As Aleppo falls, Trump faces test on posture toward Russia

[webfact]

As Aleppo falls, Trump faces test on posture toward Russia

By JOSH LEDERMAN and BRADLEY KLAPPER

 

WASHINGTON (AP) — Aleppo's fall to Syrian government forces is shaping up as the first major test of President-elect Donald Trump's desire to cooperate with Russia, whose military support has proven pivotal in Syria's civil war. The death and destruction in the city is only renewing Democratic and Republican concern with Trump's possible new path.

 

Though Trump has been vague about his plans to address this next phase in the nearly six-year-old conflict, he's suggested closer alignment between U.S. and Russian goals could be in order. His selection Tuesday of Exxon Mobil CEO Rex Tillerson, who has extensive business dealings with Russia and ties to President Vladimir Putin, fueled further speculation that Trump will pursue a rapprochement with Moscow.

 

Indeed, Trump was already trying to portray Tillerson's connections with Russia as a plus. In talking points circulated on Capitol Hill and obtained by The Associated Press, Trump's transition team said Tillerson would "work closely" with Russia on "defeating radical Islam" but would "easily challenge Russia and other countries when necessary."

 

"President Putin knows Mr. Tillerson means what he says," the talking points say.

 

A warmer relationship could alter U.S. policy on nuclear weapons, sanctions, Ukraine and innumerable other issues — but none so clearly or quickly as Syria, where President Bashar Assad's defeat of U.S.-backed rebels in Aleppo is poised to be a turning point. Assad and Russia are expected seize the moment to try to persuade the U.S. to abandon its flailing strategy of trying to prop up the rebels in their battle to oust Assad.

 

That decision will fall to Trump.

 

The president-elect has not commented or tweeted about the crisis in Aleppo and widespread fears of humanitarian disaster. Yet his previous comments on the broader conflict suggest he's more than open to a policy shift.

 

During the campaign, Trump asserted that defeating the Islamic State group in Syria, not Assad, must be the top priority, a position that mirrors Russia's.

 

"I believe we have to get ISIS. We have to worry about ISIS before we can get too much more involved," Trump said in October, using an acronym for the extremist group.

 

Prioritizing the fight against IS could put the U.S. in closer alignment with Russia's public position, in a Middle Eastern take on the adage that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." It's a point Trump appeared to make during the second presidential debate when he noted that he didn't like Assad, but added, "Assad is killing ISIS. Russia is killing ISIS."

 

And in his first days as the president-elect Trump suggested he might withdraw U.S. support for the various rebel groups that make up Assad's opposition, telling a newspaper that "we have no idea who these people are."

 

Trump's posture doesn't just buck President Barack Obama's policy, it conflicts with his party's stance, as well.

 

Trump's running mate, Vice President-elect Mike Pence, argued during the campaign that the U.S. should strike Assad's forces if needed to prevent devastation in Aleppo. Trump took the remarkable step of contradicting him. "I disagree," Trump said, and Pence quickly backed off the threat of military action.

 

Both Democratic and Republican critics say Trump's brushstroke analysis of Syria's internal conflicts paints a far rosier picture of Russia's aims than reality — and even endorses some of the propaganda Assad has used to delegitimize his opponents.

 

"Putin is a thug, a bully and a murderer, and anybody else who describes him as anything else is lying," Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said after word emerged that Trump was picking Tillerson as his chief diplomat.

 

While Moscow has attacked IS at times, the U.S. and its allies say most Russian airstrikes have targeted rebel-dominated areas where IS isn't active. American officials accuse Assad of a soft approach toward IS, and even of colluding with the group in hopes of marginalizing U.S.-backed rebels.

 

Though the U.S. under Obama has tried to work diplomatically with Russia, Syria cease-fire deals have repeatedly collapsed, with the U.S. accusing Moscow of failing to use its influence to prevent Assad from violating them. Meanwhile, Russia's military intervention has been successful in helping Assad reclaim the upper hand, making Putin a key player in Syria's future.

 

So closely aligned are Russia and Syria that it was Russia that negotiated a cease-fire to evacuate the last civilians and opposition fighters from eastern Aleppo, rebels said. The rebels had been squeezed for months into smaller and smaller areas of Aleppo. The city's status as Syria's commercial hub makes its capture a key victory for Assad.

 

As world leaders debate what to do next, all eyes are on Trump, who takes office on Jan. 20. Robert Ford, the former U.S. ambassador to Syria and a Middle East Institute scholar, said the horrifying images of suffering emanating from Syria would force Trump to outline a more detailed response.

 

"While the Trump administration may want to avoid getting into the business of regime change, it's still going to have to address what it does about grotesque violations of international humanitarian law and war crimes," said Ford. "Just saying 'we're not interested in regime change' is not a response."

 

Aligning with Russia would make it harder for the U.S. to corral the rebels' more strident supporters into supporting peace mediation. Assad foes like Turkey, Qatar and Saudi Arabia might become more inclined to give extremists advanced weaponry despite U.S. protestations.

