US: Officers douse Dakota pipeline protesters in subfreezing weather

[iReason]

15 hours ago, ClutchClark said:

Big difference between "treated for hypothermia" and actually having hypothermia.

 

What is it?

Rather than spouting unsubstantiated claims, go ahead and explain your statement.

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, jaidam said:

This whole saga has surely brought the double standards involving so called native Americans to light. That they behave like spoiled brats is because they have had it all too good for too long. It is imperrative that the double standards they enjoy are ended immediately. All Americans must be subject to the same laws, none of this whole I'm 5% native so I can open a casino any time I want, I don't need a hunting license, closed seasons and bag limits don't apply to me. I don't need to pay tax etc etc. no wonder they are behaving like uppity kids. 

IMO no one that actually understood American history could have your viewpoint. Perhaps you could read about the "trail of tears" and the death of Sitting Bull to gain some understanding of the reality of what the US government did to Native Americans. By this present fracas, seems they are still screwing them.

[jaidam]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO no one that actually understood American history could have your viewpoint. Perhaps you could read about the "trail of tears" and the death of Sitting Bull to gain some understanding of the reality of what the US government did to Native Americans. By this present fracas, seems they are still screwing them.

No question wrongs were done to them, but it was all a long time ago. Nobody alive today must feel guilty for introducing modern diseases to the Indians, or slavery etc that groups still harp on about injustices done by generations long forgotten about is pure lunacy and should be given no credit.

[thaibeachlovers]

25 minutes ago, jaidam said:

No question wrongs were done to them, but it was all a long time ago. Nobody alive today must feel guilty for introducing modern diseases to the Indians, or slavery etc that groups still harp on about injustices done by generations long forgotten about is pure lunacy and should be given no credit.

Oh dear. The injustices continue, as with the pipeline on their land.

Ask why the alternative route that went upriver of the city wasn't used. Very informative.

[jaidam]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Oh dear. The injustices continue, as with the pipeline on their land.

Ask why the alternative route that went upriver of the city wasn't used. Very informative.

Im guessing these folk on their time of from work with too much energy were exempt over the generations from paying inheritance tax for what they are claiming as "their land"? The saying "the devil makes work for idle hands" is certainly applicable here. I'm also wondering if these low% genetically native Americans use gas to heat their homes in winter, or to cook on their bbq? More than a fair dose of NIMBYism going on. 

[geriatrickid]

22 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

As I understand it the pipeline does NOT cross tribal land, and the company appears to have made every reasonable effort to accommodate concerns. Also there are many other pipelines in the same area and this pipe is in the same corridor as another pipeline.

Given that almost every protestor came by oil powered vehicles, the protests are somewhat hypocritical.

It's a hard one for me, as I sympathise with the fate of the Native Americans, but I feel that on this one they are on the wrong side. By all means insist on having automatic shut down valves in the event of a leak under the river and daily testing of the water quality, but it's not their land.

 

We'll disagree on the legitimacy of the route and the merits of the pipeline. Although, we are probably in agreement on 95% of the isuses. Here's my personal issue on why I  cannot support this pipeline: There is minimal accountability if something goes wrong and there is no actual tested and reliable emergency response plan that can address an oil leak into the river and lake.No one will be held accountable. When is the last time any  industrial polluter company's directors and officers  was sent to jail for their conduct involving a pollution incident?

The pipeline company does not have to post a reserve  anywhere near anything significant to pay for a cleanup. If there is a catastophic leak, the  operating company merely declares bankruptcy and  can walk away  from a judgement. Large oil spills can't be cleaned up. Look at the  Exxon Valdez disaster. The coastline is still fouled with oil.  If you could offer a guarantee that people  behaving in a negligent or irresponsible manner would be held accountable and that the company would be obliged to pay for the cleanup that I would be more sympathetic. The  track record of the US  oil industry has been exceptionally poor over the years. If it wasn't for the Nixon GOP admin, there wouldn't even be any semblance of  environmental protection laws, and boy did the oil industry fight  the rules tooth and nail.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

 

We'll disagree on the legitimacy of the route and the merits of the pipeline. Although, we are probably in agreement on 95% of the isuses. Here's my personal issue on why I  cannot support this pipeline: There is minimal accountability if something goes wrong and there is no actual tested and reliable emergency response plan that can address an oil leak into the river and lake.No one will be held accountable. When is the last time any  industrial polluter company's directors and officers  was sent to jail for their conduct involving a pollution incident?

