Greencard vs. US citizenship

[hoosierhiver]

Hi,

  I have a 17 year old Thai son who has been living and going to school in the States for 5 years. He has  permanent resident alien statis. I'm wondering what, if any, advantages or disadvantages there are for him to become a US citizen.  Would this interfere with his Thai citizenship?,  Does a greencard limit scholarship options for college?,  Anything else I should consider?  No speculation please, just facts. Thanks, Mike

[mania]

Does not interfere with his Thai citizenship at all

 

Advantages? Well for my wife it has been the freedom to travel anywhere in the world

mostly visa on arrival as US citizens are allowed

 

Then of course SS etc but disadvantage wise I guess you may call taxes that

But for most it is not much vs income & when he lives out of country a large exemption is afforded etc.

 

After 3 years in the US he can go ahead & take the test for citizenship if he wants...

I think it is a benefit & wish we as foreigners had the same afforded to us in Thailand

 

Dual citizenship is a nice thing to have IMHO

 

Edited December 2, 2016 by mania

[keeniau96]

Citizenship is definitely an advantage. Worldwide travel far simpler, instant recognition by government agencies, useful for employment, financial credit ratings and scholarships better for citizens. No real difference in taxes, liability same for all. 

 

 

[skatewash]

5 hours ago, keeniau96 said:

Citizenship is definitely an advantage. Worldwide travel far simpler, instant recognition by government agencies, useful for employment, financial credit ratings and scholarships better for citizens. No real difference in taxes, liability same for all. 

 

 

 

Really?  The US has citizenship-based taxation rather than residence-based taxation.  The only country in the world to do so (except for Eritrea, which is a complicated situation).  Therefore, if he obtains and keeps US citizenship or keeps his Green Card status he will be liable for filing and paying US taxes for the rest of his life, not just when he is residing in the US.  As a US citizen he will also be responsible under FATCA for annually reporting any financial accounts located outside the US to the US government (under very Draconian penalties for failing to do so).  A Green Card holder who is a tax resident of a country outside the US would not necessarily have to report these accounts.  Finally, should he wish to do so, it is becoming more difficult to renounce US citizenship, more difficult than simply to give up Green Card status.  So there are some negative consequences of being a US citizen or green card holder.  Whether they would negatively affect the OP's son depends on what he wants or plans to do.

 

[ubonjoe]

49 minutes ago, skatewash said:

 

Really?  The US has citizenship-based taxation rather than residence-based taxation.  The only country in the world to do so (except for Eritrea, which is a complicated situation).  Therefore, if he obtains and keeps US citizenship or keeps his Green Card status he will be liable for filing and paying US taxes for the rest of his life, not just when he is residing in the US.  As a US citizen he will also be responsible under FATCA for annually reporting any financial accounts located outside the US to the US government (under very Draconian penalties for failing to do so).  A Green Card holder who is a tax resident of a country outside the US would not necessarily have to report these accounts.  Finally, should he wish to do so, it is becoming more difficult to renounce US citizenship, more difficult than simply to give up Green Card status.  So there are some negative consequences of being a US citizen or green card holder.  Whether they would negatively affect the OP's son depends on what he wants or plans to do.

 

Unless he gave up permanent residence he would be liable for taxes the same as a US citizen is.

Same for social security taxes and etc.

Since he is a Thai citizen he could open bank accounts here as a Thai without a problem and likely never be caught out for not reporting them.

[chiang mai]

Unless he spends time in the US each year he runs the risk of being seen to abandon his Green Card and as a non-US resident he will receive any future Social Security benefits only after tax has been deducted at 24.5% - participation in another country's social security system will see his SSc benefits reduced even further. The alternative of course is to become a citizen and file tax returns on worldwide earnings.

[skatewash]

57 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Unless he gave up permanent residence he would be liable for taxes the same as a US citizen is.

Same for social security taxes and etc.

Since he is a Thai citizen he could open bank accounts here as a Thai without a problem and likely never be caught out for not reporting them.

 

I generally agree with your first two points, although if you were a US green card holder and establish tax residence in Canada (and maybe other countries depending on whether similar treaties exist) you may not be required to file FATCA forms, while if you were a similarly situated US citizen you still would (http://www.citizenshipsolutions.ca/2016/04/03/are-green-card-holders-resident-in-canada-us-persons-under-the-fatca-iga/).

