Uber patrons in Chiang Mai

[lkn]

1 hour ago, Diplomatico said:

Methinks you know little or nothing about Uber or the people who drive for Uber.  

 

My response was to people talking about tuk-tuk and taxi drivers.

 

1 hour ago, Bill97 said:

You do not know what real slavery is nor do you know about sea creatures but are correct about need for education as you aptly demonstrate.

 

This could be true, but insults are not arguments, so you are not refuting anything I wrote.

 

As for not knowing what real slavery is, of course I do, and there are instances of people being treated as property in the Thai fishing industry, which is really no different than how slavery worked in the west, but my use of the word here was meant to describe the modern day analogue.

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by lkn

[Mousehound]

I have never had a problem with Songtaus and their charges.  Tuk tuks on the other hand can be a problem.  Wanted 300Bht fro Riverside to Tapae Gate. Uber would be a good option.

[CaptHaddock]

As a passenger Uber is a boon for me here in BKK.  The drivers are middle class people who own their car, unlike taxi drivers, are fully identified, and so more likely to be responsible.  Also, I am more likely to enjoy a conversation with them.  The ones I have asked seem enthusiastic about Uber.  But I don't think it is as good a deal for the drivers as they believe.  All those I have spoken with fail to consider the return on the substantial investment in the car itself, apart from oil and gas costs.  Of course, none of them bought the car in order to become an Uber driver; they had the car already.  But they ignore depreciation, which is very real, if abstract. 

 

In New York City the Uber drivers attempted to organize themselves to resist fare reductions.  In the long run organizing a union is the only way for them to get a fair share of the revenue.  Don't know if that will happen in Thailand though.

[SaintLouisBlues]

1 minute ago, CaptHaddock said:

Of course, none of them bought the car in order to become an Uber driver; they had the car already.  But they ignore depreciation, which is very real, if abstract.

Does the car depreciate faster if it's used as an Uber vehicle?

Edited January 4, 2017 by SaintLouisBlues

[CaptHaddock]

Just now, SaintLouisBlues said:

Does the car depreciate faster if it's used as an Uber vehicle?

 

Sure does.  It's called wear and tear.

[SaintLouisBlues]

1 minute ago, CaptHaddock said:

Sure does.  It's called wear and tear.

Do you have any data on the incremental depreciation of driving a vehicle for Uber vs. driving that same vehicle for purely personal reasons?

[bubba]

3 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Does the car depreciate faster if it's used as an Uber vehicle?

 

 

Of course it does...more KMs depreciate the car and then there are all the maintenance costs that will occur more frequently. 

[bubba]

Just now, SaintLouisBlues said:

Do you have any data on the incremental depreciation of driving a vehicle for Uber vs. driving that same vehicle for purely personal reasons?

 

Well, let's compare:

 

A car driven only to and from work and some shopping trips clocking up 2000 km/month

 

A car driven every day, right hours a day for Uber, clocking up, say 15,000 km/month 

 

Which one do you think will be worth less at the end of the year and which one do you think you would spend more for maintenance costs, cleaning, etc.?

[CaptHaddock]

7 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Do you have any data on the incremental depreciation of driving a vehicle for Uber vs. driving that same vehicle for purely personal reasons?

 

No, but the US IRS does.  They allow a deduction for using a car for business purposes of 56 cents/mile or about 14 baht/kilometer.  I understand that cars in Thailand are not cheaper than in the US.  So, that may be a reasonable cost estimate here, too.  Once you deduct that from the Uber driver's take they aren't making much.  Basically, they are working mostly to extract equity from the car itself.

 

But they don't understand that.

Edited January 4, 2017 by CaptHaddock

[SaintLouisBlues]

Just now, bubba said:

 

Well, let's compare:

 

A car driven only to and from work and some shopping trips clocking up 2000 km/month

 

A car driven every day, right hours a day for Uber, clocking up, say 15,000 km/month 

 

Which one do you think will be worth less at the end of the year and which one do you think you would spend more for maintenance costs, cleaning, etc.?

