The anti-Trump resistance takes shape: 'Government's supposed to fear us'

[Strange]

29 minutes ago, Morch said:

Not much into labeling, but how does one reference racism without calling it racist?

I'm not talking about slinging it at every available opportunity, which may have been what you meant by "simple debate", though.

 

Thats exactly what I meant. Slinging it at every opportunity. Seriously, I've been called just about every derogatory name that is allowed on this forum, just simply for being pro trump. 

 

Having an open debate about racism or discrimination or whatever is very possible without being nasty. 

 

All you got to do is go back in these political threads prior to and after election day and the venom is thick and its usually from the left to the right and has been that way for a while. 

[dick dasterdly]

More on topic, I agree with the general sentiment of 'governments are supposed to fear the electorate - not the other way around'.

 

Perhaps not 'fear', but at least be concerned about the views of the electorate.

 

This hasn't been the case for a long, long time - hence the shock over Brexit and Trump!

[Morch]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm assuming that the rallies didn't go on for many days?

 

Not that it matters as I'm assuming (admittedly, never a good idea!) that the protesters are taking a day's holiday every now and again.  Apart from the students of course, for whom it is far easier to take a few days 'off'.

 

Not all protests are carried out during business hours or on weekdays. Attendance overall may be impressive, but I dunno that there's a constant mass presence as such. Similarly, Trump's rallies were conducted all through both of his campaigns.

[Jingthing]

Many people in the USA are retired, students, taking a break, flexible work schedule (home workers, etc.), stopped looking for work because looked for a long time with no results, normally unemployed (between jobs), unemployable, disabled, or underemployed. That situation crosses ideological lines. 

Edited November 22, 2016 by Jingthing

[Strange]

25 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I think the problem is that anyone saying that immigration is a problem, is labeled a racist.

 

Also, anyone that voted trump must be a racist. 

 

Anyone that seriously disliked Hillary must be a misogynist. 

 

Anyone that Supported Trump must be anti gay rights. 

 

On and on and on.... Any possible way to be spun, it was and still is. 

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Strange said:

 

Thats exactly what I meant. Slinging it at every opportunity. Seriously, I've been called just about every derogatory name that is allowed on this forum, just simply for being pro trump. 

 

Having an open debate about racism or discrimination or whatever is very possible without being nasty. 

 

All you got to do is go back in these political threads prior to and after election day and the venom is thick and its usually from the left to the right and has been that way for a while. 

 

Well, you do dish out some yourself, as well. I'm not a newcomer to this forum or these topics, so guess I can safely say labeling and mudslinging are hardly limited to one side or another.

[AlexRich]

22 hours ago, Basil B said:

 

Brits???

I would not call a bunch of "Scottish Independence Loonies" who could not accept the result of the Scottish Independence referendum "Elites" 

 

Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU, as did Northern Ireland. In England, areas such as London, Cambridge, Oxford voted to stay in the EU also ... if the vote was based on IQ points, the remain vote would have won by a landslide.

 

Now the lunatics have taken over the asylum ... just like Trump's America.

[Strange]

39 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Well, you do dish out some yourself, as well. I'm not a newcomer to this forum or these topics, so guess I can safely say labeling and mudslinging are hardly limited to one side or another.

 

Oh yeah of course I do. My patience is non-existent anymore. Im so over this childish 'revolution' nonsense and the rhetoric involved and I'm damn sure tired of the derogatory comments as well. 

 

I can safely say as well that the nasty mudslinging definitely comes from the left, probably the extreme left, and its directed at ANYONE that isnt in their camp & they have zero intention of logical debate on any issue. 

 

All I can say now is that this mindset is probably the straw that broke the camels back in this election & the rioting, protests, and the ridiculous idea that "The government should fear us" is just cementing their place on the sidelines. 

[Strange]

57 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Many people in the USA are retired, students, taking a break, flexible work schedule (home workers, etc.), stopped looking for work because looked for a long time with no results, normally unemployed (between jobs), unemployable, disabled, or underemployed. That situation crosses ideological lines. 

 

And they are rioting & protesting and calling it a revolution and that the "Government should fear them" because they can't get a job? 

 

I have never met anyone in my entire life that was "Unemployable" in the USA. Unless they are a convicted Felon in witch case they are a non-voice and non-issue. 

[F4UCorsair]

4 hours ago, Rob13 said:

 

Bit naellectualnrrow tininking there. The jobs the elitesincreate begin to be more menial labor with low ptheny and benfits while ithe bulk of money being circulated passes between the elites.  

 

Take a large manufacturing company.....How many CEO's?  How many workers?  Of course there are more jobs, many more, at the bottom end.  It's how business works.

