Relations between Obama, Netanyahu camps hit rock bottom

[craigt3365]

1 hour ago, ezzra said:

There's not another country in this wide world that it's very existence is at perils

any given moment, With Hezbollah in the north with it's formidable and well trained

army and 10 of thousand or mid and long range rockets aim at Israel,

Hamas in the south with it's own menacing army of terrorists and huge stockpile

of missiles and rockets,

The threats from ISIOL in the Sini desert to burn Israel to the ground,

several splinter terrorist groups to close to the Syrian Israel borders lobbing

rockets on villages and towns,

The Palestinian  with their own suicide army of adults and youngsters, bombing

and knifing their way into mayhem and carnage,

Now imagine you living in such environments of death at any day and time, than you'll

have an idea what's like to be an Israeli....

Understood! Still doesn't give them the right to illegally build in contested land.

[Revolutionary]

Seems to me some of you people need to do a bit of history research. Israel was founded by the western powers in the true belief that it would not survive. On the day the new state of Israel was declared there was open warfare with all the neighboring countries and Israel survived. In the 60's again the bordering countries attacked Israel. They were destroyed by Israel and Cairo itself was near conquered. After this Israel seized the West Bank as it was a strategic location. If Israel had not been attacked the West Bank would still be outside Israel. On all the occasions it was not Israel who instigated the violence. Palestine even now continues to launch rockets into Israel and when Israel retaliated they were portrayed as the aggressor. Time to take a reality check. There is one simple statement to remember in the Middle East. If all the Arab states laid down their arms there would be no more war in the Middle East. If Israel laid down their arms there would be no more Israel.

[xylophone]

11 minutes ago, Revolutionary said:

Israel was founded by the western powers

 

And that's what I really don't get about this whole mess........what right did they have to enact this and form a state when there wasn't one previously?

 

 

[dexterm]

11 minutes ago, Revolutionary said:

Seems to me some of you people need to do a bit of history research. Israel was founded by the western powers in the true belief that it would not survive. On the day the new state of Israel was declared there was open warfare with all the neighboring countries and Israel survived. In the 60's again the bordering countries attacked Israel. They were destroyed by Israel and Cairo itself was near conquered. After this Israel seized the West Bank as it was a strategic location. If Israel had not been attacked the West Bank would still be outside Israel. On all the occasions it was not Israel who instigated the violence. Palestine even now continues to launch rockets into Israel and when Israel retaliated they were portrayed as the aggressor. Time to take a reality check. There is one simple statement to remember in the Middle East. If all the Arab states laid down their arms there would be no more war in the Middle East. If Israel laid down their arms there would be no more Israel.

The same old myths and cliches recycled from a one sided narrative that have been debunked many times on this forum. Such strong opinions from new member...hmm!

 

I suggest readers view www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7FML0wzJ6A for a more balanced side of the story.

 

With Trump as President and Obama long gone, you may have to shelve the old schticks critical of a two state solution, and find some new ones to rationalize a 100% land grab of historic Palestine.

[Ulysses G.]

8 minutes ago, xylophone said:

 

And that's what I really don't get about this whole mess........what right did they have to enact this and form a state when there wasn't one previously?

 

 

 

There was no state there at all and the Arabs were waging combat on the Jews. The UN came up with a solution to form a state for both peoples, but the Palestinian Arabs refused and declared war on the new state of Israel instead. Israel responded and kicked the butts of 5 Arab nations that backed the Palestinians up - it is history. Turnabout is fair play.

 

Edited December 30, 2016 by Ulysses G.

[xylophone]

5 minutes ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

There was no state there at all and the Arabs were waging combat on the Jews. The UN came up with a solution to form a state for both peoples, but the Palestinian Arabs refused and declared war on the new state of Israel instead. Israel responded and kicked the butts of 5 Arab nations that backed the Palestinians up - it is history. Turnabout is fair play.

 

 

So the "solution" was to steal the Palestinians state/land and give it to their "enemies"..........sounds like a huge injustice to me!

[dexterm]

5 minutes ago, xylophone said:

 

So the "solution" was to steal the Palestinians state/land and give it to their "enemies"..........sounds like a huge injustice to me!

Don't worry, xylophone. We get the same off topic deflection memes whatever the subject.

