Forum turned upside down?

[webfact]

Palestinian president hails historic UN condemnation of Israel

Seamus Kearney

 

 

The Palestinian President has given his first public reaction to the UN Security Council resolution that has angered Israel.

 

Mahmoud Abbas has praised the UN’s historic condemnation of Israel’s building of settlements on land claimed by the Palestinians, saying he hopes it will quickly lead to a timetable for independence.

 

Abbas said: “We think and believe that the UN resolution lays a clear foundation for Israel and the entire world that they must start negotiations on the basis of such resolutions and they should not reject the international legitimacy that was clearly mentioned in the resolution.”

 

The passing of the text was possible when the US broke with past practice and decided to abstain during voting in the Security Council.

 

But despite the UN saying that Israeli settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem represent a “flagrant violation” of international law, Israel is reportedly still going ahead with plans for further settlements.

 

The country’s prime minister, Benyamin Netanyahu, says his government “cannot and will not” accept the UN resolution.

 

 

-- © Copyright Euronews 2016-12-28

[Ulysses G.]

Praise this betrayal while you can. There is a new sheriff in town soon and he will back American allies.

 

"Today's passage of an ill-conceived resolution on Israeli settlements marks another shameful chapter in the bizarre anti-Israel history of the United Nations," said Sen. John McCain (R-Arizona), chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. "The abstention of the United States has made us complicit in this outrageous attack, and marks a troubling departure from our nation's long, bipartisan history of defending our ally Israel in the United Nations."

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/obama-israel-settlement-un-resolution-232953

[Jingthing]

Can't blame Abbas for being happy about this, but it changes nothing on the ground, and arguably is going to make things worse. 

[ezzra]

Somehow, the UN thinks that by force , threats and manipulations you can force Israel into doing something which will in grave danger it's very existence,  and the more pressure you put on Israel the more they will resist any attempts to push it into a corner,

 

There's no solution to the Palestinian problem until the world will start to think like Israel and walk a mile in Israel's shoes....

[Ulysses G.]

The more Islamic terrorist attacks there - are all over the world - the more common people will identify with Israel and despise the liberal elites who are out to undermine them.

[Jingthing]

Yes, other Palestinian political leader ...  also happy.

Quote

 

Hamas welcomes UN vote on Israel settlements

Islamic Jihad also celebrates Security Council resolution, saying it will lead to Israel’s ‘isolation’ and ‘boycott’

 

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-welcomes-un-vote-on-israel-settlements/

[Elfin]

Another small win for Palestine as inch by inch, step by step, the world is realising the atrocities being committed by 60 years of occupation and illegal settlements by Israel against the Palestinians. Well done to the US for finally showing some nads in the UN too.

The BDS campaign also is growing in strength and is one of many organisations I support in the quest for a free Palestine, meaning that indeed isolation and boycotts are what lie in the future for Israel.

BDS. 

Edited December 28, 2016 by Elfin

[yardrunner]

3 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

Praise this betrayal while you can. There is a new sheriff in town soon and he will back American allies.

 

"Today's passage of an ill-conceived resolution on Israeli settlements marks another shameful chapter in the bizarre anti-Israel history of the United Nations," said Sen. John McCain (R-Arizona), chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. "The abstention of the United States has made us complicit in this outrageous attack, and marks a troubling departure from our nation's long, bipartisan history of defending our ally Israel in the United Nations."

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/obama-israel-settlement-un-resolution-232953

The sooner no country has the power of veto the better, the USA did not betray Israel it finally  realised that Israel has become a pariah state under its far right government and that it must rein in its behavior if their is to be any chance of peace

[yardrunner]

3 hours ago, ezzra said:

Somehow, the UN thinks that by force , threats and manipulations you can force Israel into doing something which will in grave danger it's very existence,  and the more pressure you put on Israel the more they will resist any attempts to push it into a corner,

 

There's no solution to the Palestinian problem until the world will start to think like Israel and walk a mile in Israel's shoes....

And Israel thinks that by illegal occupation and theft the it will get all that it wants, and complains when it is condemned for its actions, Israel needs to take the blinkers off

[Elfin]

Just in from nine.com.au :Bibi says to the New Zealand Foreign Minister Murray McCully " "If you continue to promote this resolution from our point of view it will be a declaration of war. It will rupture the relations and there will be consequences."

 

It looks like he is going to be Wyle E Coyote again with a cartoon picture of a bomb??

 

President Abbass is very pleased with all the support he is getting.
 

[notmyself]

2 hours ago, Elfin said:

Just in from nine.com.au :Bibi says to the New Zealand Foreign Minister Murray McCully " "If you continue to promote this resolution from our point of view it will be a declaration of war. It will rupture the relations and there will be consequences."

 

 

Now listen to this you squeely pigs. This IS a consequence of your very own actions.

[geriatrickid]

5 hours ago, Elfin said:

Another small win for Palestine as inch by inch, step by step, the world is realising the atrocities being committed by 60 years of occupation and illegal settlements by Israel against the Palestinians. Well done to the US for finally showing some nads in the UN too.

