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House in Thailand Without Title

mjmcpo

By mjmcpo
in Marriage and Divorce

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mjmcpo Newbie

mjmcpo

Posted
Posted

I’m a US citizen who married in Thailand over 20 years ago at a local amphur. We never registered the marriage in the US, but have lived here for more than 15 years. Now that our kids are grown, we’ve decided to divorce. Simply don’t get along and have different ideas of how to live. She has never worked and I have supported her (and sometimes her mother while she was alive). I’m trying to do the right thing and have offered half of all marital assets and some continued support. However, my wife is claiming that the house that we built together in Northern Thailand is not part of the marital assets. Her argument is that it does not have a proper title and therefore, could be seized by the Thai government or military at any time. Meanwhile, she continues to pocket around $1,000 per month in rent from the property (this money once went into an account that we could tap into as needed, but is now going to a different account to which I have no access). In total, I have approximately $75K US invested there. Without a title, is there any way to have the property appraised? It is surrounded by other very nice homes, mostly owned by Thai/Foreign couples. Would there be any benefit to hiring a lawyer in Thailand?

Additionally,  I read somewhere that certain states in the US (including NC where I live) do not recognize foreign marriage certificates and therefore, according to them, I’m not married here. My lawyer here in the US is claiming he’s never heard of such of thing, but I doubt he’s ever actually represented someone in this situation. If this is the law, I thought it could be used as leverage to make her more reasonable regarding the Thai property. Anyone from the US with any knowledge of this law? Also, will I be required to go to Thailand in person to divorce there? Thanks in advance.

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happylarry Gold Member

happylarry

Posted
Posted

First let me explain the divorce procedure in Thailand. One of the two parties files a divorce petition with the court and you then have to wait for a period of 45 days when you will then get a date for the first hearing. The first hearing is a negotiation hearing with all parties and their lawyers and a judge presiding over the hearing. If after this negotiation hearing there appears to be no chance of a satisfactory conclusion then the court then makes a date for the full court hearing at which each party must present their evidence and then the judge makes a decision which must be adhered to. The court will then issue a final paper which one of the two parties will then take to the Amphur and a divorce certificate will then be issued.

Ok in answer to your question, my wife and the lawyer she works with have just finished a divorce case for another US citizen and he got his divorce and a satisfactory division of assets (more than he was expecting) and he did not have to come back to Thailand which also saved him a lot of money.

The way to do this is he signed a power of attorney over to the lawyer and this had to be notarised and sent back to be presented to the court. My wife and the lawyer then filed the petition and attended the negotiation hearing working on behalf of the client. My wife who is an interpreter was in contact with the client by phone and between them all they came to a satisfactory agreement and the court then granted the final paper and the divorce was concluded. However if it had gone to the main hearing to be tried by the judge then the client would have had to attend in person.

As for the house I am not sure what the answer is except that all assets accrued during the marriage are considered, this would include the rent that your wife is saving. More details need to be clarified before you will get a definitive answer to that one.

Hope this helps and I will send you a pm with my wife's business card in case you want any more info.

HL  

MikeyIdea Platinum Member

MikeyIdea

Posted
Posted

As Larry said, all assets are considered. It'd be good to talk to Larry's wife I think, she's more likely to support you well than most other interpretors and especially Thai lawyers. The courts are good and fair, it's your Thai lawyer you can't trust

 

If the land has a title or not only affects the value of the property, not how it is shared. What is important is that you have evidence of what is invested and evidence of rental income, both affecting value. Shouldn't be too difficult to find out if it has title or not. It probably has at least some kind of lower title

 

I see a couple of things here

Rental income: Whatever rental income there is will be shared. Your wife has now moved that income and that is just an attempt to hide it where you can't get evidence and I don't see that as bad. To move it and then not declare it in the court proceeding is of course an offence in a court of law. The same if she moved a lump sum too and don't declare it. You decide yourself if you want to pursue criminal charges for that in Thailand. It's easy to petition the court to get evidence from her bank accounts. It is very rare that it doesn't go through. Should be easy to get evidence from the western tenant too I would think, not as good  though

 

Leverage: 

Most experienced family lawyers in Thailand I have talked to say that women are stronger than men most of the time and they benefit from it. The wife wants to keep the property = you can force to get half = she must pay up or force to have it sold. Use that as leverage, especially as she doesn't want that. Get used to the idea that it needs to be sold I think. You will have an almost impossible time getting half of the rental income anyway - outside a court room anyway

 

10 hours ago, mjmcpo said:

I’m trying to do the right thing and have offered half of all marital assets and some continued support