Edited December 30, 2016 by dexterm

[hhinhh]

3 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

 

       Re; your opinion of Obama, I don't agree at all. If he was allowed to run for a 3rd term, he would have won decidedly against anyone.  Even now, at the end of his 2nd term, whenever he or Michelle go to a public forum, they're cheered like rock stars. He's quite popular.  180 degrees different than 8 yrs ago, when Bush Jr. was leaving office. He left the US with a near-depression, housing foreclosures nationwide, plus two dirty wars that he and Cheney started.

 

         As for the settlements, I actually agree that Israel is right.  They won a war.  Since Adam and Eve, whenever a country has won a war, they have the right to commandeering property.  In not-too-distant past, the victors would have taken a whole lot more territory and enslaved the conquered populace as well.

 

        Imagine if Israel had lost any of the recent wars they won.  The winners (Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon) would have run all the Jews out of Israel and/or imprisoned them.  They would have divvied up the spoils (Israel), and their national boundaries would show the changes.  In one of the wars, Israel booted the Egyptians off Sinai.  If Israelis were as land-grabbing as their Arab neighbors, they would have commandeered Sinai, and there would be Israeli settlements there also. Same for a significant portion of southwest Syria.

 

 

 

Such a stupid thinking!!! Imagine China had the idea to conquer Thailand. Of course they are more powerful and will win. Then you would agree that they can do with Thailand what they want??? Second you claim how cruel the Arabians would act if they would have won but if Israel wins they can do what they want?

How difficult is it to think that problems have to be solved on a table and not on a warfield? Luckly most of the recent winners in war finally could not benefit from their victory, what followed were even biger problems (as in Irak etc). But I am afraid that some idiot egomanes or narrow minded religious extremists always need a war to show what big guys they are.

[boomerangutang]

3 hours ago, JHolmesJr said:

I did not know BO was the leader of Israel.

I misread the letters.  I was referring to BN.

[Ulysses G.]

41 minutes ago, xylophone said:

 

So the "solution" was to steal the Palestinians state/land and give it to their "enemies"..........sounds like a huge injustice to me!

 

There was no Palestinian state and very little Palestinian land. It was owned by absentee landlords from surrounding areas of the Ottoman Empire until Britain took over.

[Cook my sock]

Netanyahu is a criminal, his family have been up to no good for decades. He helps give Israel a bad name

[louse1953]

2 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

They already have numerous times and the always Jews win.. That is why Egypt and Jordan finally made peace. About time the Palestinians did the same.

55,they would be useless without all that military aid from the States.Cut the cry baby lose.

[Cook my sock]

The bottom line is Israel doesn't want peace

[craigt3365]

1 hour ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

There was no state there at all and the Arabs were waging combat on the Jews. The UN came up with a solution to form a state for both peoples, but the Palestinian Arabs refused and declared war on the new state of Israel instead. Israel responded and kicked the butts of 5 Arab nations that backed the Palestinians up - it is history. Turnabout is fair play.

 

So those who had their butts kicked don't get to fight back?  I thought you said turnabout is fair play?  Sometimes, you really do reap what you sow.

[boomerangutang]

 

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

And that's what I really don't get about this whole mess........what right did they have to enact this and form a state when there wasn't one previously?

 

European powers were, among other things, trying to enact a workable solution. Leaving it up to Arabs and Jews (and Assyrians, Ottomans, Egyptians, Persians, etc) doesn't work.  It hasn't worked for the past 7,000 years. The proof is the endless conflicts in that region.  Re-drawing the lines (or drawing lines where none existed prior) was thought to be a solution but, of course, it didn't work.  Whether or not the Europeans interfered, there would be non-stop hassles and wars there. 

 

47 minutes ago, xylophone said:

So the "solution" was to steal the Palestinians state/land and give it to their "enemies"..........sounds like a huge injustice to me!

 

Palestinian tribes were camped on that desert property, same as Jewish tribes and others.  It's akin to the half dozen hill tribes in central SE Asia. The hill tribes have been here for over 1,000 years.  Does SE Asia belong to the Lisu?, to the Muser?, to the Lahu?, the Khmer? Malay? Thai? Aka?  

 

The main reason SE Asians haven't been fighting incessantly, while Middle Easterners have, is M.E'ers have nearly zero natural resources (except some places have oil).  When a region has no natural resources, its people are miserable.  Look at the M.East or northern Africa, for examples.  

[boomerangutang]

8 minutes ago, Cook my sock said:

The bottom line is Israel doesn't want peace

 

What a silly statement.  Of course it wants peace.  ....and security.   How could Israelis not want peace?  Do you think they want continued conflict?  Ridiculous statement.