The pipeline company does not have to post a reserve  anywhere near anything significant to pay for a cleanup. If there is a catastophic leak, the  operating company merely declares bankruptcy and  can walk away  from a judgement. Large oil spills can't be cleaned up. Look at the  Exxon Valdez disaster. The coastline is still fouled with oil.  If you could offer a guarantee that people  behaving in a negligent or irresponsible manner would be held accountable and that the company would be obliged to pay for the cleanup that I would be more sympathetic. The  track record of the US  oil industry has been exceptionally poor over the years. If it wasn't for the Nixon GOP admin, there wouldn't even be any semblance of  environmental protection laws, and boy did the oil industry fight  the rules tooth and nail.

 

Please do not use that quote again. I have done a 180 on the pipeline and agree it should be routed upstream of the city on the alternative route.

 

[GinBoy2]

3 hours ago, jaidam said:

This whole saga has surely brought the double standards involving so called native Americans to light. That they behave like spoiled brats is because they have had it all too good for too long. It is imperrative that the double standards they enjoy are ended immediately. All Americans must be subject to the same laws, none of this whole I'm 5% native so I can open a casino any time I want, I don't need a hunting license, closed seasons and bag limits don't apply to me. I don't need to pay tax etc etc. no wonder they are behaving like uppity kids. 

I'd be a tad careful with this.

 

Not sure where you're from, but I'm a Californian, and my whole life experience was with the 5% native Americans, who looked to me as a Hispanic, darn sight 'whitier' than most of me and my family.

My ex worked for several years as a finance analyst for a 'tribe' in dealing with tribal grants and allocations, and since they owned one of the largest casino's in the Bay Area were rolling in cash, and yep it's a scam.

 

However, things change substantially when you come across the Plains Indians. I spend a good deal of time when I was in the USAF in the plains States, and still own a house in South Dakota.

 

There you see Native Americans, who look like Native Americans, not some white guy in a suit working in Silicon Valley, happily telling you he's "1/12 Coastal Miwok" . Venture onto the reservation lands in the Dakota's, and you most definitely leave the America I know, and certainly a world away from the casino owning 'tribes' of California, and I suspect most of the other metropolitan States. There you see true deprivation and poverty, far beyond what you see in some urban ghetto, that's not being a spoiled brat.

 

Now this whole Dakota access thing may well have turned into a celebrity circus, but whereas my sympathies for those Cali 'Indian's is zero, cant help feeling there is much more 'real' feeling and true conviction in this

Edited November 23, 2016 by GinBoy2

[sgtsabai]

Oh wait, "nobel savages", that is about as racist as it gets. Thank you very much, white eyes. While I can no longer braid my hair to wear in the red wrap of the warrior that I earned in battle, not just in Vietnam, but at Wounded Knee II, I am still the same person. Those people, no matter where from or what race are standing tall to protect not only First American land but the very earth itself. That land was stolen from the Lakota. They've more courage than I, I'm not into getting the crap beat out of me, I fight back. I have friends there now and they are smartly quiet. Hopefully the warriors are somewhere back in the hills because they are going to be needed as the militarized police violence gets worse and worse. Spraying water on people at 23 degrees is tantamount to torture. Those people are not just street punks, they are serious in what they are trying to do. Obama can stop this at anytime, but as usual doesn't do a damn thing to protect the people. The owners of the pipeline are nothing but scum of the earth, the new fascist in chief to be is one of them.

 

The only way those people will not last the winter, is by brute force and extreme violence, wait for it.

 

BTW, I did a lot of survey work around existing pipelines and survey/elevation checks as we dug around them, they are old and they leak, not all, not always great, unless broken, but they do leak. Sometimes they go boom!