I would advise a dual Thai-US citizen to comply with the FATCA and FBAR provisions of US tax law as there is no exception for Thais who have or open accounts in Thailand allowing them not to report those to the US government if they meet the filing thresholds:  https://www.irs.gov/businesses/comparison-of-form-8938-and-fbar-requirements.  The penalties for not doing so are very severe, example for not filing the FBAR annually (if filing thresholds are met): " If non-willful, up to $10,000; if willful, up to the greater of $100,000 or 50 percent of account balances; criminal penalties may also apply."

I don't know whether Thai banks exercising due diligence with respect to these FATCA/FBAR laws ask Thai citizens to sign forms from the US government when opening new accounts, but certainly it is the case that non-Thai (both American and otherwise) customers are routinely asked to state whether they are US citizens or not.  Recently on Thai Visa (although I can't find it again to link to it unfortunately) there was a case of a non-American citizen opening a Thai bank account who was asked to fill in such forms.  I guess it's up to the individual bank to decide exactly how to handle their due diligence responsibility under the FATCA/FBAR laws but I would expect that most take it very seriously.  So maybe a Thai-US citizen could get away with opening a new account in Thailand without disclosing that they were also a US citizen, but if it were me I wouldn't want to take the chance, especially given the severity of the penalties.

Edited December 3, 2016 by skatewash
Added the specific reference to Canada in the first paragraph.

[mania]

10 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Unless he spends time in the US each year he runs the risk of being seen to abandon his Green Card

 

The abandonment of green card status rule is only during the first 2year card

Which is why that card is called the Temporary Residence

 

But after the 2 year card he gets a 10 year card called the permanent residence

& that card does not have that rule afaik

[mania]

10 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Unless he gave up permanent residence he would be liable for taxes the same as a US citizen is.

Same for social security taxes and etc.

Since he is a Thai citizen he could open bank accounts here as a Thai without a problem and likely never be caught out for not reporting them.

 

That is true Ubon

As a Thai opening an account is not subject to all the paperwork required to open a

bank account as a US citizen in Thailand is

 

Also on the taxation unless your making really big bucks it is not so bad as a

US citizen living abroad gets the first $101,300 of foreign earned income exclusion from US taxation

http://www.efile.com/foreign-earned-income-and-income-exclusion/

Edited December 3, 2016 by mania

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Mania

 

FYI, a 10-year Green Card holder can still have the green card cancelled by U.S. Immigration if it is  determined that the holder really does not live in the U.S.  

 

The more official name is a PRA, a Permanent Resident Alien, meaning living in the U.S.  There's lots of Thai nationals with green cards living in Thailand, and just wanting to visit the U.S. once a year.  They're often surprised when the U.S. IO tells them on arrival, last trip, green card cancelled.

 

It happens.

 

Mac

[chiang mai]

2 hours ago, mania said:

 

The abandonment of green card status rule is only during the first 2year card

Which is why that card is called the Temporary Residence

 

But after the 2 year card he gets a 10 year card called the permanent residence

& that card does not have that rule afaik

 

Not so, it's also a residence based card.

[rijb]

47 minutes ago, Thanyaburi Mac said:

Mania

 

FYI, a 10-year Green Card holder can still have the green card cancelled by U.S. Immigration if it is  determined that the holder really does not live in the U.S.  

 

The more official name is a PRA, a Permanent Resident Alien, meaning living in the U.S.  There's lots of Thai nationals with green cards living in Thailand, and just wanting to visit the U.S. once a year.  They're often surprised when the U.S. IO tells them on arrival, last trip, green card cancelled.

 

It happens.

 

Mac

 

I have a sister-in-law who worked in Immigration.  She talked about how some of her co-workers loved to pull green cards from people that couldn't prove they lived in the U.S., full time.

 

My wife had a green card for many years.  She never had a reason to get her U.S. citizenship (and US passport), until we moved to Thailand. 

[bubba]

It is true that US immigration can pull a green card if the holder has remained outside the US for a long period of time. The solution is to obtain a re-entry document, which will preserve residency for the validity of the document, which I believe is for one year. This can only be applied for while the permanent resident is inside the USA and would have to be renewed every year.