 

Ok, on 2nd thought, if they all thought like Dick Cheney then yea, maybe they want war, because people like Cheney fatten their bank accounts by financing wars.   However, I don't think Israelis think like that.

[geriatrickid]

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

 

And that's what I really don't get about this whole mess........what right did they have to enact this and form a state when there wasn't one previously?

 

 

There was a  nation of Israel. Multiple conquests by  foreign powers  seized the land. Keep in mind that many of today's  Arab countries are inventions. The Ottoman Empire  controlled large swathes of the middle east. there was no Syria, no Iraq, no Saudi Arabia, Jordan etc. It was all  Turkish possession. The borders of Africa are mostly invented too. Here's the reality: The Turkish colonial rule has left a legacy of fractured  borders and tribal conflicts. Jordan's Hashemites are not even from Jordan. They were transplanted from the tribes of present day Saudi Arabia. At least Israel has a long standing history.Jordan is a true invention, as is Lebanon. Lebanon was carved out of Assyria by the colonial powers.  Even Egypt which has a long history in the region has some sketchy southern borders. If you wish to dissolve Israel, then what of the arab countries? Do you rstore the lands of teh nearly 1 million  Jewish Arabs forced out of Arab countries and who lost all that they had? Why is it the larger number of Arab jews who lost everything is dismissed? 

[Ulysses G.]

22 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

So those who had their butts kicked don't get to fight back?  

 

The Palestinian Arabs started the violence in the first place. In case you have noticed, they are the ones with no country or working economy. THEY have certainly reaped what they have sown.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

Not quite sure what all this discussion of the phony history of the last 3 millenia has to do with the OP...relations between Obama and Netanyahu. Looks like our resident troll has got a few people interested in feeding him.

 

It doen't really matter, only 3 weeks to go and Obama will be yesterday's man who had a chance to make the Middle East a safer place and blew it. He should have made known his genuine feelings about a just solution to the conflict pressuring Netanyahu much sooner. Maybe he was trying to shield Hillary from flak in the run up to the election. Unless he simply wants this as a legacy - for the record I told you so.

Edited December 30, 2016 by dexterm
spelling

[yardrunner]

5 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

They already have numerous times and the always Jews win.. That is why Egypt and Jordan finally made peace. About time the Palestinians did the same.

Perhaps they would if they felt they could trust the Israeli government to keep their word

[craigt3365]

9 minutes ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

The Palestinian Arabs started the violence in the first place. In case you have noticed, they are the ones with no country or working economy. THEY have certainly reaped what they sowed.

No country?  Really?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine

Quote

The State of Palestine (Arabic: دولة فلسطين‎‎ Dawlat Filasṭīn), also known simply as Palestine, is a de jure sovereign state^[16][17] in the Middle East that is recognized by 136 UN members and since 2012 has a status of a non-member observer state in the United Nations – which amounts to a de facto, or implicit, recognition of statehood.^[18][19][20] The State of Palestine claims the West Bank (bordering Israel and Jordan) and Gaza Strip (bordering Israel and Egypt)^[1] with East Jerusalem as the designated capital.^[ii][4][5] Most of the areas claimed by the State of Palestine have been occupied by Israel since 1967 in the aftermath of the Six-Day War.^[12]Its independence was declared on 15 November 1988 by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in Algiers as a government-in-exile.

 

Sure seems like a country to me.  And one that's having it's land taken...great reason to fight back.  I'd fight back also:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#Captured_territories_and_Arab_displaced_populations
 

Quote

 

There was extensive displacement of populations in the captured territories: of about one million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, 300,000 (according to the United States Department of State)^[173] either fled, or were displaced from their homes, to Jordan, where they contributed to the growing unrest.^[174] The other 700,000^[175] remained. In the Golan Heights, an estimated 80,000 Syrians fled.^[176] Israel allowed only the inhabitants of East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights to receive full Israeli citizenship, applying its law, administration and jurisdiction to these territories in 1967 and 1981, respectively. The vast majority of the populations in both territories declined to take citizenship.

.........

However, the position of the other occupied territories has been a long-standing and bitter cause of conflict for decades between Israel and the Palestinians, and the Arab world in general.

 

 

Sounds like what Russia did to countries they captured.  Displace native populations and replace them with their own.  No wonder both countries are not well liked by some.

[Cook my sock]

 

The Palestinian Arabs started the violence in the first place. In case you have noticed, they are the ones with no country or working economy. THEY have certainly reaped what they have sown.