[ClutchClark]

I used the expression, "Noble Savages", in an earlier post because the attitude of the do-gooder reminded me exactly of that very wrong attitude. He held the Native American to some ideal of purity when all he was actually describing was abject poverty.

 

I found the attitude far more disturbing than an expression. 

 

Apologies if it was offensive. FWIW, I find it racist to say, "Make America White Again", but its a free country. 

[sgtsabai]

Having grown up in the south, basically rural, I thought I had seen poverty. My stay on the Pine Ridge res quickly convinced me otherwise. Nothing noble about poverty. There are no jobs and regardless of what people think, those people do not want what has happened to them, nor do they accept the "white" way of life. That should not cause poverty. It was their land, their life that the US took away and they do not want the white way of life. Nobody, no government has the right to force them. One of my best friends was Jicarilla Apache, a Game & Fish officer on the Jicarilla res in northern New Mexico. One officer to another I used to ride with him to collect game for those that were no longer able to do so themselves. They didn't want a cow, they wanted what was traditional. One must understand, they do not in many, if not most cases want to adapt to the white man's life. I once was privileged to enter a very old "medicine man's" house on the res. You would not call it that. He lived alone, out in the mountains and he somehow knew me. Did not speak English but spoke Spanish. He was descended from a line of traditional chief's. He took me into his medicine room. Most of you will not understand the significance. When I left I noticed by his front door, AIM in faded red. Hoka Hey!

 

A bit of reading material for those that are actually interested in Standing Rock:  

http://www.truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentary/why-i-m-going-to-standing-rock-for-thanksgiving

 

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/38471-police-unleash-water-cannons-concussion-grenades-and-rubber-bullets-in-standing-rock

 

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/38466-don-t-be-passive-observers-of-last-night-s-terrorization-in-standing-rock-here-s-what-you-can-do

 

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/38399-terra-nullius-and-the-history-of-broken-treaties-at-standing-rock

 

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/38460-jeremy-scahill-tigerswan-security-linked-to-blackwater-now-coordinates-intel-for-dakota-access

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, sgtsabai said:

Oh wait, "nobel savages", that is about as racist as it gets. Thank you very much, white eyes. While I can no longer braid my hair to wear in the red wrap of the warrior that I earned in battle, not just in Vietnam, but at Wounded Knee II, I am still the same person. Those people, no matter where from or what race are standing tall to protect not only First American land but the very earth itself. That land was stolen from the Lakota. They've more courage than I, I'm not into getting the crap beat out of me, I fight back. I have friends there now and they are smartly quiet. Hopefully the warriors are somewhere back in the hills because they are going to be needed as the militarized police violence gets worse and worse. Spraying water on people at 23 degrees is tantamount to torture. Those people are not just street punks, they are serious in what they are trying to do. Obama can stop this at anytime, but as usual doesn't do a damn thing to protect the people. The owners of the pipeline are nothing but scum of the earth, the new fascist in chief to be is one of them.

 

The only way those people will not last the winter, is by brute force and extreme violence, wait for it.

 

BTW, I did a lot of survey work around existing pipelines and survey/elevation checks as we dug around them, they are old and they leak, not all, not always great, unless broken, but they do leak. Sometimes they go boom!

Finally, you wrote something I agree with.

[sgtsabai]

Well I'll be damned, oh wait probably already are...lol.Thanks.

 

Oh, confession, I was once a welder helper for the pipeline local 798 just after returning from VN. Helped pay my way through college.

[ClutchClark]

46 minutes ago, sgtsabai said:

Having grown up in the south, basically rural, I thought I had seen poverty. My stay on the Pine Ridge res quickly convinced me otherwise. Nothing noble about poverty. There are no jobs and regardless of what people think, those people do not want what has happened to them, nor do they accept the "white" way of life. That should not cause poverty. It was their land, their life that the US took away and they do not want the white way of life. Nobody, no government has the right to force them. One of my best friends was Jicarilla Apache, a Game & Fish officer on the Jicarilla res in northern New Mexico. One officer to another I used to ride with him to collect game for those that were no longer able to do so themselves. They didn't want a cow, they wanted what was traditional. One must understand, they do not in many, if not most cases want to adapt to the white man's life. I once was privileged to enter a very old "medicine man's" house on the res. You would not call it that. He lived alone, out in the mountains and he somehow knew me. Did not speak English but spoke Spanish. He was descended from a line of traditional chief's. He took me into his medicine room. Most of you will not understand the significance. When I left I noticed by his front door, AIM in faded red. Hoka Hey!