 

I know of a Thai who had their US green card pulled, and the next time they wanted to visit the USA, they were given a visitor's visa valid for ten years, but I am not sure what length of stay in granted on arrival. 

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Bubba

 

The U.S. Re-Entry Permit is good for two (2) years.

 

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/B5en.pdf

 

Mac

[craigt3365]

18 hours ago, skatewash said:

 

Really?  The US has citizenship-based taxation rather than residence-based taxation.  The only country in the world to do so (except for Eritrea, which is a complicated situation).  Therefore, if he obtains and keeps US citizenship or keeps his Green Card status he will be liable for filing and paying US taxes for the rest of his life, not just when he is residing in the US.  As a US citizen he will also be responsible under FATCA for annually reporting any financial accounts located outside the US to the US government (under very Draconian penalties for failing to do so).  A Green Card holder who is a tax resident of a country outside the US would not necessarily have to report these accounts.  Finally, should he wish to do so, it is becoming more difficult to renounce US citizenship, more difficult than simply to give up Green Card status.  So there are some negative consequences of being a US citizen or green card holder.  Whether they would negatively affect the OP's son depends on what he wants or plans to do.

 

You don't have to pay some 90k USD of earned income while outside the US.  FACTA is a very easy process.  IMHO, the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages.

 

More and more countries are implementing draconian tax laws.  Some even tax you if you own property here.  The US doesn't do that.  Yet...LOL

[snowbak]

benefit if he comes back to work in Thailand he can be hired as an expat instead of a local hire. and can travel the world as a US citizen which makes things much easier. He will keep his Thai citizenship so the best of two worlds

[Dustdevil]

Yes, up to about $96,000 is nontaxable overseas--you just have to file every year.

[Mansell]

Besides yanking your Green Card they will refuse entry into the U.S. After visiting Thailand a few years ago IO assumed I lived there and took me aside in Vancouver and questioned me at length....only when they were satisfied I really lived in the U.S. And had a job etc would they let me back in. The other point about a Green Card is they won't pay your SS if you live in another country, it seems you must reside in the U.S. Personally it has more benefits becoming a citizen, than not......plus I now have dual UK/USA.

[Mr0Yallow]

On 12/3/2016 at 2:53 AM, mania said:

Does not interfere with his Thai citizenship at all

 

Advantages? Well for my wife it has been the freedom to travel anywhere in the world

mostly visa on arrival as US citizens are allowed

 

Then of course SS etc but disadvantage wise I guess you may call taxes that

But for most it is not much vs income & when he lives out of country a large exemption is afforded etc.

 

After 3 years in the US he can go ahead & take the test for citizenship if he wants...

I think it is a benefit & wish we as foreigners had the same afforded to us in Thailand

 

Dual citizenship is a nice thing to have IMHO

 

I am a resident of California. I have had 2 wives, (now divorced from both) First was Korean, married in ROK second was Thai she was in US on student visa but could not afford school anymore as there was no financial aid offered until she gained her permanent resident status, (ie green card).  I vaguely recall that after obtaining US citizenship if a person accepted foreign citizenship the US citizenship could be revoked, but I am not sure of the current validity of that statement.

I agree with your statement of advantages, I understand some countries will not issue an entry visa on asean passports, (mainly USA) but I know from experience Vietnam requires US citizens to obtain a visa prior to arriving in the country,

I am guessing SS = Social Security, I know that social security benefits cannot be received by anyone unless there have been payments made into the fund.. SSI is NOT social security it is a federal welfare program started under the Nixon administration. I understand that it is administered by Social Security Offices to minimize manpower

[bubba]

4 hours ago, Thanyaburi Mac said:

Bubba

 

The U.S. Re-Entry Permit is good for two (2) years.

 

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/B5en.pdf

 

Mac

 

 

That is for the first several years. After that, they start issuing one year re-entry permits.

