University teaching shows why Thais' command of English is so abysmal!

[Loeilad]

23 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Bang on comment on the French part. Totally true! Their accent is perfect. Even my wife, who knows a few words here and there, pronounces them almost like a native-speaker. It is amazing. 

 

So, we do agree that the lack of a reliable spelling for the schwa in English, along with the irregular stresses, which the presence of the schwa would help indicating, is the problem. They can learn languages. They cannot learn a language that does not have a decent spelling system. The evidence is incontrovertible. I have posted the evidence. I have yet to have ONE English-speaker reply to my post saying. Yes, it is true that the English spelling system is a mess and we should fix it. NOT ONE! As I say, we can complain about the Thais all we want, we are part of the problem too and in some ways we are similarly lacking in transparency and maturity. There is still time before this threat closes to have one courageous English-speaker admit that the English spelling system is flawed and it needs to be fixed. Come on! It is not so bad! It is not you, your fault,...

I don't think that spelling is a huge problem for Thais....I don't agree that the language is a mess - I think this is part of the fluidity and flexibility of english that the spelling has arisen out of multiple sources, linguistic and environmental. It should also be pointed out that attempts to "make sense" of English spelling have usually fallen flat on their face.

 

Have you read "Spell it out" by David Crystal?

 

I think rhythm and stress present a problem just as tone does for English speakers learning Thai.

IA thai speaker may say a totally correct English word to me, but if the stress is wrong, I simply "can't" hear it. same goes for English speakers trying to speak tonal languages.

 I should mention that Thai is not considered to be 100% syllable timed, but it helps English learners to think this.

 

the schwa - is a most wonderful noise made by English speakers and teachers don't seen to spend much time on it - which is building up trouble for later.....

the number of times I've heard teachers mispronouncing vowels to a class because they fail to understand the use of schwa.

the indefinite article is schwa is it not" yet how many teachers pronounce it as "AY" in front of a class.

 

Ask yourself how many syllables in "dictionary"?....my Dad would have said 5...I say 3

[maewang99]

someone posts that English is a 2nd language for Thai.  at best, it's a 3rd language and sometimes the 4th or 5th.  "pasa Thai" is at best a 2nd language for many Thai, unless you live in Central Thailand.  

next, how can someone who writes in English write that written English is not phonetically written or that there is any problem at all with how we use vowels or how it is written versus pronounced? English is specialized for two functions, not one.... most all languages have 2 functions, a writing system and a speaking system. 
except Central Thai

the written form of English is for reading and writing... not speaking and listening...  that's why we don't have any written vowel symbols (graphemes)... we only have 5 such symbols but about 40 actual vowels... it's easier to read because we skip the stupid vowel sounds...they are only needed for speaking and listening... because unlike Thai, written English is for writing and reading only. 

Central Thai only has one purpose, speaking and listening only. It's written form is all but phonetic.  And the northern language has no written system at all.

that's why you know where the post office is , and the nearest hospitals and police stations... but most folks have no idea where even the main branch library is, let alone any of their local branch libraries... in their own home towns! no one notices this?? 

how can such basics of language be missed? language is basic to what we are, it is what makes us human.  and I suppose I'm going to surprise a few folks by also telling you that it's primary purpose is not for communication.  is that right?  (language's primary purpose is for thinking.  quite unlike any animal communication system. it allows us to think in the abstract.  and it is something we do not learn, we are born with it.)

absolutely amazing.   



 

[sprq]

On 06/12/2016 at 1:29 PM, Johnniey said:

Obviously not a native English speaker.

 

 

[nong38]

You cannot tell any Thai teacher anything they know everything, they will continue to teach what "they think is English"and no one dares to tackle them about it, they are right that are Thai teachers!

I once did my wife's English homework for her, she got a mark of 25% and when I asked what was wrong with it the teacher could not answer the question! So therein lies the problem, in Thailand the education does not want help, does not want to change for they are the guardians of the English language"

Give me strength, this is not an education system it is somewhere they send children so that parents can go to work, in the west is often called childcare!

[maewang99]

none of these words have anywhere near the same meaning in the west as they do in Thailand and to some degree other Asian countries as well, but only some other Asian countries:

 

teacher

student

education

 

take "student".... in Thailand it means someone of a certain age that wears a uniform and some additional rules about behavior.  in the west, if anyone ever stops being a student... they never were a student.  very very different.

  

 

 

[sprq]

On 06/12/2016 at 3:30 PM, GAZZPA said:

What? There are no versions of English. English is English. There are some slight differences on some words and some local slang but mostly it is purely accent, nothing more.

 

From what I observe thai people have a better grasp then the press would have you believe. Of course if you speak too fast then it can be a problem for some but generally its ok for basic things everyday.