Wife Alimony... You are not trying to do the right thing, you are trying to be a Christian, very different. Thai law reflects Buddhist belief and that is that what you bring into a marriage is yours when you leave, what you two earned and bought while you were married you share when you separate and that is it. Why continued support? Not Thai tradition at all

 

Her rights in America? Hardly going to work - Not much in it as you already offer half the assets - That's her initiative -> She won't do it

 

Mikey

 

elgordo38 Gold Member

elgordo38

Posted
Posted
On 12/11/2016 at 9:37 AM, happylarry said:

The way to do this is he signed a power of attorney over to the lawyer 

This part scares the bejesus out of me. My luck with lawyers has be terrrrible. In the end being your in the USA the lawyer could end up owning the house. Contact this poster and get the lawyers name who handled that case that would at least give you a fighting chance. 

elgordo38 Gold Member

elgordo38

Posted
Posted
On 12/11/2016 at 9:37 AM, happylarry said:

Hope this helps and I will send you a pm with my wife's business card in case you want any more info.

HL  

A really good option grab it. 

baansgr Gold Member

baansgr

Posted
Posted
On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 6:37 PM, happylarry said:

First let me explain the divorce procedure in Thailand. One of the two parties files a divorce petition with the court and you then have to wait for a period of 45 days when you will then get a date for the first hearing. The first hearing is a negotiation hearing with all parties and their lawyers and a judge presiding over the hearing. If after this negotiation hearing there appears to be no chance of a satisfactory conclusion then the court then makes a date for the full court hearing at which each party must present their evidence and then the judge makes a decision which must be adhered to. The court will then issue a final paper which one of the two parties will then take to the Amphur and a divorce certificate will then be issued.

Ok in answer to your question, my wife and the lawyer she works with have just finished a divorce case for another US citizen and he got his divorce and a satisfactory division of assets (more than he was expecting) and he did not have to come back to Thailand which also saved him a lot of money.

The way to do this is he signed a power of attorney over to the lawyer and this had to be notarised and sent back to be presented to the court. My wife and the lawyer then filed the petition and attended the negotiation hearing working on behalf of the client. My wife who is an interpreter was in contact with the client by phone and between them all they came to a satisfactory agreement and the court then granted the final paper and the divorce was concluded. However if it had gone to the main hearing to be tried by the judge then the client would have had to attend in person.

As for the house I am not sure what the answer is except that all assets accrued during the marriage are considered, this would include the rent that your wife is saving. More details need to be clarified before you will get a definitive answer to that one.

Hope this helps and I will send you a pm with my wife's business card in case you want any more info.

HL  

A divorce can be carried out at the Amphur within 30 minutes, no appointment necessary providing both parties are in agreement. It will depend if the house comes under sin somros or sin suan tua for the OP to know his right to a claim on the property.

happylarry Gold Member

happylarry

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, baansgr said:

A divorce can be carried out at the Amphur within 30 minutes, no appointment necessary providing both parties are in agreement. It will depend if the house comes under sin somros or sin suan tua for the OP to know his right to a claim on the property.

 

The poster was not asking about quickie divorces in the amphur, but about being able to divorce WITHOUT coming to Thailand, that is why I did not mention the amphur.

HL

realenglish1 Gold Member

realenglish1

Posted
Posted

According to Thai law everything gained during a marriage in Thailand has to be split 50/50 So a title is not the issue 

Its 50 50 yours and hers

Take the wife  to court and settle it there  Dont listen to her dribble from the mouth

Saan Gold Member

Saan

Posted
Posted
On 12/11/2016 at 9:37 AM, happylarry said:

First let me explain the divorce procedure in Thailand. One of the two parties files a divorce petition with the court and you then have to wait for a period of 45 days when you will then get a date for the first hearing. The first hearing is a negotiation hearing with all parties and their lawyers and a judge presiding over the hearing. If after this negotiation hearing there appears to be no chance of a satisfactory conclusion then the court then makes a date for the full court hearing at which each party must present their evidence and then the judge makes a decision which must be adhered to. The court will then issue a final paper which one of the two parties will then take to the Amphur and a divorce certificate will then be issued.

Ok in answer to your question, my wife and the lawyer she works with have just finished a divorce case for another US citizen and he got his divorce and a satisfactory division of assets (more than he was expecting) and he did not have to come back to Thailand which also saved him a lot of money.

The way to do this is he signed a power of attorney over to the lawyer and this had to be notarised and sent back to be presented to the court. My wife and the lawyer then filed the petition and attended the negotiation hearing working on behalf of the client. My wife who is an interpreter was in contact with the client by phone and between them all they came to a satisfactory agreement and the court then granted the final paper and the divorce was concluded. However if it had gone to the main hearing to be tried by the judge then the client would have had to attend in person.