 

"

Generally, a Re Entry Permit issued to a permanent resident is valid for two years from the date of issuance. However, if you have been outside the United States for more than four of the last five years since becoming a permanent resident the permit will be limited to one year, except that a permit with a validity of two years may be issued to the following:

 

Reentry Permit Validity – 1-Year vs. 2-Year Terms

While the reentry permit may be renewed for a number of times, without limit, there are certain limits on the terms of renewal reentry permits.  For most reentry permit holders, their first, second and perhaps even third reentry permits will be valid for two years.   However, subsequent reentry permits may be valid for one year only.  The government has put in place regulations which restrict the validity of a reentry permit depending on how much time the applicant green card holder has spent outside of the US.  The effect of these regulations are to make it harder (and more expensive) for green card holders to remain outside of the US for more than a few years.

Here are the rules. If a green card holder has spent more than four years total outside of the US since becoming a green card holder (or during the last five years, whichever is less), then the reentry permit will be issued with 1-year validity term.  Otherwise, for folks who have spent outside of the US less than four years, the reentry permit validity term will be the default of two years.

There are some very limited exceptions.  If the green card holder is employed by public international organization of which the U.S. is a member or is a professional athlete, then the reentry permit may be issued for two (2) years despite extended periods of absence from the US.

 

http://www.i131reentrypermit.com/2014/09/overview-of-reentry-permit-extensions-and-validity-terms/

Edited December 4, 2016 by bubba

[mania]

6 hours ago, chiang mai said:

 

Not so, it's also a residence based card.

 

Yes of course...but it is called Temporary Residence

 

After that 2 year card expires you apply for a 10 year Permanent Residence card

 

 

[mania]

7 hours ago, Thanyaburi Mac said:

Mania

 

FYI, a 10-year Green Card holder can still have the green card cancelled by U.S. Immigration if it is  determined that the holder really does not live in the U.S.  

 

The more official name is a PRA, a Permanent Resident Alien, meaning living in the U.S.  There's lots of Thai nationals with green cards living in Thailand, and just wanting to visit the U.S. once a year.  They're often surprised when the U.S. IO tells them on arrival, last trip, green card cancelled.

 

It happens.

 

Mac

 

I had heard that too Mac

So if someone plans to be out more than 6 months & they are on a green card...

there is a form they can file to protect themselves from being considered to have abandoned that green card

Called I-131 Re-entry

 

 

We never dealt with it as back in 2010 or so my wife just went ahead with her US citizenship instead when she was

1 year into her 10 year green card

 

Edit: Ooops reading further down the topic I see you folks already mentioned this ...

 

Edited December 4, 2016 by mania

[radiochaser]

8 hours ago, Thanyaburi Mac said:

Mania

 

FYI, a 10-year Green Card holder can still have the green card cancelled by U.S. Immigration if it is  determined that the holder really does not live in the U.S.  

 

The more official name is a PRA, a Permanent Resident Alien, meaning living in the U.S.  There's lots of Thai nationals with green cards living in Thailand, and just wanting to visit the U.S. once a year.  They're often surprised when the U.S. IO tells them on arrival, last trip, green card cancelled.

 

It happens.

 

Mac

I returned to the United States from Thailand about 45-49 days ago.  

At immigration check point, a green card holder was questioned about his long stay outside of the United States.  He was told he could lose his green card status by staying outside the United States so long.  He was questioned for several minutes about his stay, why he was gone, etc.  

He was outside the United States for only 7 months.  

Unless there has been a change,  a green card holder cannot receive Social Security payments outside of the United States.  No matter how long you have worked and payed into the system.  You will only be eligible to draw them inside the United States.  

[chiang mai]

2 hours ago, mania said:

 

Yes of course...but it is called Temporary Residence

 

After that 2 year card expires you apply for a 10 year Permanent Residence card

 

 

 

Yes but even ten year Permanent resident green cards get revoked after one year of not being in the US. I got my green card back in the early 1970's long before the present system was established, it was a permanent residency card from day one but was determined to have been abandoned after three years because I had not visited in the three years and didn't file tax returns for the same period, this was in the mid 1990's.

[partington]

1 hour ago, radiochaser said:

Unless there has been a change,  a green card holder cannot receive Social Security payments outside of the United States.  No matter how long you have worked and payed into the system.  You will only be eligible to draw them inside the United States.  

