Italian PM sufferes heavy defeat in constitutional vote

[webfact]

Italian PM sufferes heavy defeat in constitutional vote

 

 

ROME: -- Italians have voted to reject constitutional reforms in a referendum largely seen as a confidence vote in their prime minister.

 

As soon as voting ended exit polls estimated between 54 and 58 percent have voted no with between 42 and 46% voting Yes.

 

The vote, called by centre-left Prime Minister Matteo Renzi, was on plans to streamline parliament. 

Specifically to reduce the power of the Senate, cutting its members from 315 to 100 in order to speed up Italy^s cumbersome law-making process.

 

The result now leaves the future of Prime Minister Matteo Renzi un clear. Before the vote he said he will resign if he loses.

 

Most opposition parties were against the reforms with the anti-establishment Five Star Movement leading the way.

 

 

-- © Copyright Euronews 2016-12-05

[selftaopath]

Maybe he could take a page out of "The Groper's" book and merely utter"I didn't say that." :-) 

[webfact]

ROME (AP) - Italian Premier Matteo Renzi concedes defeat in referendum, takes responsibility for defeat.

[webfact]

ROME (AP) - Italy's Premier Matteo Renzi says he's resigning after defeat of reforms referendum .

[OMGImInPattaya]

"What...me worry?"  

 

Another establishment domino falls and another brick in the European Union wall crumbles.

[webfact]

Italian PM to quit after voters reject his constitutional reforms

 

 

ROME:  --  Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi is to resign following a heavy defeat in Sunday’s constitutional reform referendum. Although ostensibly on plans to streamline parliament the poll was largely seen as a confidence vote in the leader. Renzi announced his intention to quit in an address to the nation.

 

“My government’s experience ends here. I believe that in order to change this political system, in which leaders remain the same and switch different positions, but don’t change the country, we cannot pretend for an umpteenth time that everything remains as before. They don’t change their habits and they will never leave their seats. I wanted to cut extra seats, but I didn’t succeed. Therefore, it is my seat which is becoming vacant.”

 

Exit polls have projected a convincing defeat for Renzi and the “yes” camp, by as much as 20 points.

 

Most opposition parties were against, with the anti -establishment Five Star Movement leading the way,
tapping into a strong populist mood. The party whose head is Beppe Grillo, wants a referendum on whether Italy should keep the euro.

 

Renzi will formally offer his resignation to President Sergio Mattarella on Monday.

 

The result represents a fresh blow to the European union an represent a fresh blow to the European Union which is struggling to overcome an array of crises and was eager for Renzi to continue his reform drive in the euro zone’s heavily indebted, third-largest economy.

 

-- © Copyright Euronews 2016-12-05

[Laughing Gravy]

Oh dear the EU is crumbling with a populist revolution from the European countries against the EU. France and Germany next. The EU with their arrogance attitude just have not listened and didn't want to reform when the UK wanted to negotiate. Then brexit happened and they have become even more dogmatic. Well done the Italians and I ma now convinced that it will not be long before the EU is destroyed in its current form. The Euro is in disarray and with so many countries owing so much money with one of them the Italians, I can see the Euro crashing very soon.

 

Once again the polls got it wrong or are they just fixed? It was suggesting it was neck and neck when in reality the president was heavily defeated.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Laughing Gravy

[webfact]

Renzi quits; Italian populists seek quick vote to win power 
FRANCES D'EMILIO, Associated Press

 

ROME (AP) — Italian voters dealt Premier Matteo Renzi a stinging defeat on his reforms referendum, triggering his resignation announcement and galvanizing the populist, opposition 5-Star Movement's determination to gain national power soon.

 

The outcome also energized the anti-immigrant Northern League party, an ally of French far-right leader Marine Le Pen, a candidate in France's presidential race.

 

The blow to Renzi also delivered a rebuke to Italy's industrialists, banks and other establishment institutions, which had staunchly backed the referendum. The political upset, which could spook investors, comes just as the government had made some inroads in cutting the staggering rate of youth employment and while Italy's banks have urgent need for recapitalization.

 

During the campaign, the risk of political instability in Italy, Europe's fourth-largest economy, triggered market reaction, with bank stocks sinking and borrowing costs on sovereign debt rising.

 

The Movement, led by anti-euro comic Beppe Grillo, spearheaded the No camp on the constitutional reforms, a package aimed at updating Italy's post-war Constitution that Renzi had depicted as vital to modernizing Italy and reviving its economy.