 

There Is a far left party In Australia, the Greens, the watermeloin party, green on the outside, red on the Inside, who advocate stripping wealth from the very wealthy and distributuIng It to the poor.  Problem Is, It would be back In the same hands In a few years, because the poor are poor for a reason....they lack enterprise and can't manage money.

High taxation of companies/the wealthy, In an attempt to appease the 'poor' results In companies basing elsewhere, eg., company tax In Australia Is 30%, In Singapore It's 18%, and It doesn't take an Intellectual to know what's happening there, and the Aust gov't loses all round.

I'm not super wealthy, but OK.  When I was young, I aspired to be wealthy, and not for a second did I begrudge wealthy people their wealth, or want part of It.

I've been lucky, and the harder I've worked, the luckier I've been.

 

Unable to edit typos and capital 'I' (eye).

[dick dasterdly]

13 minutes ago, Strange said:

 

Oh yeah of course I do. My patience is non-existent anymore. Im so over this childish 'revolution' nonsense and the rhetoric involved and I'm damn sure tired of the derogatory comments as well. 

 

I can safely say as well that the nasty mudslinging definitely comes from the left, probably the extreme left, and its directed at ANYONE that isnt in their camp & they have zero intention of logical debate on any issue. 

 

All I can say now is that this mindset is probably the straw that broke the camels back in this election & the rioting, protests, and the ridiculous idea that "The government should fear us" is just cementing their place on the sidelines. 

Rubbish.

 

I'm very far left (certainly compared to the Democrats and Labour party), and yet choose not to use childish abuse.

[Redline]

22 hours ago, Jingthing said:

He did legally win.

Much to American's eternal embarrassment. 

We did this.

Own it, accept it, and now work on fighting against the horribleness we have wrought. 

I accept it, but like he said, the system is rigged.  Most of his policies are back asswards.  Get rid of the EPA, the education department, high tariffs that will hurt the average American...time for the rich to get super rich. 

He's giving China everything they want to fund their plan to dominate.  China will reap the benefits, and our allies will have no choice but to go in their direction.  Simply a puppet master he is.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Redline said:

I accept it, but like he said, the system is rigged.  Most of his policies are back asswards.  Get rid of the EPA, the education department, high tariffs that will hurt the average American...time for the rich to get super rich. 

He's giving China everything they want to fund their plan to dominate.  China will reap the benefits, and our allies will have no choice but to go in their direction.  Simply a puppet master he is.

Much as I dislike Trump, I suspect he is only a puppet if it suits his own financial interests.

 

But the main point in the OP is right - governments are meant to 'fear' the electorate, and Trump winning has (I hope) made the Democrat party start thinking about those they'd previously abandoned in their pursuit of their own, and corporate, interest.

[Redline]

22 hours ago, muffy said:

Liberals to the back of the bus never to recover .

Lala land

[Redline]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

Much as I dislike Trump, I suspect he is only a puppet if it suits his own financial interests.

 

But the main point in the OP is right - governments are meant to 'fear' the electorate, and Trump winning has (I hope) made the Democrat party start thinking about those they'd previously abandoned in their pursuit of their own, and corporate, interest.

Agreed.  Politics have been frozen in the USA.  I hope this smashes the ice, and gets some common sense into both parties.  Or, simply smashes them both so we can really get something new

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Redline said:

Lala land

Quite.

 

Money will 'trump' in the end I suspect .

[Strange]

46 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Rubbish.

 

I'm very far left (certainly compared to the Democrats and Labour party), and yet choose not to use childish abuse.

 

No your not man I don't think its the same thing in The UK as a US Liberal/Progressive. Maybe by definition but certainly not in behavior (for the most part anyway)

[Tony125]

22 hours ago, sgtsabai said:

For those that continue on the right wing Kool-aid and say illegals voted, that is a flat out lie. There is no voter fraud, although a fascist voter did get caught voting twice. There was voter suppression, massive voter suppression and the despicable Republicans were bragging about it. The blue dawg corporate Democrat "elite" and the DNC brought this disaster on the US and the world. The fascist is a charlatan and a con man and he conned many people. Not me and no I didn't vote for the Clintons either.

 

The left, not the "liberals" whoever the hell they are, will continue to oppose the fascist, racist, homophobic, misogynist, bigoted, anti-Constitution, cabal being formed by the fascist party. The scary part is when the fascist is impeached by his own "party" a real religious, right wing, homophobic, dominionist will take over. Not my president nor VP. Tar and feather the cabal and run them out of the country.

