Reincarnation

[bangkokrick]

Does the fact that Thais believe in reincarnation have any bearing on the way that they live their lives?

I remember the first time that i came to Thailand during Songkran and i had a fantastic 4 days getting wet in Pattaya and Bangkok. Pardon the expression. I was later shocked to see in the press that hundreds of people lost their lives during that 4 day period.

I read with interest many of the posts on this forum concerning Tuk Tuk drivers and other public service workers who allegedly so easily pick up weapons to make a point.

I suppose that if you believe that you will have another life that this one maybe not so important. Whereas we in the West believe in the one strike and your out theory.

[Robski]

Yes I think you're right, when it comes to forward planning.

Westerners see it as essential to plan well ahead because you only get 'one bite of the cherry' and Thais look for more short term goals because if they don't get it right now they can do it next time around.

Sorry for generalizing I know how that sounds. I went in a visa run recently and the minibus had a flat tyre 'cos it had a nail sticking out of it, we kept on telling the driver, but he just didn't seem to think it was important, so it was either a. that he didn't value his life as much as us or b. that he would lose face by admitting the bus had a flat or c. that he just didn't think it was important. or d. all of the above.

Anyway we all mutinied and the guy went and got the tyre fixed, but even then when some of the passengers tried to explain to him that they had felt their lives where in danger, he still seemed to feel that we where stupid to worry about such a thing (that such a thing being death or serious injury)

Of course I could be totally wrong, in which case I want to be reincarnated as an Otter, don't you just love them?

Edited December 6, 2006 by Robski

[goldfish]

I actually feel you are thinking too deeply here, thais dont generally go in for 'thinking too much'. Yes, buddhists believe in re-birth but thais generally live for the moment, and the next life is way too far away.

Also karma is more accurately defined as how your actions in this life affect your re-birth, once again too far away to worry about.

Remember, this is just a generalization

[bizman]

The Thais are budhhists. As such they believe they earn "merits" during each life. They progress through these lives by earning these merits with each life getting them nearer to the ultimate "buddha" status. There believe is that there is reincarnation. This is why you will see thiefs, prostitutes, or any others stopping to pray at every shrine regardless of the size.

[Thaddeus]

Anyway we all mutinied and the guy went and got the tyre fixed,

How much did it cost?

"A stitch in time, saves nine" probably doesn't translate that well.

[Artisan]

I must be mixing with a different type of Buddhist as my Thai wife, her family (except her elderly mother) and her friends have all admitted that they don't believe in re-incarnation. Maybe it's just the older Thai people who hold on to this belief.

[Galong]

I can't get my head around why they rape the environment if they think they're coming back. Why would anyone want to come back to a planet where the air isn't fit for breathing, there are no trees, no coral, no clean water, no animals, all of the birds are in cages and so on.

Besides, Buddhism at the advanced levels is about the abolishment of desire and a personal identity. Thais are 100% into desire and very much into personal identity (and good luck), the desire to be rich which is the opposite of what Buddhism is about. The eradication of the concept of a personal identity. That is the way to end suffering and to feel affraid of death. In light of this, the idea of 'losing face' is not in line with Buddhism.

But then again, I've never met a Thai who has read any of the source text. They seem perfectly content to let a monk tell them what to think and do.

I don't mean to sound like I'm slamming Thai Buddhism, but having a degree in Eastern Philosophy I find it very difficult to see any relationship between what is written and what is practiced... just like most other organized/institutionalized religions.

Peace. :-)

[kmart]

There is a collective apathy and lackadaisical fatalism towards any sort of planning ahead or forward thinking that might eliminate the chance of accidents / mishaps, etc.

The waste here is phenomenal! Waste of human / natural resources; time; money; etc. It beggars belief sometimes. I've lost staff and colleagues due to just stupid accidents that would have easily avoided with just a smidge of common sense or forethought, and it really rankles me that other colleagues just accept this as normality.

[chownah]

Not all Buddhists believe in the kind of rebirth that is being discussed here.