 

Characteristically confident -- detractors say arrogant -- Renzi, 41, and Italy's youngest premier, had bet his political future -- or at least his current premiership -- on a Yes vote win, and campaigned hard for a victory in recent weeks to confound opinion polls indicating that it would likely go down to defeat.

 

With votes counted from nearly all the polling stations in Sunday's referendum, the No's were leading Yes votes by a 6-to-4 margin, Interior Ministry data indicated. The turnout of 67 percent was especially high for a referendum, and more in line for a vote for Parliament.

 

"I lost and the post that gets eliminated is mine," Renzi said early Monday about an hour after the polls closed. "The government's experience is over, and in the afternoon I'll go to the Quirinal Hill to hand in my resignation" to President Sergio Mattarella.

 

Leaders of the populist 5-Star Movement, which is led by Grillo, joined the chorus among opposition forces for early elections. The 5-Stars are the chief rivals of Renzi's Democrats and are anxious to achieve national power for the first time.

 

"Today the caste in power lost," said a 5-Star leader, Luigi Di Maio. It was a sharp retort to Renzi's characterizing the reforms as an opportunity to shrink the "caste" of elite, perk-enjoying politicians by reducing the numbers and powers of Senators.

 

"Arrogance lost, from which we'll learn many things in forming our team for government and our platform," Di Maio said. "Starting tomorrow we'll be working on a government of the 5-Stars, we'll involve the energies and the free persons who want to participate."

 

The 5-Stars' constituency is largely internet based, and bills itself as anti-establishment.

 

"The man alone at the command doesn't exist anymore, but the citizens who govern the institutions" do, Di Maio told a news conference minutes after Renzi conceded.

 

Mattarella, as head of state, would have to decide whether to accept Renzi's resignation.

 

Renzi is widely expected to be asked to stay on at least until a budget bill can be passed later this month and to shepherd the process of reforming electoral rules, which now as they stand, would grant the biggest vote-getting a generous bonus of seats in Parliament.

 

With the momentum on their side, the 5-Stars expressed minimal interest in any ambitious reform.

 

Renzi's Democrats and the center-right opposition of former Premier Silvio Berlusconi want the law changed to avoid such a big bonus to a winner, in case the 5-Stars garner the most votes.

 

Elections are due in spring 2018, but with Renzi's stepping down, they would likely be held sometime in 2017.

 

Another opposition leader, Matteo Salvini, of the anti-immigrant Northern League, hailed the referendum as a "victory of the people against the strong powers of three-quarters of the world." He urged elections straightaway.

 

Many had read the referendum as an outlet for growing anti-establishment, populist sentiment in Europe.

 

When Renzi late last year promised to resign if the referendum was defeated, it was months before Britain's David Cameron had made his ill-fated bet that a referendum would cement the U.K.'s membership in the European Union. He was forced to resign when Britons instead voted to leave the EU fold.

 

In Italy, the referendum was required because the reforms were approved by less than two-thirds of Parliament. But Renzi raised the stakes, turning the referendum into a virtual plebiscite on himself, when he pledged to quit if Italians turned their back on reforms to streamline the Senate and give the central government more powers at the cost of the regions.

 

"We are ready to vote as soon as possible," Salvini told reporters.

 

Renzi had been hoping to survive the rising populist forces that have gained traction across Europe.

 

Earlier on Sunday, in Austria's presidential runoff, left-leaning candidate Alexander Van der Bellen prevailed over a right-wing populist.

 

In Italy, Renzi's opponents counted on tapping into the populist sentiment rising in much of Europe as well as the U.S. presidential victory last month by billionaire political outsider Donald Trump.

_

Colleen Barry contributed from Milan.

 

-- © Associated Press 2016-12-05

[daveAustin]

Byee

[freebyrd]

Freddie Mercury is getting louder with each passing vote - another one bites the dust.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Oh dear the EU is crumbling with a populist revolution from the European countries against the EU. France and Germany next. The EU with their arrogance attitude just have not listened and didn't want to reform when the UK wanted to negotiate. Then brexit happened and they have become even more dogmatic. Well done the Italians and I ma now convinced that it will not be long before the EU is destroyed in its current form. The Euro is in disarray and with so many countries owing so much money with one of them the Italians, I can see the Euro crashing very soon.

 

Once again the polls got it wrong or are they just fixed? It was suggesting it was neck and neck when in reality the president was heavily defeated.

 

Polls suggested he would be defeated. The differences were more to do with regard to margin.

[Laughing Gravy]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Polls suggested he would be defeated. The differences were more to do with regard to margin.

At one point it was neck and neck and I do agree that it was then suggested, it would be a small marginal win for no. My point was that it was not. The polls are wrong yet again. Brexit, Trump and now Italy.