Subject: The right of illegals to vote

 

 

http://www.truthandaction.org/supreme-court-states-prevent-illegal-aliens-voting-u-s-elections/

Supreme Court: States Cannot Prevent ... - Truth And Action

www.truthandaction.org

In a stunning ruling, the Supreme Court of the United States struck down an Arizona law requiring voters to present citizenship proof to register in state and federal ...

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SUPREME COURT: STATES CANNOT PREVENT ILLEGAL ALIENS FROM VOTING IN U.S. ELECTIONS

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States have the right to determine who can vote in federal or local elections.

The Supreme Court is in clear violation of the Constitution here.

We are living in a lawless country folks!

In a stunning ruling, the Supreme Court of the United States struck down an Arizona law requiring voters to present citizenship proof to register in state and federal elections.

 

The law clears the way to illegal alien undocumented immigrants voting in national elections without substantive means of preventing it for many states. The highest court in the land ruled 7-2 that federal law “precludes Arizona from requiring a federal form applicant to submit information beyond that required by the form itself,” as Justice Scalia wrote. Professor Tom Caso of the Chapman University School of Law in California told the Associated Press that the decision “opened the door” to noncitizen voting.

“The court’s decision ignores the clear dictates of the Constitution in favor of bureaucratic red tape,” Caso said. Justices Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito dissented from the court’s ruling.

The Constitution “authorizes states to determine the qualifications of voters in federal elections, which necessarily includes the related power to determine whether those qualifications are satisfied,” Thomas wrote in his dissent.

It will be interesting to see how the Democrats who argue that requiring proof of citizenship is a needless burden on their “vulnerable” constituents will be able to maintain that mendacious line when Obamacare documentationrequirements are added to IRS reporting next year. Is that not a burden on “vulnerable” constituencies?

[dick dasterdly]

49 minutes ago, Strange said:

 

No your not man I don't think its the same thing in The UK as a US Liberal/Progressive. Maybe by definition but certainly not in behavior (for the most part anyway)

Not really.

 

The 'left' was blamed in the UK for brexit, even though the Labour party supported remain....

 

The same seems to be happening with the Trump vote.

 

In both cases it boiled down to normal Democrat voters voting for Trump (standing as a Republican).  Any idea why?

 

But you're probably sticking to 'the line' that they were all racists and weren't voting for someone/ANYONE that would throw out the current elite and start a shakedown of all political parties caring about nothing other than their own financial interests.

 

Edit - posters seem unable to differentiate between the 'far right' and the 'left'.....

 

It seems more likely that a large number of Democrat voters voted for Trump because he was their only chance of change from the status quo.  And let's be honest, as in the UK, the different parties were indistinguishable from each other - caring only about their own financial interests that co-incided with corporate financial interests.....

Edited November 22, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[jcsmith]

21 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

In both cases it boiled down to normal Democrat voters voting for Trump (standing as a Republican).  Any idea why?

 

I haven't heard of a large number of democrats voting for Trump at all. I think the problem the democrats had were that too many did not vote. Reference: http://www.forbes.com/sites/omribenshahar/2016/11/17/the-non-voters-who-decided-the-election-trump-won-because-of-lower-democratic-turnout/

[muffy]

Trump will be the greatest president ever .

[Jingthing]

Just now, muffy said:

Trump will be the greatest president ever .

Sure thing, like Chavez was the greatest Venezuelan president. Different kinds of great. 

[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, jcsmith said:

 

I haven't heard of a large number of democrats voting for Trump at all. I think the problem the democrats had were that too many did not vote. Reference: http://www.forbes.com/sites/omribenshahar/2016/11/17/the-non-voters-who-decided-the-election-trump-won-because-of-lower-democratic-turnout/

A lot did. trump turned a lot of districts that had gone Obama before. Democrats have become associated with coastal elites in the minds of many and trump's campaign smartly exploited that. 

Edited November 22, 2016 by Jingthing

[Morch]

34 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

A lot did. trump turned a lot of districts that had gone Obama before. Democrats have become associated with coastal elites in the minds of many and trump's campaign smartly exploited that. 

 

Democrats have become associated with coastal elites in the minds of many and trump's campaign smartly exploited that. 

 

And there's little evidence, so far (I know...give it time?) that the Democrats are keen on addressing this issue. A negative campaign, highlighting the worst in Trump may or may not be sufficient. Such a statement does not posit the Democrats as a better choice, but again, as the lesser of two evils. So yes, probably going to take a bit of time to lick wounds and settle some scores, but at some point, there needs to be a new message. I have no idea what this will be, and who'll pick up the reins, though.

[Rob13]

5 hours ago, F4UCorsair said:

 

There Is a far left party In Australia, the Greens, the watermeloin party, green on the outside, red on the Inside, who advocate stripping wealth from the very wealthy and distributuIng It to the poor.  Problem Is, It would be back In the same hands In a few years, because the poor are poor for a reason....they lack enterprise and can't manage money.