Chownah

[Colonel_Mustard]

Does the fact that Thais believe in reincarnation

Thais (Buddhist ones anyway) generally believe in rebirth not reincarnation.

[bangkokrick]

Yes I think you're right, when it comes to forward planning.

Westerners see it as essential to plan well ahead because you only get 'one bite of the cherry' and Thais look for more short term goals because if they don't get it right now they can do it next time around.

Sorry for generalizing I know how that sounds. I went in a visa run recently and the minibus had a flat tyre 'cos it had a nail sticking out of it, we kept on telling the driver, but he just didn't seem to think it was important, so it was either a. that he didn't value his life as much as us or b. that he would lose face by admitting the bus had a flat or c. that he just didn't think it was important. or d. all of the above.

Anyway we all mutinied and the guy went and got the tyre fixed, but even then when some of the passengers tried to explain to him that they had felt their lives where in danger, he still seemed to feel that we where stupid to worry about such a thing (that such a thing being death or serious injury)

Of course I could be totally wrong, in which case I want to be reincarnated as an Otter, don't you just love them?

I don't think that vehicle maintenance comes very high on their 'things to do today list'. Just look at the state of some of the vehicles on the specifically the kamakaze green buses of Bangkok. You really have to believe in a second life to get on board one of those.

[bangkokrick]

Does the fact that Thais believe in reincarnation

Thais (Buddhist ones anyway) generally believe in rebirth not reincarnation.

Hi Colonel,

Please will you enlarge on this point.

Cheers Rick

[Buckwheat]

Having been used and abused in this life, I hope to be reincarnated as a Thailand Elite Card.... I'll NEVER be used again.

Edited December 7, 2006 by Buckwheat

[bangkokrick]

Having been used and abused in this life, I hope to be reincarnated as a Thailand Elite Card.... I'll NEVER be used again.

[Johpa]

The Thais are budhhists. As such they believe they earn "merits" during each life. They progress through these lives by earning these merits with each life getting them nearer to the ultimate "buddha" status. There believe is that there is reincarnation. This is why you will see thiefs, prostitutes, or any others stopping to pray at every shrine regardless of the size.

My experience is that Thais are first and foremost animists. Over this they wear a veneer of Buddhism. Surely as they approach old age they tend to wish to make more merit (tham bun) for the next life (chaat naa) and will perhaps make greater efforts to attend and to contrbute to temple affairs, but I just haven't seen many Thais being overly concerned with the reincarnation aspect of the next life. Besides, in Buddhism, there is no re-incarnation in the western sense of being able to somehow connect to a past life as their is no reincarnation of the soul.

[Artisan]

Thais (Buddhist ones anyway) generally believe in rebirth not reincarnation.

Rebirth...reincarnation....whatever. SAME SAME and NOT different.

[Colonel_Mustard]

Does the fact that Thais believe in reincarnation

Thais (Buddhist ones anyway) generally believe in rebirth not reincarnation.

Hi Colonel,

Please will you enlarge on this point.

Cheers Rick

There's a reasonably clear explanations at http://www.geocities.com/dharmawood/reincarn_v_rebirth.htm

Quoted from the above site:

The doctrine of reincarnation, also referred to as transmigration, is taught by Hinduism, Jainism and Gnostic Christianity. It's main postulate is that there is an indestructible, eternal, personal element that travels from one life to the next. This element is called atman in the Hindu religion, jiva in the Jain faith and soul by Gnostic Christianity. Reincarnation assumes identity between the occupant of this body and, when this body dies, the occupant of the following body.

In contrast, Buddhism teaches the doctrine of rebirth. Between a series of lifetimes there is a relationship of causality, not of identity. To make this more clear, let's use the example of the falling dominos. If I place a series of dominos standing up in line next to each other, and I strike the first one to make it fall down, this causes the second one to fall down, and the next, until the last in line falls down. The fall of the first domino is the cause of the fall of the last one, but there is not a shared identity between the first and the last domino.