The last part of your final sentence is irrelevant to my question since I asked solely about depreciation. Do most Uber drivers in your area drive for eight hours a day, every day of the month? I've never yet met an Uber driver in any of the half-dozen or so cities where I've used it who drives anything like that 

[bubba]

Just now, SaintLouisBlues said:

The last part of your final sentence is irrelevant to my question since I asked solely about depreciation. Do most Uber drivers in your area drive for eight hours a day, every day of the month? I've never yet met an Uber driver in any of the half-dozen or so cities where I've used it who drives anything like that 

 

OK, so forget the final part regarding maintenance costs, although that must be figured in to driver cost.

 

Let's say you are looking at two second-hand Honda City cars. One has 200,000 kms on the clock and one has 100,000 kms. Which one is worth less?

 

Regardless of how many hours spent driving, are you actually saying that putting kms on a car by driving for Uber does not result in accelerated depreciation?

[SaintLouisBlues]

Just now, bubba said:

Regardless of how many hours spent driving, are you actually saying that putting kms on a car by driving for Uber does not result in accelerated depreciation?

I doubt it adds much to the depreciation as I doubt that the number of kms is significant. I'm only interested in the incremental depreciation cost of the one over the other

[SaintLouisBlues]

12 minutes ago, CaptHaddock said:

No, but the US IRS does.  They allow a deduction for using a car for business purposes of 56 cents/mile or about 14 baht/kilometer. 

That's the gas allowance as well, right?

[CaptHaddock]

1 minute ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

That's the gas allowance as well, right?

 

Yes.  All-in costs.

[bubba]

3 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

I doubt it adds much to the depreciation as I doubt that the number of kms is significant. I'm only interested in the incremental depreciation cost of the one over the other

 

 

Just now, SaintLouisBlues said:

That's the gas allowance as well, right?

 

 

No, that is the total allowance for the standard mileage allowance. If you elect to itemise your business automobile expense, they allow US 0.24/mile. That is close to half the total allowance, so yes, most would consider that to be a significant incremental expense with each km one drives for Uber.

[SaintLouisBlues]

Just now, bubba said:

No, that is the total allowance for the standard mileage allowance. If you elect to itemise your business automobile expense, they allow US 0.24/mile. That is close to half the total allowance, so yes, most would consider that to be a significant incremental expense with each km one drives for Uber.

Same for an SUV and a Toyota Camry?

[CaptHaddock]

Just now, SaintLouisBlues said:

Same for an SUV and a Toyota Camry?

 

Yes, but US taxpayers have the option of tracking and deducting actual costs instead of the standard mileage rate.

[Konini]

2 hours ago, bubba said:

I honestly do not believe that learning the northern Thai word for "twenty" is going to convince a tuk tuk or songthaew driver to give you a competitive, local rate. 

But what you have described here is the complicated and often expensive procedure for getting sub-par personal transport in Chiang Mai. Spending time waving off seven drivers to save 20 baht before you get underway to where you want to go?  Little wonder that Uber is doing so well now. As you said "don't waste time trying to haggle with them".

 

 It never takes long, songtaews seem to pass every 20 to 30 seconds. I have all the time in the world so the waiting doesn't bother me. Same as being stuck in traffic; Mr K gets agitated and impatient, I take the attitude of there's nothing I can do about it so daydream until we start moving and try to get my husband to stop grumbling and mumbling.  We're stuck in traffic, nothing we can do, calm down and relax.

[CaptHaddock]

2 minutes ago, bubba said:

 

 

 

 

No, that is the total allowance for the standard mileage allowance. If you elect to itemise your business automobile expense, they allow US 0.24/mile. That is close to half the total allowance, so yes, most would consider that to be a significant incremental expense with each km one drives for Uber.

 

The standard mileage rate includes all costs: gas, oil, maintenance, depreciation, etc.

[SaintLouisBlues]

Just now, CaptHaddock said:

Yes, but US taxpayers have the option of tracking and deducting actual costs instead of the standard mileage rate.