Ok just to educate people who don't know, the British controlled Palestine until 1948, prior to that a Partition Plan was drawn up by the UN. Unfortunately some Zionist dude decided not to recognize this and declared a Jewish state (on the day of the end of British rule) - this was an unspecified area with no borders, infuriating the Neighbouring countries and inevitably led to a war which the Jews had kind of planned for

It's been like this ever since.

[dexterm]

Just another thought. Obama's is the sort of chess move a clever player would make. 

 

Obama is perhaps copping all the flak he is taking now..."too little too late" from the left, .."you #!?* upsetting our best friend Israel" from the right .....as a sacrifice, to get Trump and Netanyahu to bluster and blunder into the endgame of a one state solution, and all the international opprobrium that would entail. Possibly even inadvertently bringing about a binational state with equal rights for all.

 

Whether a clever preplanned political move or not. That may be the end result when Trump's  knee jerk response plays out.

[Srikcir]

7 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

Israel won a number of wars against 5 Arab armies with crap weapons

In the Six-Day War Israel used weapons on the ground and in the air manufactured and supplied by NATO nations such as France, USA, Belgium, etc. As part of those nation's weapons inventory, they were not "crap." http://historywarsweapons.com/weapons-used-in-the-six-day-war/

But effective use of any weapon requires expert training and for that Israeli armed forces were better prepared than Arab forces it faced.

[xylophone]

3 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

There was no Palestinian state and very little Palestinian land. It was owned by absentee landlords from surrounding areas of the Ottoman Empire until Britain took over.

 

Have just read this and it doesn't really gel with your explanation........

 

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early.php   

[JHolmesJr]

3 hours ago, Cook my sock said:

Netanyahu is a criminal, his family have been up to no good for decades. He helps give Israel a bad name

 

He is batshit crazy…gagging for a war….when rabin was calling for peace and an end to settlements, he engineered the protests that led to his killing.

[boomerangutang]

8 hours ago, dexterm said:

Not quite sure what all this discussion of the phony history of the last 3 millenia has to do with the OP...relations between Obama and Netanyahu. Looks like our resident troll has got a few people interested in feeding him.

It doen't really matter, only 3 weeks to go and Obama will be yesterday's man who had a chance to make the Middle East a safer place and blew it. He should have made known his genuine feelings about a just solution to the conflict pressuring Netanyahu much sooner. Maybe he was trying to shield Hillary from flak in the run up to the election. Unless he simply wants this as a legacy - for the record I told you so.

 

Every US prez for the past 50 yrs has tried to broker peace agreements in the M.East.  The Palestine/Isreal situation vacillates between bad and very bad at any given time.  The Oslo accords were the closest they've come to true peace.  The Oslo discussions stretched nearly 9 years. The key players were Israel's Barak, Palestine's Arafat, and the U.S's Clinton.  It touched on a lot of detail and came excruciatingly close to full agreements.  Indeed, Arafat did agree to reasonable conditions, but then shortly afterwards, he returned to Palestine and declared to Palestinians that he didn't agree to anything.  His fans cheered, and armed conflict reignited for years after that.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts removed.   Continue and face a suspension.  

[Morch]

16 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Netanyahu being in power for years to come might not be a good thing.  Perhaps somebody else with a desire for real peace would be better? 

 

He sounds like a baby who just had his candy taken away from him. LOL

 

16 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Agreed.  Those who make peace are not always loved.  But their place is history will be there.  Time for peace in this area.  Can't blame all the problems on the Palestinians.  It's a 2 way street.

 

Both nations suffer from a prolonged leadership crisis, with Abbas and Netanyahu more concerned with political survival than anything else. Over time, this led to both driving off anyone seen as a too much of potential contender, thereby depleting the ranks of acceptable replacements. The unintended offshoot of these political maneuvers was extremist forces on both sides gaining undue influence.

 

There's a distinct lack of realistically electable strong enough and yet moderate "somebody", Israeli or Palestinian.

[Morch]

16 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

The leaders of Israel who have made important peace deals n the past were just as hated by the left and the Arabs as Netanyahu. He is the kind of leader who just might surprise everyone. 

 

 

There were two (or three, depending who's included) Israeli leaders who made peace - Begin, Rabin (and, I would add, Peres). The two others who engaged in negotiations (but could not deliver anyway) were Barak and Olmert. Not entirely sure which "left" and which "Arabs" are referred to, but none of them even remotely approached the levels of antagonism associated with Netanyahu. The last line in your post is a non sequitur, apart from lacking any realistic substance. These Trumpisms do not apply to someone who's been in office for years.