[Colonel_Mustard]

Thais (Buddhist ones anyway) generally believe in rebirth not reincarnation.

Rebirth...reincarnation....whatever. SAME SAME and NOT different.

Fair enough but personally I have always seen a difference. Reincarnation would seem to depend on the need for a 'self' whereas one of the main ideas of Buddhism is 'no self'. To be honest I have never read a book on Buddhism that mentioned reincarnation, all have always used rebirth but I do accept that most people use the terms interchangeably.

[Artisan]

My reference says:

Reincarnation: The Hindu or Buddhist doctrine that person may be reborn successively into one of five classes of living beings (god or human or animal or hungry ghost or denizen of hel_l) depending on the person's own actions

[bangkokrick]

Does the fact that Thais believe in reincarnation

Thais (Buddhist ones anyway) generally believe in rebirth not reincarnation.

Hi Colonel,

Please will you enlarge on this point.

Cheers Rick

There's a reasonably clear explanations at http://www.geocities.com/dharmawood/reincarn_v_rebirth.htm

Quoted from the above site:

The doctrine of reincarnation, also referred to as transmigration, is taught by Hinduism, Jainism and Gnostic Christianity. It's main postulate is that there is an indestructible, eternal, personal element that travels from one life to the next. This element is called atman in the Hindu religion, jiva in the Jain faith and soul by Gnostic Christianity. Reincarnation assumes identity between the occupant of this body and, when this body dies, the occupant of the following body.

In contrast, Buddhism teaches the doctrine of rebirth. Between a series of lifetimes there is a relationship of causality, not of identity. To make this more clear, let's use the example of the falling dominos. If I place a series of dominos standing up in line next to each other, and I strike the first one to make it fall down, this causes the second one to fall down, and the next, until the last in line falls down. The fall of the first domino is the cause of the fall of the last one, but there is not a shared identity between the first and the last domino.

Great explanation Colonel. Thanks for the contribution. I am still trying to understand why the Thai people in general appear to be so happy on a daily basis, but seem to look at life in a fatalistic way.

[Neeranam]

The main thing I see is the fact that they don't believe that they can right a wrong. ie if they do something bad, they can't do something good to cancel it out. They must suffer the consequences of that bad action, so why admit it, make ammends for it etc.

[Rdrokit]

First I have to agree with Colonel Mustard on rebirth and reincarnation. In Buddhism there ar 5 or 6 levels of rebirth and what realm you are reborn in is deceided by what you do in your previous life. That is why reglious Buddhists make Merits and practice Perfections. But like in any religion there are different levels of devotion. How many Christians can even quote the Ten Commandments or practice them? Same happens with Buddists in Thailand.

[bangkokrick]

The main thing I see is the fact that they don't believe that they can right a wrong. ie if they do something bad, they can't do something good to cancel it out. They must suffer the consequences of that bad action, so why admit it, make ammends for it etc.

Again ths very fatalistic. I have done something wrong so what the hel_l i might as well carry on doing things wrong because now it's too late. I find this a very strange way to think, but this might explain the actions of the Tuk Tuk drivers.

I agree on the 10 commandments as personally i cant quote them therefore i assume that i do not live by them. I like the idea of having a second life though albeit as an otter!

[jamman]

Does the fact that Thais believe in reincarnation have any bearing on the way that they live their lives?

I remember the first time that i came to Thailand during Songkran and i had a fantastic 4 days getting wet in Pattaya and Bangkok. Pardon the expression. I was later shocked to see in the press that hundreds of people lost their lives during that 4 day period.

I read with interest many of the posts on this forum concerning Tuk Tuk drivers and other public service workers who allegedly so easily pick up weapons to make a point.

I suppose that if you believe that you will have another life that this one maybe not so important. Whereas we in the West believe in the one strike and your out theory.

I think reincarnation doesn't quite enter into it. They just don't give a care.

They don't assign value to life, in the same way we do.

