Are you guilty if your friend commit crime?

[Kvanting]

A young man related to me were together with some ten friends in a public place. Of some reason unknown to me one of his friends killed another young man by shooting him. The killed man was not one of the friends.

Now, everyone in the group are convicted to pay 400 000 THB each or serve 10 years in prison. To me (I'm Swedish citizen) this is absolutely absurd. Is this the truth about Thai law?

I have also been told that it is the affected family that determines fines and possibly even punishment. Is this really the truth?

[Berkshire]

Your question can't be answered unless you give the full story.  The full, honest story.  But I'm pretty sure that you're going to leave out the important details.  In my home country, the term is "accomplice" or perhaps, "accessory to the crime."  And what the heck is this "friend" doing with a gun in the first place?

[Kvanting]

Thanks Berkshire for your answer!

Of course I don't know the full story. Of course there might have been some kind of quarrel between the men where my related person might have been involved. However only one from the group can have shot the victim meaning that only one person be guilty of murder.

Why the other "friednd" carried a gun I don't know.

[rak sa_ngop]

Tell that to Derek Bentley which of course you can't because he was hanged for being an accomplice to the murder of a police constable in 1952. The person who did the killing got released after 10 years because he was still a juvenile at the time of the shooting. His friend who was with him at the time got hanged for maybe, or maybe not, shouting out 'Let him have it!'

[Scott]

Off-topic, nasty, unhelpful posts removed.   If you having nothing to add to the discussion, feel free to move on to another topic.  

 

 

[Strange]

1 hour ago, Kvanting said:

Thanks Berkshire for your answer!

Of course I don't know the full story. Of course there might have been some kind of quarrel between the men where my related person might have been involved. However only one from the group can have shot the victim meaning that only one person be guilty of murder.

Why the other "friednd" carried a gun I don't know.

 

You need to tell your friend to get a lawyer and you need to stop talking about this on an open forum. I know you want info but a murder charge is huge. 

 

Everyone involved, and everyone that knows anything needs to shut up and only talk to a lawyer. Nobody else. Only a lawyer. Thats what they are there for. 

[sotonowl]

I wouldn't know about Thai law but here in Britain, if you're in a group you'll be just as guilty as the bloke who pulled the trigger. As someone else has said, better get a lawyer if he wants to challenge it. But the most important thing here is someone has lost his life because someone was carrying a gun, he really needs to look at who he's knocking about with. Birds of a feather usually flock together.

 

[A1Str8]

If you were not there and have nothing to do with it, you are not guilty. 

Other people who were there can be convicted if there's evidence that they had something to do with the victim's death. 

The offer of the 400.000 thb is very strange. Such offers exist that's why the wealthy never goes to prison even if they commit murder. However it is not available to the general public. If it was and people were simply given a choice to pay instead of a prison term, few people would be behind bars. 

 

[optad]

meh/

[manarak]

5 hours ago, Kvanting said:

Thanks Berkshire for your answer!

Of course I don't know the full story. Of course there might have been some kind of quarrel between the men where my related person might have been involved. However only one from the group can have shot the victim meaning that only one person be guilty of murder.

Why the other "friednd" carried a gun I don't know.

 

I can only speculate your young friend may have been in one of these aggressive groups of students in Bangkok who think the city is a battleground where they must fight students from other universities.

In that case, he might be charged with "being a member of a criminal group/organization" - and if my speculation is accurate, I would support such a charge. Students should walk away from such dangerous groups.

[Jackie66]

I know something similar happened to people i know. There were 3 people in car. One was an old 60yo woman and two 40 something men. One of the men secretly stashed a bag of illegal pills under the seat without others knowing. To cut the story short. It was found by police and all 3 got jail time even the man guilty admitting it was him. The old woman was out after 6 months due to bad health and the other 2 men stayed in jail for a few years until they were both released at the same time.

[catman20]

if you lay with dogs you catch flees

[daveAustin]

Yep, unfortunately guilty by association in most places in the world. Unless you could somehow prove you knew nothing of the intention through a lawyer... probably stand more chance if you got together with the other 8 and denounce the perp. Best you could probably hope for is to negotiate the money, but at the end of the day, some poor soul has died and you don't want to get sent down for it. Careful what you sign when you pay up. 