 

However, neighbouring countries such as Singapore, Malaysia and particularly the Philippines are light years away with English language skills.

 

 

 

 

 

Sheer ignorance. Professional linguists categorise English into many varieties. To name just a few, there are British English, American English, Australian English, Singaporean English, South African English and Jamaican English. They are differentiated because they have differing grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation. "Accent", contrary to what you say, is the least of the differences. 

[maewang99]

I really think the big issue is that Central Thai is phonetically written.

English for instance has only 5 vowel graphemes, because written English is specialized for reading and writing. 

Central Thai is only for speaking and listening. 



 

[sprq]

On 06/12/2016 at 3:58 PM, AlQaholic said:

Are you an English person?

Are you English?

Are you an Englishman?

Are you from England?

Are your heritage from England by any means?

Do you stem from England perhaps?

Is England the Country from where you come?

Is England you country of origin?

Are you from that little Island just North of Europe?

Is it from England that you come?

Did you come from England?

Do you count England as your place of origin?

 

 

None of these is the correct translation, which is "You're English, are you?"

[EnlightenedAtheist]

9 minutes ago, maewang99 said:

someone posts that English is a 2nd language for Thai.  at best, it's a 3rd language and sometimes the 4th or 5th.  "pasa Thai" is at best a 2nd language for many Thai, unless you live in Central Thailand.  

next, how can someone who writes in English write that written English is not phonetically written... English is two languages.... like most all languages.. except Central Thai.... the written version is for reading and writing... that's why we don't have any written vowel symbols (graphemes)... we only have 5 such symbols but about 40 actual vowels... it's easier to read because we skip the stupid vowel sounds...they are only needed for speaking and listening... because unlike Thai, written English is for writing and reading only.  Central Thai only has one purpose, speaking and listening only. It's written form is all but phonetic.  And the northern language has no written system at all.

that's why you know where the post office is , and the nearest hospitals and police stations... but most folks have no idea where even the main branch library is, let alone any of their local branch libraries... in their own home towns! no one notices this?? 

how can such basics of language be missed? language is basic to what we are, it is what makes us human.  and I suppose I'm going to surprise a few folks by also telling you that it's primary purpose is not for communication.  is that right?  (language's primary purpose is for thinking.  quite unlike any animal communication system. it allows us to think in the abstract.  and it is something we do not learn, we are born with it.)

absolutely amazing.   

 

I guess when you are stating that Thais are often bilingual or multilingual, you are talking about the different dialects. Is that right? Some of these dialects have no written form to speak of. So, to mention that they are multilingual is a bit over-the-top in that sense. 

 

English is partly phonemic as explained here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/957214-university-teaching-shows-why-thais-command-of-english-is-so-abysmal/?page=9#comment-11400726 I think that what you are saying that it is like it is 2 languages. Consonants are very regularly phonemic though. The alphabet could be improved and included more phonemes. The short-vowel phonemes should be introduced first not the alphabetic vowels.

 

 

There is a difference between language and spelling systems. We agree. Right? IN that sense, most people learn to speak and listen to at least one language with ease. It is often that reading and writing are problematic. The question is ... is it the system that is problematic or it is the people? It is my contention that it is the system that is. I wish the system was better so that a better understanding between all humans could occur. It is kind of hard to do when people don't speak the same language.

[maewang99]

you got my gist.  that's the important thing. but defining Kam Mueang as a dialect of Central Thai is rather silly. 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

34 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

The Philippines are doing well in English partly due to introducing English in kindergarten and then by using it as the language of instruction for core subjects, I believe this has been mandatory in all public schools since the 80's, however teachers are permitted to use a combination of Filipino and English, but not any other mother tongues, and so the amount of English received will vary school to school.

 

Thanks. Great points. To do that, one must have a lot of teachers trained and willing to do it. How are my hypotheses? Do you know more?

[maewang99]

as for reading and writing, English is really two languages, especially so from a Thai perspective.  that is why we have only 5 vowel graphemes, for instance.  it is quicker to read and write if you don't have to spell phonetically.  but we do with Central Thai.

it's just like how if you study languages in general,  at some point you discover that (1) all human languages share a set of universal basics and (2) language is not primarily for communication.. it is how we think and it is what makes us human... communication is secondary to the human language capacity.

 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

19 minutes ago, sprq said:

 

Sheer ignorance. Professional linguists categorise English into many varieties. To name just a few, there are British English, American English, Australian English, Singaporean English, South African English and Jamaican English. They are differentiated because they have differing grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation. "Accent", contrary to what you say, is the least of the differences. 

 

There are many varieties of accents. It is true that it does take some getting used to some dialects. It makes learning a it more difficult when one is getting toi heart all kinds of varieties though. I am not Thai, but I think this does not help. The spelling system is confusing enough as it is, one should not add one more layer of complexity on top of that. I will add your point in my list. Good point.