As for the house I am not sure what the answer is except that all assets accrued during the marriage are considered, this would include the rent that your wife is saving. More details need to be clarified before you will get a definitive answer to that one.

Hope this helps and I will send you a pm with my wife's business card in case you want any more info.

HL  

What you are saying might be true of a contested divorce otherwise it is along to the amphur, pay a 100 baht and it is all over.

Retiredandhappyhere Explorer Member

Retiredandhappyhere

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, performance said:

Lol the Thai bitch. The military  can other seize anything Sir. You are not a drug dealer. First a Thai lawyer not US. IT'S 50 50 split sell up. list the best estate agent Google. Get a Thai lawyer no more talk crap to the Thai woman.  She knows only how to wipe her ass.

 

The house that I (foolishly) had built on land without chanote title, but with a lesser title common in that area, was effectively seized by the Military in 2004 by insisting that all owners in local villages signed a paper enabling the owners to continue living there for the time being but denying them the opportunity to sell.  My lawyer advised me that we had no option but to sign the document.  I wondered if this action by the authorities  was because plans for a nearby dam had resurfaced and the Government could obtain any land affected by the project free of any cost.

 

As the divorce ageement with my wife split the expected sale proceeds 50/50, this meant that my ex-wife who was entitled to live in the house until it was sold, while I moved into alternative accommodation, was in effect the sole gainer in the divorce. The house cost around 8 million baht to build 11 years ago, so I (and possibly my ex-wife) have lost out big time.

 

Before posters set their keyboards on fire by writing to tell me how stupid I was,  I know it, but was new to Thailand at the time and paid too much regard to a Bangkok architech who built the house. and to various other advisors.

happylarry Gold Member

happylarry

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Saan said:

What you are saying might be true of a contested divorce otherwise it is along to the amphur, pay a 100 baht and it is all over.

 

Read my last post (no, 10) obviously you haven't already....lol

HL

The Deerhunter Gold Member

The Deerhunter

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, catman20 said:

and im so happy im not married !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am happy I married the Thai that I did and also that I limited my financial involvement here and kept the bulk of my assets back home.  Once you bring it in it is hard to take it out and wise investments will usually be safer in a country where you understand the rules

'nuff said!!!

 

phantomfiddler Gold Member

phantomfiddler

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, Pat in Pattaya said:

75k?? Seriously, is that it, and you're making a big song and dance about it??

 

Move on man, and stop being so utterly pathetic!

 

You are very free with other people,s money, Pat ! $37,500 is IMHO an amount of money not to be walked away from, and I would find myself a straight lawyer as Larry suggests, and go for it ! Highly unlikely that there is no land title, most likely she is just blowing smoke where the sun never shines. Thai courts are very fair, unlike the general stories passed around, and I would say he has a good chance of 50%. As they say in U.K. that,s better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

catman20 Advanced Member

catman20

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, The Deerhunter said:

I am happy I married the Thai that I did and also that I limited my financial involvement here and kept the bulk of my assets back home.  Once you bring it in it is hard to take it out and wise investments will usually be safer in a country where you understand the rules

'nuff said!!!

 

very true, i hear many married men say how happy they are with their Thai wives, i wonder just how happy the Thai wives are with their farang husbands?????????????????

pommy pete Newbie

pommy pete

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, csabo said:

Don't buy a house

Don't get married

 

Two resolutions that solve 99% of your problems in Thailand.

I bought the condo in my name, the car in my name, never married her and the only thing in her name is the TOT bill. I would never by a house in Thailand I hate barking dogs at night

Wazza1 Rookie Member

Wazza1

Posted
Posted

Is she a U.S citizen, if not I would take for a holiday back to Thailand then one night take her passport and fly back to the U.S without her, then report to the U.S authorities that she had left and joined ISIS.

 

sandemara Rookie Member

sandemara

Posted
Posted

All and any assets (or debts!) accrued by either spouse in marriage under Thai law are held to be equally shared.  title (or lack of it) is irrelevant; properties are simply another shared asset. However, traditionally Thai courts tend to favour the male spouse, foreign or not, when it comes to division of assets.  The Thai wife will be well aware of this and is unlikely to want to see a resort to the courts to resolve disputes over assets of any kind.  It is also true the foreign husband  should be able to grant power of attorney to a local Thai lawyer representing his interests.  There are many reputable, reliable Thai law firms able to assist farang spouse interests such as in this case.

The OP could contact the US Embassy in Bangkok. It can provide a list of endorsed (through long experience) Thai law firms with expertise in his area of need. Some provide Skype as well as phone, fax and internet communication facilities

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