[smotherb]

10 hours ago, Berkshire said:

Your question can't be answered unless you give the full story.  The full, honest story.  But I'm pretty sure that you're going to leave out the important details.  In my home country, the term is "accomplice" or perhaps, "accessory to the crime."  And what the heck is this "friend" doing with a gun in the first place?

A bit critical there aren't we?

 

First, how do you jump to the conclusion the OP will leave out the important details?

 

It seems to me when the entire group is charged there may be some confusion with the important details, even in the court and police. Consequently, the OP may not even know the important details.

 

Second, the fact that one member of a group carries a gun may not be known to all members of that group; so what the friend is doing with the gun may have FA to do with the OP's relative, except that he is now included in the crime.

[Morakot]

Quote

 

Now, everyone in the group are convicted to pay 400 000 THB each or serve 10 years in prison.

 

 

 

Most likely not a lawful penalty or part  of any official judicial process.

 

Making contributions to such a scheme not only undermines justice, but does not guarantee any desired outcome as payments can simple disappear when the wind changes. There is a high risk of an anti-corruptions investigation that can have serious consequences for anyone implicated.  

Edited December 13, 2016 by Morakot

[Strange]

7 hours ago, A1Str8 said:

If you were not there and have nothing to do with it, you are not guilty. 

 

True, maybe, but talking about a potential murder case, still likely being investigated, on an open forum, involving "your friend" could un-intentionallly reveal information that could incriminate yourself, and add evidence to the "friend". Even with the best intentions. 

 

Its a murder case. Murder. Loose lips sink ships. 

[Docno]

8 hours ago, sotonowl said:

I wouldn't know about Thai law but here in Britain, if you're in a group you'll be just as guilty as the bloke who pulled the trigger. As someone else has said, better get a lawyer if he wants to challenge it. But the most important thing here is someone has lost his life because someone was carrying a gun, he really needs to look at who he's knocking about with. Birds of a feather usually flock together.

 

Are there really any cases like this in modern Britain?? I can imagine that if a group of armed men goes to a place to rob it (for example) and one of them kills a person, that the others will be attributed some degree of legal responsibility for the death. But if I happen to be sitting at a bar with a group of friends and one of them gets into a fight with a stranger who dies during that fight (let's say, by shooting), I can't see how I would be in any way responsible for that outcome. And I can't see how a developed country like Britain would hold me responsible in this day and age...

[Morakot]

12 minutes ago, Docno said:

Are there really any cases like this in modern Britain??

 

Yes! The law in England and Wales has been particularly harsh on "joint enterprise" murders, until the landmark ruling of 2016.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35598896

Edited December 13, 2016 by Morakot

[NoshowJones]

2 hours ago, Jackie66 said:

I know something similar happened to people i know. There were 3 people in car. One was an old 60yo woman and two 40 something men. One of the men secretly stashed a bag of illegal pills under the seat without others knowing. To cut the story short. It was found by police and all 3 got jail time even the man guilty admitting it was him. The old woman was out after 6 months due to bad health and the other 2 men stayed in jail for a few years until they were both released at the same time.

As a matter of interest, in which country did this happen?

[Si Thea01]

 

Although you are unable to provide the relevant details surrounding the incident they would have been charged under the section of the Thailand criminal code relating to murder. However, given the brief outline you have provided and noticing that there were over three (3) people involved than the section below may have been applicable.

The amount of money paid (B400K) may well be in the form of compensation and not a fine, as the fine under this section is only B4,000.  Also the sentence is way above that listed, which is two (2) years., or the two (2) combined.

The amount of the fine indicated is also way above the maximum of B20K, as is the or ten (10) years imprisonment.  Either you have got it mixed up; someone is exaggerating or what you are alleging is not what actually happened. 

Your last wo questions, the answers are no and no.  They can seek compensation but the courts, under the law, impose the fines and sentences, not the aggrieved family. 

 

Section 294. Death as a Result of Mob Activity

 

Whoever participates in a public order offense among three persons upwards, and any person, whether such person participated or not has died, shall be imprisoned not more of two years or fined not more of four thousand Baht, or both.

 

If the participant in such affray can show that he or she has acted so as to prevent such affray or in lawful defense, such participant shall not be punished.

 

Given, according to yourself, that they were all brought before a court, then they would have had legal representation, so why others are telling you to get a lawyer, I cannot understand, however, under Thai law they have the right to appeal, to the Appeals Court, then to the Supreme Court, if the first appeal is not successful.  Also, given they were punished by the court, then the embolden paragraph would not be applicable.  In Addition the family also has the right of appeal.