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

At one point it was neck and neck and I do agree that it was then suggested, it would be a small marginal win for no. My point was that it was not. The polls are wrong yet again. Brexit, Trump and now Italy.

 

This may give a better understanding of relevant polling results and trends. Not quite in line with the examples cited, but then again, we the advent of populism, facts are immaterial.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Italian_constitutional_referendum,_2016

[siam2007]

8 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

At one point it was neck and neck and I do agree that it was then suggested, it would be a small marginal win for no. My point was that it was not. The polls are wrong yet again. Brexit, Trump and now Italy.

 

 

It is not a one-way street though.

 

Yesterday in Austria, the rightist candidate Hofer was poised to win the presidentship, but he suffered an unexpected heavy loss

[elgordo38]

2 hours ago, webfact said:

Renzi, 41, and Italy's youngest premier, had bet his political future -

These guys always carry on in some way shape or form. Politics is a secret society that takes care of their own regardless if they fall on their face or not. They just climb another branch of the political tree hand out system. 

[chilli42]

I know nothing about the politics of the situation but reducing the senate from over 300 to 100 could never be a bad move in the chaotic bureauracrcy of Italy.

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, siam2007 said:

 

 

It is not a one-way street though.

 

Yesterday in Austria, the rightist candidate Hofer was poised to win the presidentship, but he suffered an unexpected heavy loss

So the pollsters were wrong again in Austria.

 

The electorate did vote anti 'establishment' there - just not for the expected party.

[Morch]

41 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

So the pollsters were wrong again in Austria.

 

The electorate did vote anti 'establishment' there - just not for the expected party.

 

Polls are never definitive, and the poll results in this case were not outside acceptable deviations.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Austrian_presidential_election,_2016

 

(the bottom section is the relevant one with regard to final results).

[dick dasterdly]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Polls are never definitive, and the poll results in this case were not outside acceptable deviations.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Austrian_presidential_election,_2016

 

(the bottom section is the relevant one with regard to final results).

It doesn't really matter as the one thing we do know is that the pollsters have got it wrong every time in the recent elections and referendums.

[Morch]

21 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

It doesn't really matter as the one thing we do know is that the pollsters have got it wrong every time in the recent elections and referendums.

 

I understand that's the popular view, but that's not quite how it works. Almost all polls come with the caveat that there's an acceptable margin of error. There were actually quite a few informative posts on how this margin is calculated and what it effectively means. While the polls were off with regard to the US presidential elections, it is not exactly the same when it comes to Brexit, the Italian referendum or the Austrian elections. There were also posts made which explain some of the reasons regarding right wing voting trends being trickier to poll.

[dick dasterdly]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I understand that's the popular view, but that's not quite how it works. Almost all polls come with the caveat that there's an acceptable margin of error. There were actually quite a few informative posts on how this margin is calculated and what it effectively means. While the polls were off with regard to the US presidential elections, it is not exactly the same when it comes to Brexit, the Italian referendum or the Austrian elections. There were also posts made which explain some of the reasons regarding right wing voting trends being trickier to poll.

Its not only "the popular view", it also the accurate view to say that the pollsters were wrong.

 

You can argue as much as you like as to how they weren't wrong (within an acceptable' "margin of error") - but they were still wrong.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Its not only "the popular view", it also the accurate view to say that the pollsters were wrong.

 

You can argue as much as you like as to how they weren't wrong (within an acceptable' "margin of error") - but they were still wrong.

 

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant by popular view.

[watso63]

Hey EU, see EU, don't wanna be EU???

Edited December 5, 2016 by watso63
Missed a word out

[watso63]

I'v been told off and had warnings for my "conspiracy theories" by TV but I've now had a clean sweep. Tories, Brexit, Trump and now this. Feeling vindicated, smug and satisfied.???

[elgordo38]

5 hours ago, chilli42 said:

I know nothing about the politics of the situation but reducing the senate from over 300 to 100 could never be a bad move in the chaotic bureauracrcy of Italy.

I think his real goal was to reduce it to 1 himself. 

[arithai12]

I wonder how many of those posting here actually know much about italian politics. Wait, I know the answer.

 

About polls, they never said that Yes would win, so what's the problem? And especially, what's the point? Do you vote according to what the polls predict, or following your own mind?

 

[Gene1960]

 
Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant by popular view.

Popular view is all that matters. People will be voting without the pressure of the polls.

[Morch]

12 hours ago, Gene1960 said:

Popular view is all that matters. People will be voting without the pressure of the polls.

 

And yet another example of how we're sliding further into a fact free society.