My point is that quoting a single figure for a wide range of vehicles doesn't provide a lot of guidance about depreciation. IRS figures are based on lobbying from Detroit and will be over-stated rather than accurately stated

[CaptHaddock]

35 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

My point is that quoting a single figure for a wide range of vehicles doesn't provide a lot of guidance about depreciation. IRS figures are based on lobbying from Detroit and will be over-stated rather than accurately stated

 

None of the small businessmen who used their privates cars in the US whom I have known agree with that.  They all are convinced that the actual costs are higher.

 

But, for argument's sake, let's figure the local operating costs at a minimal 10 baht/per kilometer.  Are they making money?  My wife recently took an Uber ride for 34.49 kilometers at a total cost of ฿521.11.  If the driver's take is 75%, that works out to ฿390.83 or ฿11.32/km.  Less his overhead for the car and he's making 1 baht/kilometer.  As I said, he's working only to extract his own equity from the car itself.  Not a good deal.

 

It's actually a little better than this on the average.  I deliberately chose a longer ride than usual to minimize the effect of the flag drop, which affords the driver a somewhat higher rate per kilometer for the first kilometer.  So, since most rides are short, his average should be a little higher.  My wife's usual ride home is 3.81 kilometers.  The last time she took it the fare was ฿68.60.  So, on that occasion the driver's share was ฿13.5/kilometer or ฿3.50 after car overhead.

 

Not a good deal at all.  But the Thai drivers won't notice, because, as I have pointed out, they didn't buy the car to go into the Uber driving business, so they don't identify depreciation as a cost.  Also, ownership of a car is a claim to middle-class status which is more important to many Thais, than the economic benefit of driving for Uber.

 

I hope they do figure it out someday and organize themselves to demand more.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by CaptHaddock

[bubba]

All good points, Cap'n, but I am looking back at my last Uber rides in Chiang Mai and my charges were a lot less than those. 

 

e.g.:

 

5:30 mins, 2.29 km: 27 baht

 

10:19 mins, 5.43 km: 39 baht

 

34 mins, 13.5 kms: 86 baht

 

Seriously not a good deal for drivers, regardless of how you figure depreciation and other expenses, let alone something more than 1 baht/km for their time. 

[CaptHaddock]

1 minute ago, bubba said:

All good points, Cap'n, but I am looking back at my last Uber rides in Chiang Mai and my charges were a lot less than those. 

 

e.g.:

 

5:30 mins, 2.29 km: 27 baht

 

10:19 mins, 5.43 km: 39 baht

 

34 mins, 13.5 kms: 86 baht

 

Seriously not a good deal for drivers, regardless of how you figure depreciation and other expenses, let alone something more than 1 baht/km for their time. 

 

Labor costs in Chiang Mai are lower than in BKK.  But car ownership costs are not.  So, it's an even worse deal up there.  They are probably losing money every kilometer.  They'd be better off to stay home and watch tv.

[TravelTeach]

I've just been back from showing an elderly person around Thailand for a few weeks. Due to the "elderly" factor, I wasn't able to rent a scooter or walk as much as normal. I used both Uber and Grab around BKK and Chiang Mai and it worked like a freaking treat. We took an Uber from the Grand Palace to Asok, got stuck in traffic and it cost me 200 baht for a 65 minute trip. Fair deal. Uber also avoided the tuk-tuk bargaining in Chiang Mai.

 

Only strange thing about Uber in CM is that the service is a flat 150 baht from anywhere to the airport. I've never seen flat fares with Uber anywhere else in the world, but it's a fair enough price.

 

Overall I found the prices to be the same or less than normal taxis. And the fact that they pick you up exactly where you are without any bs about which street to take or "too much traffic" is golden.

 

Long live taxi apps.

[SaintLouisBlues]

1 hour ago, TravelTeach said:

Only strange thing about Uber in CM is that the service is a flat 150 baht from anywhere to the airport. I've never seen flat fares with Uber anywhere else in the world, but it's a fair enough price.

Same in Bangkok with UberBlack - 1,000 baht usually, flat fare

[bubba]

150 baht is certainly a fair price, particularly since the taxi mafia charge 250 baht flat.