The BDS campaign also is growing in strength and is one of many organisations I support in the quest for a free Palestine, meaning that indeed isolation and boycotts are what lie in the future for Israel.

BDS. 

 

 That's nice. Do you support basic freedoms and liberties in the Hamas and PLA controlled regions? You know, things like habeas corpus,  freedom of expression, freedom of the news media, women's rights, and LGBT rights? How about transparency in respect to the monies given to Hamas and the PLA? I suggest you give some of your time to those  things,  because your beloved arabs do not.

 

And if you are truly in support of  the  boycott of Israel, have you stopped using anything that  incorporates Israel  intellectual capital? You know  silly stuff like mobile phone technology, medications, paricularly those that address resistant bacterial infections, and cancer. Have you urged any of the local hospitals to give up their  trauma care protocols for burn patients, and that includes the initial care treatments and medications.  I could go on, but please start with those first. The easiest one is pediatric poisoning treatments. Please organize a boycott of all children's hospitals which use these products.

 

[dexterm]

9 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

The more Islamic terrorist attacks there - are all over the world - the more common people will identify with Israel and despise the liberal elites who are out to undermine them.

Completely off topic. Your usual attempt to deflect.

No mention of Islamic or any other kind of terrorist attacks in the OP.

Edited December 28, 2016 by dexterm
typo

[dexterm]

9 hours ago, ezzra said:

Somehow, the UN thinks that by force , threats and manipulations you can force Israel into doing something which will in grave danger it's very existence,  and the more pressure you put on Israel the more they will resist any attempts to push it into a corner,

 

There's no solution to the Palestinian problem until the world will start to think like Israel and walk a mile in Israel's shoes....

Precisely the opposite in fact.

 

The UN resolution is encouraging Israel to move towards a two state solution.

It is a one state solution that Israel seems determined to achieve with its continued settlement expansion, which will ultimately prove its demise as a predominantly Jewish state. That would be no bad thing IMO.

 

Netanyahu is shooting himself in the foot.

[optad]

5 hours ago, yardrunner said:

The sooner no country has the power of veto the better, the USA did not betray Israel it finally  realised that Israel has become a pariah state under its far right government and that it must rein in its behavior if their is to be any chance of peace

I would rather see a solution happen with the SC vetoes powers in place.

 

This is almost a cold  war vestige and Israel behaving like the world has not changed./ Israelis have forgotten their sense of century being so defiant. Trump is not the savior they think he is but if momentum continues and his presidency expires in 4 years Israel might be very friendless. Certainly, Israeli has garnered affection in this passage.

 

 

[Morch]

11 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

Praise this betrayal while you can. There is a new sheriff in town soon and he will back American allies.

 

"Today's passage of an ill-conceived resolution on Israeli settlements marks another shameful chapter in the bizarre anti-Israel history of the United Nations," said Sen. John McCain (R-Arizona), chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. "The abstention of the United States has made us complicit in this outrageous attack, and marks a troubling departure from our nation's long, bipartisan history of defending our ally Israel in the United Nations."

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/obama-israel-settlement-un-resolution-232953

 

The "new sheriff" slogan is cute. Backing American allies? That's the same Trump who doubted NATO's relevance, complained about it and other allies not pulling their fare share, suggested Japan and South Korea should handle more of their defense, and favored playing with the Russian/Syrian team (a bit contrary to supporting the Kurds).

[Morch]

11 hours ago, ezzra said:

Somehow, the UN thinks that by force , threats and manipulations you can force Israel into doing something which will in grave danger it's very existence,  and the more pressure you put on Israel the more they will resist any attempts to push it into a corner,

 

There's no solution to the Palestinian problem until the world will start to think like Israel and walk a mile in Israel's shoes....

 

How does abandoning (or at least, not extending) the illegal settlements constitute a "grave danger" to Israel's "very existence"? Israel existed just fine without the illegal settlements or the West Bank for quite a while.

[Morch]

11 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

The more Islamic terrorist attacks there - are all over the world - the more common people will identify with Israel and despise the liberal elites who are out to undermine them.

 

That might be, but it's not as if all attacks are religiously motivated, nor does the end result (attackers shot, often young, sometimes female) do a whole lot of good for Israel's image.

[Morch]

7 hours ago, Elfin said:

Another small win for Palestine as inch by inch, step by step, the world is realising the atrocities being committed by 60 years of occupation and illegal settlements by Israel against the Palestinians. Well done to the US for finally showing some nads in the UN too.

The BDS campaign also is growing in strength and is one of many organisations I support in the quest for a free Palestine, meaning that indeed isolation and boycotts are what lie in the future for Israel.

BDS. 

 

I believe the word "atrocities" does not, in fact, appear in the resolution. Over the top stuff like that may serve as as propaganda, but does little for credibility. Same goes for ignoring the part played by the Palestinians in this conflict, which is hardly the meek of the earth.

 

The BDS campaign, for all the hot air issued, is not very effectual, and is likely to remain so. What it does succeed in creating further alienation and antagonism, while serving as a convenient bogeyman for the Israeli government. Without multiple government level participation, such things are little more than publicity stunts. And no, it is unlikely that effective sanctions will materialize in the near future.

