authorities will tighten up on issuing the visa. Exactly as is happening.

 

I know it's temporary permission to stay. But if someone wants temporary permission to stay (live) for 1 year Thailand clearly expects the person to meet certain financial criteria.

[elviajero]

On 11/16/2016 at 3:26 AM, darrendsd said:

 

So based on 2-3 reports, at least one of which comes from the most corrupt crossing in Thailand you have managed to come up with all of the above?

 

If it is true that in future land crossings will not be available for ME holders but entering at Airports is ok how does this support what you have said about not wanting people to live here on ME and being able to control them? There is no difference between entering overland or at a Airport, the procedure is the same, if before someone used a land crossing but in future has to fly in there is no difference apart from the possible extra expense

 

You seem to know (or think you know) a lot about future Immigration policy, do you have connections to someone at Immigration? If so maybe you can help fellow members by asking if this will be a official policy in January next year?

 

And before you say it no I am not trolling you I am simply asking for your sources, as you said " But I can assure you that immigration do not want anyone living here using a ME visa to avoid the criteria those with extensions of stay have to meet"

 

"I can assure you" This implies that you have been told this by someone high up

My opinions are not based on 2-3 reports.

 

I would imagine it would have the same affect that stopping visa exempt border hops had and would reduce the numbers of people using the ME visa because of the hassle. 

 

I am not telling you what future immigration policy will be, but offering my opinion about why things are happening and what might happen in the future.

 

I have several close connections with immigration, but I am offering opinion of what might happen based on several factors (trends). If I had a credible source telling me the January rumor was true I would share it.

 

Your assumption of "I assure you" is wrong. The phrase is used to emphasize the truth of what 'I am saying'.

[wobalt]

I think you will find that many expats using the ME visa do so because they can't meet the requirements for an extension of stay. Evidenced by many ThaiVisa threads. I drove a friend to Savannakhet last year to get his visa, and I take hime to the Myanmar border every three months. He can't meet the financial requirements and is using the visa to circumvent the system and continue to live in Thailand.

 

I have no problem with people using the ME visa to live here. But every action by immigration and consular services suggests the authorities do.

 

There is no way Thailand would deliberately come up with a system that allowed one group of foreigners to stay in the country using a visa and make others have to meet financial and other criteria. The ME visa and an extension of stay are meant for two different groups of visitors. As more and more expats switch to, or use, the ME visa to live here the more the authorities will tighten up on issuing the visa. Exactly as is happening.

 

I know it's temporary permission to stay. But if someone wants temporary permission to stay (live) for 1 year Thailand clearly expects the person to meet certain financial criteria.

I easily would meet the financial criteria but only would get an extension when I circumvent it.

The full system more than 30 years old, needs a complete overhaul, I.e allowing residency for married people after some years in the country, independent from the working aspect. An extension is nice but all the requirements, which comes with it from 90 days report to TM xyz to 24 h registration let me think that expats including myself are treated as unwanted criminals. Some years ago I imported a dog into Thailand - he is now resident here, I am not.

I am not sure if TV threads are representative as indicator but I guess not. Both systems are together around for at least one decade , so anyone have the choice what application he prefers.

[elviajero]

2 minutes ago, wobalt said:

I easily would meet the financial criteria but only would get an extension
The full system more than 30 years old, needs a complete overhaul, I.e allowing residency for married people after some years in, independent from the working aspect. An extension is nice but all the requirements comes with it from 90 days report to TM xyz to 24 h registration let me think that expats including myself are treated as unwanted criminals

I agree it needs updating, and the fact that the system was set 37 years ago is part of the reason the loopholes exist. I've no idea when the immigration act will get updated, but until it is immigration seem to be doing what they can to plug the gaps in the system. You should also be pointing the finger at some expats because their actions create greater immigration enforcement which tends to have an affect on all of us.

[wobalt]

I agree it needs updating, and the fact that the system was set 37 years ago is part of the reason the loopholes exist. I've no idea when the immigration act will get updated, but until it is immigration seem to be doing what they can to plug the gaps in the system. You should also be pointing the finger at some expats because their actions create greater immigration enforcement which tends to have an affect on all of us.

Yes, I agree. However working as consultant for the Thai government for many years I understand quite well how they work. And here lies the danger - plugging gaps in the system without considering the impacts. Only a complete systematic approach would solve the issues.

[wobalt]

5 hours ago, elviajero said:

DELETED

As discussed before it is not that easy. Both systems are around for more than a decade for good reasons. I would assume that more than 80% of the ME user use the ME as it is - a multiple entry visa, valid for a period of 1 y, leaving the country after 90 days. My visa is granted due to the fact that I am married to a Thai citizen since more than 20y. There is no visiting clause. What about Thais living abroad and hold no Thai passports anymore? So they should show 400k to apply for a visa for their country? If you put such requirements on a Non-O, what does that mean.? You show 400k on the day of application but would need no seasoning? I guess in that case, many 'extension' people would more than happy to go this way...circumvention?
In Germany the honorary consulates are again allowed to issue multiple entry Non immigrant visa. I see no big difference than before so far. Applying for ME Visas in neighboring countries of Thailand was always a bit different than applying in home countries. What I realized over the years as well is that the requirements and conditions for an extension is getting more worser. So what does that will mean? Stricter controlling of a small part of the population, because expats are considered as a threat to the values of the Thai society?
Putting people in a shadow society with no integration policy is something other governments try to avoid under all circumstances. But in Thailand? Do we see financial requirements of 1 or 2 million in the near future? MEs are legal, but no loopholes. Of cause everything can be abused.

[wobalt]

What has to be done asap is to review and update the immigration act, which is from ancient times and does not fit to the global changes in living, working etc.
Closing the so called loopholes make not really sense as long there is no clear and optimized description of the act/law and all immigration offices are streamlined and have to follow it. No different interpretations of the requirements anymore if another "boss" comes in charge etc. Everyone has to follow the same rule.
Automatic granting of residency for long term expats after a certain period of time as in most other countries...but I know TiT

[seedy]

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[ubonjoe]

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