High taxation of companies/the wealthy, In an attempt to appease the 'poor' results In companies basing elsewhere, eg., company tax In Australia Is 30%, In Singapore It's 18%, and It doesn't take an Intellectual to know what's happening there, and the Aust gov't loses all roun

 

Problem going on today is the money is piling up at the top, causing the middle class to shrink. The number of people just getting by is increasing. Makes for a lot of angry people like you're seeing now.

 

A guy stocking shelves going from pay check to paycheck trying to provide for his family can't help but be angry when he sees top level execs handing themselves multi-million dollar year end bonuses, while he doesn't even get a few cents raise. The way I see it Adam Smith's invisible hand capitalism has pretty much run it's course. Unless those at the top are willing to curtail their greed enough to let the middle class begin to increase it's numbers again.

[Opl]

2 hours ago, muffy said:

Trump will be the greatest president ever .

 

At the head of America.inc,  a Nation dedicated to entrepreneurship  , DT - businessman and political autocrate - will use all means to remain in power and make the pile,  in the continuity of his campaign.

Trump will give symbolic satisfactions to his voters. They will have deregulation for Wall Street and anti-immigration controls, anti-Semitism with Bannon and reonciliation with Netanyahu, the end of the TPP and the continuation of trade with China.

Blunder, confusion and lies

Edited November 22, 2016 by Opl

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, Rob13 said:

 

Problem going on today is the money is piling up at the top, causing the middle class to shrink. The number of people just getting by is increasing. Makes for a lot of angry people like you're seeing now.

 

A guy stocking shelves going from pay check to paycheck trying to provide for his family can't help but be angry when he sees top level execs handing themselves multi-million dollar year end bonuses, while he doesn't even get a few cents raise. The way I see it Adam Smith's invisible hand capitalism has pretty much run it's course. Unless those at the top are willing to curtail their greed enough to let the middle class begin to increase it's numbers again.

And those at the bottom of 'the chain'.

 

I think its the middle class who are most disillusioned at the way those at the top are increasing their wealth at the expense of everyone else, but that's only because those at the bottom realised this earlier.

[ClutchClark]

44 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

And those at the bottom of 'the chain'.

 

I think its the middle class who are most disillusioned at the way those at the top are increasing their wealth at the expense of everyone else, but that's only because those at the bottom realised this earlier.

 

I will buy that.

 

The Middle Class always thought that they could work their way up to a better life...because they could. I think those at the bottom never had that level of imagination.

 

Real wages for the middle class have been stagnant now for a generation. The middle class who made sure their children received a college education are fairing upward mobility much better.

 

 

 

 

[lannarebirth]

6 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Democrats have become associated with coastal elites in the minds of many and trump's campaign smartly exploited that. 

 

And there's little evidence, so far (I know...give it time?) that the Democrats are keen on addressing this issue. A negative campaign, highlighting the worst in Trump may or may not be sufficient. Such a statement does not posit the Democrats as a better choice, but again, as the lesser of two evils. So yes, probably going to take a bit of time to lick wounds and settle some scores, but at some point, there needs to be a new message. I have no idea what this will be, and who'll pick up the reins, though.

 

I don't think the so called alt-right nativist crowd helped the Reps win the election, but I do think the alt-left (if you will) identity politics crowd lost the Dems the election. Not that anyone's got anything against the members of that group, but because they consider themselves distinct from the greater "melting pot" that is America. Democrats never understood this as their leadership was only cynically parsing up the electorate to get a majority but they were undermining the fabric of society as they did so. Some Dems understand this.

 

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/bernie-sanders-democrats-identity-politics-231710

Edited November 22, 2016 by lannarebirth

[lannarebirth]

1 hour ago, lannarebirth said:

 

I don't think the so called alt-right nativist crowd helped the Reps win the election, but I do think the alt-left (if you will) identity politics crowd lost the Dems the election. Not that anyone's got anything against the members of that group, but because they consider themselves distinct from the greater "melting pot" that is America. Democrats never understood this as their leadership was only cynically parsing up the electorate to get a majority but they were undermining the fabric of society as they did so. Some Dems understand this.

 

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/bernie-sanders-democrats-identity-politics-231710

 

 

Another good article:
 

Quote

 

How the Left Created Trump

Herein lies the problem with the left’s “by any means necessary” style of social activism: When any challenge to the prevailing liberal doctrine, cast under the wrong light, can forever cast one as a “racist,” those with dissenting opinions are left with only two options: concede, or retaliate.

 

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/11/how-the-left-created-donald-trump-214472