 

Although the chart shows off some of the most extreme differences (common words are prone to more eccentricities), it highlights the general difficulties.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_chart_for_English_dialects

[maewang99]

Thailand has plenty of teachers already, even if we don't count the contract ones.....

 

by teaching core subjects in English, the PI student is using language for what it is intended for... thinking.  that is not done at all in the Thai system, in any human language let alone any of the Thai "dialects" including the Central Thai one that many folks refer to as "pasa Thai".

that's the key difference as contrasted with the PI. 

for example, most Thai students have no regular habit of raising their hand in the classroom... whereas for most of the rest of us we raise our hands without even consciously thinking of it.  as a reflex when we don't understand something in class or want to add our own ideas to that of other students or the teachers ideas.

[Shawn0000]

10 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Thanks. Great points. To do that, one must have a lot of teachers trained and willing to do it. How are my hypotheses? Do you know more?

 

Yes, an awful lot of teachers competent in English, that would only be achievable in Thailand with a substantial wage hike. 

 

Your hypotheses are good, I think you have covered most if not all aspects.

 

No, I truly know less. ;(

[maewang99]

Thailand has too many teachers.... without even counting any of the contract ajarn.  And their English skills are irrelevant if the students are supposed to just sit in the classroom like dodo birds.

 

as for money, they are already the highest paid civil service... same pay scales as a medical specialist or judge at the highest level. only the Civil Service wannabees get paid meager salaries and benefits... and the fake farlang (and other foreign) tea money "teachers".

[sprq]

On 06/12/2016 at 10:13 PM, Shawn0000 said:

 

That theory would work if English was a phonetic language, as it is not it is actually way off.  Spelling is obviously not the problem as Thai students ability to spell far exceeds their ability to pronounce and also understand spoken English, the problem lying in the unbalanced teaching of the four skills.

There is no such thing as a "phonetic language". There are languages that have a spelling system which closely correlates with the spoken language, such as Spanish, and languages where the spelling system is anarchic and so does not correlate very well with the spoken language, with English being an outstanding example.

 

It's truly tough for students worldwide that the world's lingua franca has such a chaotic spelling system, but there's nothing we can do about it now.

[maewang99]

Central Thai is written phonetically.  that's why the English/Thai Thai/English biling dictionaries have no need for the IPA or a Webster Guide.

 

written English is perfect... for reading and writing.

no problem... if there is a problem it ain't because of the English writing system.
 

[sprq]

On 07/12/2016 at 10:34 AM, pookiki said:

It was clear a long time ago, mate.  English is also an 'ethnicity', right?  That is the distinction that I was trying to make all along. Just trying to make a distinction between nationality and ethnicity.  Lost in translation! 

 

English is absolutely not an ethnicity. When referring to people, it is solely a nationality. An English person can be of any ethnicity whatsoever.

[maewang99]

yeah.

when someone asks "where ya from?" it's merely conversational in the rest of the world.  here it is code.

Thai culture means Thai educated.  it means who the person is.

in the west, who a person is has NOTHING to do with where they send their tax payments to..... uhh.. let me qualify that for the USA... only on the two coasts....what really goes on in the middle of the country I have my doubts about. 

[Shawn0000]

4 minutes ago, sprq said:

There is no such thing as a "phonetic language". There are languages that have a spelling system which closely correlates with the spoken language, such as Spanish, and languages where the spelling system is anarchic and so does not correlate very well with the spoken language, with English being an outstanding example.

 

It's truly tough for students worldwide that the world's lingua franca has such a chaotic spelling system, but there's nothing we can do about it now.

 

There is, we could change it, in fact we already have started, the Americans have been busy at it for 200 years and they show no sign of stopping.  A few examples; defense, thru, donut.  We could also follow China's model and introduce something in the way of Standard Simplified English.

[Shawn0000]

8 minutes ago, sprq said:

 

English is absolutely not an ethnicity. When referring to people, it is solely a nationality. An English person can be of any ethnicity whatsoever.

 

English is not a nation therefore not a nationality.

[maewang99]

Thai / English  and English / Thai bilingual dictionaries have no need for an IPA or Webster guide. why?????

because Central Thai is all but 100% phonetic... even the exceptions are very consistent, such that arguably we can write a set of rules that makes it all but 100% phonetically written. 

the tones, vowel lengths, all of the phonemes... are written in Central Thai.  and Central Thai can be used to write almost any spoken language.. and is for Kam Mueang.... as well as English itself (i.e. once again, in the bilingual dictionaries used here).

 

that is VERY different from English and hence a serious paradigm for Thai learners. 