 

A bit of reading material for those that are actually interested in Standing Rock:  

http://www.truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentary/why-i-m-going-to-standing-rock-for-thanksgiving

 

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/38471-police-unleash-water-cannons-concussion-grenades-and-rubber-bullets-in-standing-rock

 

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/38466-don-t-be-passive-observers-of-last-night-s-terrorization-in-standing-rock-here-s-what-you-can-do

 

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/38399-terra-nullius-and-the-history-of-broken-treaties-at-standing-rock

 

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/38460-jeremy-scahill-tigerswan-security-linked-to-blackwater-now-coordinates-intel-for-dakota-access

 

I know they don't want the white way of life.

 

But don't you see that what you call the white way of life is just modern life? 

 

If a person chooses to not participate in modern life then they are going to be stuck in poverty. 

 

This is the broken paradigm. 

 

Are well intentioned people really doing the Native communities with this collective mindset they don't want to live the life of the whiteman really doing them any favors by encouraging that paradigm when the only outcome it can bring is hardship? 

 

Why not hold your friend the Jicarilla Apache from Game & Fish up as an example of how they can participate in the modern world while not becoming immersed in it? Then they can work their way out of poverty and help their community as he did bringing fresh game. 

 

Personally I think the gov't welfare system does more harm than good for the people on the Rez. Its just enough to let them barely exist. It might be better if it were just cut off because then it would  force these people to finally adapt to modern times and they could start having a higher wuality of life than abject poverty allows. 

 

The current paradigm is completely broken. The victim paradigm is what keeps their spirit broken. they pass it down from one generation to the next. 

 

 

[sgtsabai]

My friend from the Jicarilla is long dead. A victim of a gunshot wound. He was doing what he did for the way of life they all wanted, not to better himself. BTW, he was one hell of a Golden Gloves boxer in his younger days. The Jicarilla have oil and natural gas, not fracked and are fairly well off but there are no jobs to speak off. The spirit is not broken, it will never be broken. The reason they live in poverty on many reservations is there is nothing available for the majority of people, not welfare which they get little of and frankly welfare has never raised anyone out of poverty although it, along with attorneys and friends helped me. I wasn't raised on the res, never knew I was part Creek/Choctaw until I was in my 40's but the spirit was always there. I don't know how to explain to you, but you do not understand. It is not being the victim, it is not being free. And freedom means something different to white folks than it does to Indians. It is not monetary wealth they desire, it is the desire to be free and under the system that has been in place, the genocide enacted against them by our ancestors, they are not free. No, the buffalo will not come back, no they will not be free to roam the plains as they once were, we know that, but that does not take away their one and only desire, freedom. That along with the restoration of their lands.

[Scott]

Continued posting of misinformation about the Native American Tribe involved in this dispute will earn suspensions.  

 

Stay on topic, please.   

[ClutchClark]

3 hours ago, sgtsabai said:

My friend from the Jicarilla is long dead. A victim of a gunshot wound. He was doing what he did for the way of life they all wanted, not to better himself. BTW, he was one hell of a Golden Gloves boxer in his younger days. The Jicarilla have oil and natural gas, not fracked and are fairly well off but there are no jobs to speak off. The spirit is not broken, it will never be broken. The reason they live in poverty on many reservations is there is nothing available for the majority of people, not welfare which they get little of and frankly welfare has never raised anyone out of poverty although it, along with attorneys and friends helped me. I wasn't raised on the res, never knew I was part Creek/Choctaw until I was in my 40's but the spirit was always there. I don't know how to explain to you, but you do not understand. It is not being the victim, it is not being free. And freedom means something different to white folks than it does to Indians. It is not monetary wealth they desire, it is the desire to be free and under the system that has been in place, the genocide enacted against them by our ancestors, they are not free. No, the buffalo will not come back, no they will not be free to roam the plains as they once were, we know that, but that does not take away their one and only desire, freedom. That along with the restoration of their lands.