 

Concerns that Trump may soften U.S. policy toward Russia, currently under tough U.S. sanctions over its actions in Ukraine, burgeoned during the campaign amid signs of Russian hacking of political groups. U.S. intelligence agencies now say the hacking was intended to help Trump win.

 

Those concerns grew louder still Tuesday when Trump tapped Tillerson for secretary of state despite his history of arguing against sanctions on Russia, which could affect Exxon's joint ventures with Russia's state oil company. In 2013, Putin awarded Tillerson the Order of Friendship in honor of his efforts to improve U.S.-Russia ties.

___

AP Congressional Correspondent Erica Werner contributed to this report.

 

-- © Associated Press 2016-12-14

[Emster23]

As long as Putin keeps up the flattery, Trump will be happy to continue grabbing his ankles.

[zaphod reborn]

Trump's only goal is to copy his idol, Putin, in diverting Russian oil revenues into offshore accounts.  It's nothing more than a money grab for someone who is heavily indebted to Russian bankers.

[craigt3365]

5 minutes ago, zaphod reborn said:

Trump's only goal is to copy his idol, Putin, in diverting Russian oil revenues into offshore accounts.  It's nothing more than a money grab for someone who is heavily indebted to Russian bankers.

Though this is clearly stated to be a conspiracy, and done for a laugh, as another member pointed out, there are some grains of truth here.  Scary. 

 

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/top-10-signs-that-a-us-president-is-a-russian-spy-2016-12-13

[williamgeorgeallen]

the war needs to end. assad is kicking ass. get out of the way yankies and let him finish it. 6 years of death, destruction and displacement of many thousands of people. enough is enough.

[craigt3365]

7 minutes ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

the war needs to end. assad is kicking ass. get out of the way yankies and let him finish it. 6 years of death, destruction and displacement of many thousands of people. enough is enough.

You are aware even though Aleppo has been retaken by the government forces, this war is far from over.  And Assad's army is in tatters.  Relying on outsiders for help.  Russians, Iranians, Lebanese, etc.  So maybe they should all get out of the way also so this war can stop? 

 

Proof in point is them losing Palmyra.  Great job!  Bombed the heck out of that city, then lost it again.  LOL

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/12/12/middleeast/palmyra-syria-isis-russia/

Quote

Syrian news agency SANA reported that over 4,000 militants swarmed the city from "various directions," despite having suffered heavy losses from bombardments by the Syrian air force. The Russian Defense Ministry had earlier reported that its aircraft had also taken part in the air campaign.

 

Maybe Assad should get out of the way and let the coalition take care of things. LOL

[mania]

Let Trumps answer be a quote from John Quincy Adams

 

“Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. "

 

It is about time America remembers

She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will recommend the general cause, by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example.

[craigt3365]

2 minutes ago, mania said:

Let Trumps answer be a quote from John Quincy Adams

 

“Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. "

 

It is about time America remembers

She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will recommend the general cause, by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example.

Perhaps you could come up with a quote like that for every country that's in the coalition?  LOL  There are quite a few.  For good reasons.

[mania]

1 minute ago, craigt3365 said:

Perhaps you could come up with a quote like that for every country that's in the coalition?  LOL  There are quite a few.  For good reasons.

“She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself, beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom.

 

More for you

[Grubster]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

You are aware even though Aleppo has been retaken by the government forces, this war is far from over.  And Assad's army is in tatters.  Relying on outsiders for help.  Russians, Iranians, Lebanese, etc.  So maybe they should all get out of the way also so this war can stop? 

 

Proof in point is them losing Palmyra.  Great job!  Bombed the heck out of that city, then lost it again.  LOL

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/12/12/middleeast/palmyra-syria-isis-russia/

 

Maybe Assad should get out of the way and let the coalition take care of things. LOL

The problem with your plan is how are you going to get the others to get out? Threaten them? Go to war with them?  How many lives have we saved so far by meddling in this area? I have yet to see any good come out of our meddling in any civil war.

[mettech]

The WARsay it all kill or be killed.

[craigt3365]

4 hours ago, mania said:

“She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself, beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom.

 

More for you

 

Quote

Abraham Lincoln: “Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.”

 

One reason America is great.  Seems the Syrian population agrees with this.

[craigt3365]

3 hours ago, Grubster said:

The problem with your plan is how are you going to get the others to get out? Threaten them? Go to war with them?  How many lives have we saved so far by meddling in this area? I have yet to see any good come out of our meddling in any civil war.

100% agree!  No easy answers. Except, somehow, try to rid the world of brutal dictators.  There are far to many and the average person suffers because of them.

[Grubster]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

100% agree!  No easy answers. Except, somehow, try to rid the world of brutal dictators.  There are far to many and the average person suffers because of them.