Westerners are on the whole more passionate - and our neurotic clingings, our passionate interests, keep us on the edge of our movie theater seat, and we see everyone as equally engaged.

Thais are less engaged. Less stressed, less focused on worthy or dead end aims, and just laissez faire. Whatever.

Edited December 7, 2006 by jamman

[Robski]

I remember the first time that i came to Thailand during Songkran and i had a fantastic 4 days getting wet in Pattaya and Bangkok. Pardon the expression. I was later shocked to see in the press that hundreds of people lost their lives during that 4 day period.

Is that really true? hundreds of people? I can imagine one or two, maybe somebody losing a contact lens and a few bloody noses, but hey hundreds dead, where can I find stories on this?

[lannarebirth]

I remember the first time that i came to Thailand during Songkran and i had a fantastic 4 days getting wet in Pattaya and Bangkok. Pardon the expression. I was later shocked to see in the press that hundreds of people lost their lives during that 4 day period.

Is that really true? hundreds of people? I can imagine one or two, maybe somebody losing a contact lens and a few bloody noses, but hey hundreds dead, where can I find stories on this?

Every year it seems 700, 800, 900 die during Somgkran from alcohol related vehicle accidents and other stupid stuff.

[November Rain]

I think you're all correct in the fact that Thais seem to be more fatalistic in general & in the abstract "I might die from this", but I think that their terror of death is every bit as real as us farangs when confronted with it.

My (Thai) boyfriend died this year after a short illness. He was in a coma for much of his illness, but he did realise at one point that he might die. He was on a respirator, so couldn't speak & (unlike the soaps) was too weak to signal or write, but the terror in his eyes when the realisation hit him was something that will haunt me for the rest of my life.

[Robski]

I remember the first time that i came to Thailand during Songkran and i had a fantastic 4 days getting wet in Pattaya and Bangkok. Pardon the expression. I was later shocked to see in the press that hundreds of people lost their lives during that 4 day period.

Is that really true? hundreds of people? I can imagine one or two, maybe somebody losing a contact lens and a few bloody noses, but hey hundreds dead, where can I find stories on this?

Every year it seems 700, 800, 900 die during Somgkran from alcohol related vehicle accidents and other stupid stuff.

Wow, that is unreal... it makes me think of something that I was talking about on another thread, it's cultural relativism really, am I trying to impose my values by thinking that such loss of life should be avoidable, that education and responsibility is part of progress, and I assume that other people should hold those same values. ?

A bit confusing I know and of course I know that different cultures have different values, but from the point of view of a human rather than a westerner, why shouldn't I want people to have more responsibility for their own and others lives. surely that is progress.

Edited December 7, 2006 by Robski

[Artisan]

I think reincarnation doesn't quite enter into it. They just don't give a care.

They don't assign value to life, in the same way we do.

That's just not true and that's an insult to the Thai people. Live in Thailand longer and you might be more understanding of their ways.

[lannarebirth]

I remember the first time that i came to Thailand during Songkran and i had a fantastic 4 days getting wet in Pattaya and Bangkok. Pardon the expression. I was later shocked to see in the press that hundreds of people lost their lives during that 4 day period.

Is that really true? hundreds of people? I can imagine one or two, maybe somebody losing a contact lens and a few bloody noses, but hey hundreds dead, where can I find stories on this?

Every year it seems 700, 800, 900 die during Somgkran from alcohol related vehicle accidents and other stupid stuff.

Wow, that is unreal... it makes me think of something that I was talking about on another thread, it's cultural relativism really, am I trying to impose my values by thinking that such loss of life should be avoidable, that education and responsibility is part of progress, and I assume that other people should hold those same values. ?

A bit confusing I know and of course I know that different cultures have different values, but from the point of view of a human rather than a westerner, why shouldn't I want people to have more responsibility for their own and others lives. surely that is progress.

You can see past years Songkran fatalities here:

http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&lr=...ch=thaivisa.com