 

Apart from BKK, I have also seen flat rate in KL. Not sure where else they might do flat rates or why they do only in select cities.

[Diplomatico]

1 hour ago, bubba said:

All good points, Cap'n, but I am looking back at my last Uber rides in Chiang Mai and my charges were a lot less than those. 

 

e.g.:

 

5:30 mins, 2.29 km: 27 baht

 

10:19 mins, 5.43 km: 39 baht

 

34 mins, 13.5 kms: 86 baht

 

Seriously not a good deal for drivers, regardless of how you figure depreciation and other expenses, let alone something more than 1 baht/km for their time. 

 

  You're getting those rates because you're using the promotional codes, one presumes.  I'm relatively certain Uber is paying the driver the percentage of the full fare, not the net fare after the promotion is deducted.  (For example, I've had some zero baht fares on Uber thanks to referrals and promotions.  I don't think Uber made the driver work without pay for those rides.)  

 

  Also, none of the anecdotes on here take into account the Uber "surge pricing" aspect.  Two or three nights ago when it was raining, it would have cost you 226 thb to take an Uber from the Old City to Maya Mall.  There is little doubt in my mind that tourists would be willing to pay that price.  The flat rates to the airport of 150thb and to Doi Suthep of 250 thb are also well worth the drivers time.  

 

  

[lkn]

1 hour ago, CaptHaddock said:

My wife recently took an Uber ride for 34.49 kilometers at a total cost of ฿521.11.  If the driver's take is 75%, that works out to ฿390.83 or ฿11.32/km.  Less his overhead for the car and he's making 1 baht/kilometer.  As I said, he's working only to extract his own equity from the car itself. 

 

The driver is unlikely to have paying customers for all of the 34.49 kilometers back to his origin, it would probably be reasonable to assume that for every kilometer with a customer, he drives another one without.

 

[bubba]

1 minute ago, Diplomatico said:

 

  You're getting those rates because you're using the promotional codes, one presumes.  I'm relatively certain Uber is paying the driver the percentage of the full fare, not the net fare after the promotion is deducted.  (For example, I've had some zero baht fares on Uber thanks to referrals and promotions.  I don't think Uber made the driver work without pay for those rides.)  

 

  Also, none of the anecdotes on here take into account the Uber "surge pricing" aspect.  Two or three nights ago when it was raining, it would have cost you 226 thb to take an Uber from the Old City to Maya Mall.  There is little doubt in my mind that tourists would be willing to pay that price.  The flat rates to the airport of 150thb and to Doi Suthep of 250 thb are also well worth the drivers time.  

 

  

 

No, none of those fares was using a discount code. 

 

I spoke with a driver in Chiang Mai about how it works. Uber pay the drivers the full fare, not subtracting the discount codes. Uber then take a 25% commission and the driver takes 75%. 

 

So throughout this discussion relative profits or the lack thereof for the driver and the fares paid, don't forget to subtract 25% from the fare.

 

Here is the fare chart for CNX (with the driver collecting 75% of these):

 

Base Fare

THB20.00

+

Per Minute

THB2.00

+

Per KM

THB2.00

[Diplomatico]

8 minutes ago, bubba said:

 

No, none of those fares was using a discount code. 

 

I spoke with a driver in Chiang Mai about how it works. Uber pay the drivers the full fare, not subtracting the discount codes. Uber then take a 25% commission and the driver takes 75%. 

 

So throughout this discussion relative profits or the lack thereof for the driver and the fares paid, don't forget to subtract 25% from the fare.

 

Here is the fare chart for CNX (with the driver collecting 75% of these):

 

Base Fare

THB20.00

+

Per Minute

THB2.00

+

Per KM

THB2.00

 

 Thanks,  I understand the fare structure.  Using it, though - your 10:19 minute, 5.43 km ride should have cost you more than 39 thb.  That's why I asked about promo codes.  

 

  I also think that once a driver is considered "long term" he gets 80% of the fare and Uber gets 20%.  The 75/25 split is for "short term" drivers.....at least that's how it works in other cities.