[maewang99]

another example of English as two functions/versions.  not just that we don't spell our vowels in the written form.....

in the spoken system we can change tones to add meaning....  but by doing so not causing any confusion or error at all in fact, the opposite...  we can't do that at all in Central Thai.  it is phonetic between the literary version and the spoken language.   English is not.

 

[Shawn0000]

23 minutes ago, maewang99 said:

Thailand has too many teachers.... without even counting any of the contract ajarn.  And their English skills are irrelevant if the students are supposed to just sit in the classroom like dodo birds.

 

as for money, they are already the highest paid civil service... same pay scales as a medical specialist or judge at the highest level. only the Civil Service wannabees get paid meager salaries and benefits... and the fake farlang (and other foreign) tea money "teachers".

 

No, civil servants are all on a pay-scale related to their qualification, it is within the constitution that all civil service salaries are relative, it is not legally possible to increase one services salaries without effecting all of the civil service.  A teacher starts out with a bachelors on 14,000, a doctor starts out with a doctorate on 26,000, they both receive annual salary increases of 5-6%.

[maewang99]

okay, I am corrected on the civil service scales....I get it.

I was over zealous because I believe "Thailand is a poor country" is used too much of as an excuse rather than a valid reason for what I see in this system.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

On 12/6/2016 at 10:13 PM, Shawn0000 said:

 

That theory would work if English was a phonetic language, as it is not it is actually way off.  Spelling is obviously not the problem as Thai students ability to spell far exceeds their ability to pronounce and also understand spoken English, the problem lying in the unbalanced teaching of the four skills.

 

Actually, not to nitpick, we use the term phonemic, not phonetic. Spelling is one of the main problems. To minimize its importance is baffling. Did you miss my post or your are just ignoring me? I would agree that a better balance should be achieved and bringing the oral aspect early on and then later on the writing/reading would be helpful. Still, not all students learn well in this type of teaching. English forces teachers to make compromises that they would not otherwise make. There are many other reasons. I wonder what is the rate of illiteracy in Thai children today. That should be a good measure to see how efficient or inefficient their core system is. There are many variables. To dismiss English spelling as a mere distraction in the debate is unfair to Thais, teachers, students, parents. There is no magic bullet. The magic would be to get to the underlying issue.

 

@ SPRQ 

Quote

 

There is no such thing as a "phonetic language". There are languages that have a spelling system which closely correlates with the spoken language, such as Spanish, and languages where the spelling system is anarchic and so does not correlate very well with the spoken language, with English being an outstanding example.

 

It's truly tough for students worldwide that the world's lingua franca has such a chaotic spelling system, but there's nothing we can do about it now.

 

 

Thank you, both, for acknowledging that English spelling is problematic.

 

What if I were to tell you the impossible: that there are solutions by credible people with PhDs to fix it. Would you be open to actually hear it?

 

 

 

[maewang99]

English spelling is much more "problematic" if you see languages as needing to be consistent between the written and spoken versions of it.  in the west, we see almost no need for this because the two things are specialized for two different things.  Not Thai.

Thai is much more consistent between how it is spelled and how it is written.

English and Thai are quite unlike in this aspect.

this skews aspects of both teaching and learning English to Thai L1 and Thai L2 (where I live).. and is part of the crux of the problem.

 

[Shawn0000]

2 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Actually, not to nitpick, we use the term phonemic, not phonetic. Spelling is one of the main problems. To minimize its importance is baffling. Did you miss my post or your are just ignoring me? I would agree that a better balance should be achieved and bringing the oral aspect early one and then later on the writing/reading would be helpful. Still, not all students learn well in this type of teaching. English forces teachers to make compromise that they would not otherwise make.

 

@ SPRQ 

 

Thank you, both, for acknowledging that English spelling is problematic.

 

What if I were to tell you the impossible: that there are solutions by credible people with PhDs to fix it. Would you be open to actually hear it?

 

 

 

 

I do acknowledge that English spelling an issue, and not only for foreign language learners, I just didn't feel that it is one of the biggest issues in the case of Thai's English learning, the shortfall being in the speaking and listening skills, but then these do have a relationship with spelling, so I may just be plain wrong.

 

Yes, I would be interested to hear any solution.

[maewang99]

if your L1 is very consistent between it's written system and it's spoken system, you tend to believe that teaching and assessing the written one only.... is valid.

that's my point.

 

but it's not valid.

that's also my point.... and maybe the other guy's point too (Shawn0000).

 

and my third point is that language is not primarily for communication purposes anyways.  all human languages are first and foremost for thinking, not speaking, listening, writing or reading. for thinking in our own heads.  that's the current accepted theory in linguistics. as to the language capacity, not it's externalization. and so..... students need to use English for all of these things, or the Thai system will never work out very well. and certainly, only focusing on the written system works out quite poorly.

but it does "work" for Central Thai... and for a reason. the one I kept hammering on.