True but the last one we got rid of cost about 100,000 lives so far and still climbing. I don't think he would have killed near that many and none of ours.  Why are we so sure our way of life is the best. I see Democracy and Capitalism heading downhill fast with greed leading the way. I bet if you asked Iraqi people if they wanted Saddam back they would say hell yes.

[craigt3365]

19 minutes ago, Grubster said:

True but the last one we got rid of cost about 100,000 lives so far and still climbing. I don't think he would have killed near that many and none of ours.  Why are we so sure our way of life is the best. I see Democracy and Capitalism heading downhill fast with greed leading the way. I bet if you asked Iraqi people if they wanted Saddam back they would say hell yes.

And yes other dictators have been removed without so many problems.  Iraq was a disaster.  So is Syria and the dictator is still there. Worst humanitarian disaster since WW2.  Hard to say the alternative would have been worse.

[mania]

6 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

 

 

One reason America is great.  Seems the Syrian population agrees with this.

Abraham Lincoln: “Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.”

 

Yes quote Abe Lincoln if you like but realize what/where he was talking about

 

Also consider Abe was president from 1860 till 1865

 

At that time the US population was 31 million..............a tenth of what it is now

During Abe's time 620,000  men died in his civil war more than in all other American wars from the American Revolution through the Korean War combined

But it was "our" war not a foreign shore of non-US threatening forces.

 

Lastly what the Syrian Population believes/agrees with is theirs to believe.......

Most Americans  (living in America) still believe the following  (albeit our previous govt was driven by cries such as yours did not)

Same Adams  speech I quoted from earlier

"She has… without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations, while asserting and maintaining her own.

She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when the conflict has been for principles to which she clings."

 

 But if you feel very inclined....I know for a fact Syrian rebels pay well for soldiers of fortune or conscious bothered such as yourself ....as surely such strong belief

are backed with such strong actions/participation  & not just expect our sons & daughters to go & fulfill your beliefs

 

[Scott]

Off-topic posts removed.   Please stay on topic and be aware that you are under no obligation to respond to other members and if you do, please stick to the parts that are relevant.   Not doing so will result in your post being removed.    It will be off-topic.  

 

 

[craigt3365]

5 hours ago, mania said:

 

Yes quote Abe Lincoln if you like but realize what/where he was talking about

 

Also consider Abe was president from 1860 till 1865

 

At that time the US population was 31 million..............a tenth of what it is now

During Abe's time 620,000  men died in his civil war more than in all other American wars from the American Revolution through the Korean War combined

But it was "our" war not a foreign shore of non-US threatening forces.

 

Lastly what the Syrian Population believes/agrees with is theirs to believe.......

Most Americans  (living in America) still believe the following  (albeit our previous govt was driven by cries such as yours did not)

Same Adams  speech I quoted from earlier

"She has… without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations, while asserting and maintaining her own.

She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when the conflict has been for principles to which she clings."

 

 But if you feel very inclined....I know for a fact Syrian rebels pay well for soldiers of fortune or conscious bothered such as yourself ....as surely such strong belief

are backed with such strong actions/participation  & not just expect our sons & daughters to go & fulfill your beliefs

 

That's from John Quincy Adams in 1821, before Abe and at a time the US was even smaller.  Hardly relevant now, nor to Syria. LOL  When you make quotes, but to give a link to them as a reference. 

 

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/jqadams.htm

 

[mania]

18 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

That's from John Quincy Adams in 1821, before Abe and at a time the US was even smaller.  Hardly relevant now, nor to Syria. LOL  When you make quotes, but to give a link to them as a reference. 

 

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/jqadams.htm

 

Hello.......... Same as your Abe Quote ...I said who I was quoting

 

Let Trumps answer be a quote from John Quincy Adams

 

Hardly relevant?? I see so due to age/time/size etc etc  I guess you also consider the Constitution/Bill Of Rights etc...all irrelevant right?

 

Ok I give up carry on & be sure to put yourself or your children  where your mouth states "we" should be

[mrwebb8825]

OK, and back on topic - Trump stated from the beginning he thought it was stupid to spend time and resources building any other country except America.

Pulling resources from the rebels would eliminate some of said waste in spending.

[craigt3365]

25 minutes ago, mrwebb8825 said:

OK, and back on topic - Trump stated from the beginning he thought it was stupid to spend time and resources building any other country except America.

Pulling resources from the rebels would eliminate some of said waste in spending.

The reality is, we live in a global economy now.  What happens in one country, can and does have a huge impact on others.  It's impossible to just concentrate on your own country's problems.  Nobody does business just with inside their own borders.  We do rely on global trade.

 

Trump said many things during his election.  And he's backed down on a few already.

[dunroaming]

For once I think this is something that Trump would be advised not to comment on.  It is unlikely that he will condemn Russia and Syria as the majority of the western world has done.  It is immensely complicated and he would only put his ill-informed foot in it once again.