 

 

Edited December 13, 2016 by Si Thea01

[IMA_FARANG]

Depends on the country and the crime.

For example in the U.S certain states have passes laws about having open Alchohol  containers in vehicles.

In theory at least in those states you could be riding in someone's car and he or she had an open container of Alchohol in that car then you could also be considered as a participant in that crime.

Would take a srict interpretation of the law for that to happen, however.

 

 

[humqdpf]

16 hours ago, Kvanting said:

Thanks Berkshire for your answer!

Of course I don't know the full story. Of course there might have been some kind of quarrel between the men where my related person might have been involved. However only one from the group can have shot the victim meaning that only one person be guilty of murder.

Why the other "friednd" carried a gun I don't know.

Did you know about the quarrel?

Did you know that your friend was carrying a gun?

Did you know or have an idea about why your friend was carrying a gun?

Did you suspect anything?

Did you call the cops? If not, why not?

 

Just saying that you could not have pulled the trigger does not mean that you were not involved in some way. For instance, even if you did not pull the trigger, you may have facilitated the gun man in some way, if you had any inclination of what might be going on, such as by driving him to the location.

 

The best advice to you is to pay up, thank your lucky stars that you are not in even more trouble than you are and PICK YOUR FRIENDS BETTER IN FUTURE

[Si Thea01]

11 hours ago, Strange said:

 

You need to tell your friend to get a lawyer and you need to stop talking about this on an open forum. I know you want info but a murder charge is huge. 

 

Everyone involved, and everyone that knows anything needs to shut up and only talk to a lawyer. Nobody else. Only a lawyer. Thats what they are there for. 

 

Given they've been convicted, why would they need a lawyer? I'd say they've already been assisted in that regard.  He's only asking two questions in relation to Thai law, not about lawyers. 

[Khon Kaen Dave]

I remember the Craig and Bentley affair.Bentley was found guilty by association.An archaic law,long removed from the books.He was also mentally sub standard.There was also a lot of talk about how the police had said that they heard Bentley say "let him have it Chris"Now,it is believed that the cry from Bentley was never said.

It was on a roof top somewhere in Croydon i seem to recall.

The verdict of guilty by association was used to execute Bentley.Does Thailand have that law in use? I dont know.

[Sooo Upto Me]

14 hours ago, Berkshire said:

Your question can't be answered unless you give the full story.  The full, honest story.  But I'm pretty sure that you're going to leave out the important details.  In my home country, the term is "accomplice" or perhaps, "accessory to the crime."  And what the heck is this "friend" doing with a gun in the first place?

 

Owning or having guns is no big thing nowadays in this world.

[impulse]

2 hours ago, Morakot said:

Yes! The law in England and Wales has been particularly harsh on "joint enterprise" murders, until the landmark ruling of 2016.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35598896

 

I was pleased to read your link.  I recall a couple of years back watching a BBC documentary on guilt by association and thinking about the times growing up when crimes were committed by people in our loosely called "groups".  It was never big stuff- mostly mischief and vandalism and fighting and a couple of petty thefts.  But my life would look completely different today if I had to fill in my convictions on various job applications over the years.  And the majority of us were decent kids who just didn't know how to shake loose of ne'er do wells when we hung out together.  They'd always show up no matter where we'd get together or how secretive we'd try to be.

 

That's not to say some of the bastards don't need to fry.  But they need to be convicted on the merits of their own action.  Not what the others around them did.

Edited December 13, 2016 by impulse

[Berkshire]

3 minutes ago, Sooo Upto Me said:

 

Owning or having guns is no big thing nowadays in this world.

 

Do you carry around a gun while in Thailand?  Do you know anyone who does?  I don't, on both counts. 

[sipi]

I know nothing if local laws but I vaguely remember a case years ago in Australia when a copper (or pizzaboy?) got shot and they tried to charge everyone within a hundred miles of his murder. The question was raised "how many fingers does it take to pull a trigger?".

There were however a number of successful procecutions before it came to that.

[Jackie66]

5 hours ago, possum1931 said:

As a matter of interest, in which country did this happen?

 

Thailand, Bangkok

[Deepinthailand]

If it's already been to court and you have been found guilty can you give us dates ect so we can look it up.