 

A simple drive through a Rez is sufficient to prove the current paradigm does not work. Your talk about whites not understanding is simple racism. 

 

You are incorrect that the US as we now know it is somehow the world that whites want. First off, lets be clear that you use the expression "whites" to mean anyone that is not "red". So its already an incorrect label because it is the world of European, African, Asian, Latino, etc...

 

That is why the correct non-racist name is "Modern" US culture. That culture is a series of compromises between attitudes from one coast to the other and no one sits back and says this is the culture I want.  

 

the only people who come close to saying that are tye extremely wealthy. 

And this is my point, the current paradigm of the Native American is broken because it means they are non-particpants. Non-participation means they never even enter the process. When someone chooses non-participation then they remain financially poor. Poor people do not get the life they want. Rich people get the life they want. If someone wants to play the life of an indian they have a much better chance of that if they are rich. 

 

If for no other reason, because politics only pays attention to money or power. The hispanics see this. The blacks see this. Politicians do not pay attention to Native Americans because there is no benefit to them. 

 

Anyway, the native Americans "spirit" may or may not be broken. It might have been a poor choice of words on my part because it evokes a pride on your part that refuses to allow you to admit defeat. But whatever someone wants to call it, the suicide rate amongst this population and particularly the youth shows that there is definitely a BIG absence of HOPE. 

 

I am sorry to have offended you but you have now rallied to protect and defend the very paradigm which is failing. 

 

Its the Modern world. I would prefer it was not just like you. I find your post to contain much racist influence. But its a free country. 

Meanwhile the pipeline is almost complete and it will be completed so all of this effort is a waste of money that could have applied towards something positive and winnable. It was another battle the Native Americans lost because it was not a well chosen battle. It was dogma rather than strategy. It was old paradigm.

 

I am sorry.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, ClutchClark said:

 

 

Its the Modern world. I would prefer it was not just like you. I find your post to contain much racist influence. But its a free country. 

Meanwhile the pipeline is almost complete and it will be completed so all of this effort is a waste of money that could have applied towards something positive and winnable. It was another battle the Native Americans lost because it was not a well chosen battle. It was dogma rather than strategy. It was old paradigm.

 

I am sorry.

Edited for brevity.

 

They probably lost this one, but the experience will educate them for the next battle and they will get better at it.

 

I hope your posts lauding the "modern" life is not advocating the great evils of modern life- consumerism and planned obsolescence.

There are ways of living that do not require giving in to the rat race. They do require education and willingness to live together as a community though. Also lots of compromise.

Edited November 24, 2016 by thaibeachlovers

[sgtsabai]

I'd like to comment on freedom. When I was at Wounded Knee II it was the first time I ever felt on the right side, and even though I really wasn't free, I felt free. I had tremendous responsibility to protect the people and would have given my life to do so, knowing for once it was a good cause. The defense was manned by Vietnam Veterans, this was no rag tag bunch. Our head honcho was a USMC Vietnam Cpl. There were cross border ops people that had worked out of NPK into Lao, Tiger Force, grunts, communication people, one slipped in to give a class on how to take out the APC's. Military Intelligence, yea I know an oxymoron, from the Marine Corps, my old battalion armorer from Camp Pendleton, Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force. We accepted the responsibility freely, the opportunity to die in defense of the people and for a time we were free. A freedom most will never come close to understanding. Those at Standing Rock are doing the same, without the means to defend themselves, not my cup of tea. Vets are there, more are on the way. Iraq/Afghanistan Vets. They may not take likely to getting shot, sprayed with freezing water and getting the crap beat out of them.  

 

Many here are already defeated in their lives, they just refuse to admit it.

 

I've always held to the belief that it is better to die on one's feet than live on the knees.

[Credo]

Quote

I had tremendous responsibility to protect the people and would have given my life to do so,

I had a brother-in-law who worked for the BIA police.   He felt the same way.   

 

This particular pipeline is traversing some rather remote territory and should there be a problem, it might take some real effort to stop it and repair it.