 

 

Not true at all for citizens of  many countries,  including  nearly all of Europe. This is not a change: the agreements referred to have been in operation for many decades. See  http://www.fool.com/retirement/general/2015/03/08/social-security-5-surprising-facts-about-noncitize.aspx

(from which the quote below is taken) and consult the SSA website for a full list of countries to which this applies.

 

"Moreover, the U.S. has international agreements with a number of countries under which noncitizens can keep getting Social Security even if they live abroad permanently. Most of the countries covered under those provisions are in Europe, but others include Australia, Canada, Japan, Chile, and South Korea. For more information on particular countries, take a look at this SSA website for specifics."

 

 

 

EDIT: added list of countries whose citizens will get social security payments from the US permanently if living in those countries:

 

Austria Belgium Canada Finland France Germany

Greece Ireland Israel Italy Japan Luxembourg Netherlands

Norway Portugal Spain Sweden Switzerland United Kingdom

Australia Belgium  Chile Czech Republic Denmark 

Korea (South) Norway Poland

Albania Antigua and Barbuda Argentina Bahamas Barbados Belize Bolivia Brazil Burkina Faso Chile Colombia Costa Rica Croatia Cyprus Dominica Dominican Republic

Ecuador El Salvador Gabon Grenada Guatemala Guyana Iceland Ivory Coast Jamaica Jordan Korea, Rep. of Latvia Liechtenstein Macedonia Former Yugoslav Rep. of Malta Marshall Islands Mexico Micronesia

Monaco Nicaragua Palau Panama Peru Philippines Poland St. Christoper and Nevis Saint Lucia San Marino Serbia-Montenegro Slovak Republic Slovenia Trinidad-Tobago Turkey Uruguay Venezuela Western Samoa

 

Edited December 4, 2016 by partington

[mania]

9 hours ago, radiochaser said:

I returned to the United States from Thailand about 45-49 days ago.  

At immigration check point, a green card holder was questioned about his long stay outside of the United States.  He was told he could lose his green card status by staying outside the United States so long.  He was questioned for several minutes about his stay, why he was gone, etc.  

He was outside the United States for only 7 months. 

 

Hey we are leading similar lives

 

We just moved back after near 5 years in Thailand too

Glad my wife did become a citizen back when

 

Yes as I said also if one is planning to stay out of the US for more than 6 months they should get a I130 before leaving

 

On the one you saw getting questioned....My bet is they let them return

but let them know how it goes

 

US is strict but fair

 

 

Edited December 4, 2016 by mania

[radiochaser]

5 hours ago, mania said:

 

Hey we are leading similar lives

 

We just moved back after near 5 years in Thailand too

Glad my wife did become a citizen back when

 

Yes as I said also if one is planning to stay out of the US for more than 6 months they should get a I130 before leaving

 

On the one you saw getting questioned....My bet is they let them return

but let them know how it goes

 

US is strict but fair

 

 

Yes, the man was allowed to return to the United States.  

And then it was my turn to talk to the "man" (immigration officer)!

 

 

[IMA_FARANG]

U.S. citizenship has th advantage of travel on a U.S. passport throughout the world.

A Greencatd is for non citizens RESIDING in the U.S.

It does llow you as a non citizen to leave the U.S. on the Greencard fo a  period of time but return on the Greencard.

But for those wanting a long term stay in the U.S. it is far better to get U.S. citizenship assuming your original country will allow dual U.S. nationality with your birth country.

A Greencard CAN be canxelled or revoked for those who use it to live in another country and do not renew it on time.

A Greencard is for those non U.S. citizens who reside in the U.S. for a reletively short period and are NOT residing there permanently.

 

 

[bubba]

No, a "green card" is by definition permanent residency and not intended for those who want to reside in the US for a short time. There are many people who for one reason or another elect not to get US citizenship and they continue to live/work in the USA for their entire lives. 

 

I know of two cases (one Australian and one Japanese) with green cards due to marriage to a US citizen. Both had a problem with swearing allegiance to the USA in order to get their citizenship, so they elected to remain on green cards.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Time Traveller said:

I really can't believe a moderator would give a suggestion about breaking law. Seriously?

 

I don't see that as breaking the law, the person would be a Thai citizen hence legally entitled. What else he may or may not be is irrelevant.