[CharlieK]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

Precisely the opposite in fact.

 

The UN resolution is encouraging Israel to move towards a two state solution.

It is a one state solution that Israel seems determined to achieve with its continued settlement expansion, which will ultimately prove its demise as a predominantly Jewish state. That would be no bad thing IMO.

 

Netanyahu is shooting himself in the foot.

Any one state solution would not include Palestinians. The palestinians would in effect be stateless, not under Israeli control.   

[Morch]

7 hours ago, yardrunner said:

The sooner no country has the power of veto the better, the USA did not betray Israel it finally  realised that Israel has become a pariah state under its far right government and that it must rein in its behavior if their is to be any chance of peace

 

Without veto power, the UNSC will turn to be a copy of the UNGA - meaning, even more ineffectual and prone to pressure by interest groups. It would also be unrealistic to expect that that stronger countries will let other, weaker countries, dictate their policies. The only way countries such as the US, Russia or the PRC can be moved to do something is by agreement or by diplomatic dealings. It is not that the veto power is a good thing, just that without it the whole operation is likely to collapse. And as much as the UN is an ineffectual body, not having it could make things worse.

 

Fantasies aside, Israel is not a pariah state, and is not shunned by most countries. If some posters have trouble accepting it, they are welcome to check whether their own home countries maintain diplomatic and economic (not to mention other areas) relations with Israel.

 

Peace is not a one way street, and Israel's actions being worthy of condemnation still does not make them the only element preventing a resolution of the conflict.

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

Any one state solution would not include Palestinians. The palestinians would in effect be stateless, not under Israeli control.   

 

And you opine this based on....?

[CharlieK]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

And you opine this based on....?

common sense. 

 

 

[Morch]

1 minute ago, CharlieK said:

common sense. 

 

 

 

That would involve a measure of realism, which does not feature in your post. There are no concrete plans to create, one way or another, a one state solutions, and no accepted formulations on which form it will take, or what it would entail. Stating one's opinion is one thing, presenting it as a fact is another.

[CharlieK]

Just now, Morch said:

 

That would involve a measure of realism, which does not feature in your post. There are no concrete plans to create, one way or another, a one state solutions, and no accepted formulations on which form it will take, or what it would entail. Stating one's opinion is one thing, presenting it as a fact is another.

 

Tell that to Dexterm!

[Morch]

7 hours ago, Elfin said:

Just in from nine.com.au :Bibi says to the New Zealand Foreign Minister Murray McCully " "If you continue to promote this resolution from our point of view it will be a declaration of war. It will rupture the relations and there will be consequences."

 

It looks like he is going to be Wyle E Coyote again with a cartoon picture of a bomb??

 

President Abbass is very pleased with all the support he is getting.
 

 

It's even worse, actually. McCully visited Israel about a month ago, during the visit discussing a much more balanced resolution draft he wished to push forward. Netanyahu rejected that one, and got a worse result with the new version. Yet another diplomatic failure which could have been mitigated.

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

 

Tell that to Dexterm!

 

My differences with Dexterm are neither new or a secret, and you can rest assured I will be getting to his posts in good time (overseeing marination of pork chops and other anti-vegetarian fare). That still doesn't make what you posted any more substantiated, though.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, dexterm said:

Completely off topic. Your usual attempt to deflect.

No mention of Islamic or any other kind of terrorist attacks in the OP.

 

That doesn't mean that they do not exist, though. And they do exist in the context of this conflict. Trying to wish them away will not make all actions taken by Palestinian righteous.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, optad said:

I would rather see a solution happen with the SC vetoes powers in place.

 

This is almost a cold  war vestige and Israel behaving like the world has not changed./ Israelis have forgotten their sense of century being so defiant. Trump is not the savior they think he is but if momentum continues and his presidency expires in 4 years Israel might be very friendless. Certainly, Israeli has garnered affection in this passage.

 

 

 

Most politicians in democratic systems do not operate or think in terms of time frames exceeding four years. Often even less, as there are by-elections, next term campaigns and a host of political situations requiring immediate attention. This leads to things being "managed" from day to day, so to speak, while  domestic considerations take the front seat to statesmanship.

 

It should be pointed out that the current momentum, globally, is actually rather favorable to Netanyahu's position (which is not, by the way, quite as hardcore right wing as some suggest, but more inline with paragraph above). Right wing, isolationist, and anti-Muslim forces are on the rise in quite a few countries across the world and Europe. Even if this does not translate to outright support, it could spell easing of diplomatic pressure.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Morch

[dexterm]

37 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

That doesn't mean that they do not exist, though. And they do exist in the context of this conflict. Trying to wish them away will not make all actions taken by Palestinian righteous.

That doesn't mean that extremist Jewish nationalist settler violence does not exist in the context of this conflict either. The point is that both subjects don't get anything remotely like a mention in the OP. Therefore it's a deliberate attempt to deflect.

 

I'm not trying to wish anything away....wish all terrorism ended. Just trying to stay on topic.