Help with three sentences from a book needed

[Mac7]

Hey folks,

In my brave quest to read a children book in Thai language I’m once again stuck. That is despite having both the English and the Thai version of the book (“Diary of a wimpy kid – the last straw” by Jeff Kinney).

Can you please help me with the following paragraph? There are three parts which I don’t understand.

Here’s the English version:

“Besides, after I reminded mom for like the billionth time to stop chewing her crisps so loud, she made a really good point. She said, “Everyone can’t be as perfect as you, Gregory.” And from what I’ve seen so far I think she’s right.”

And here’s the Thai version:

ยังไงก็ตาม หลังจากที่ฉันเตือนแม่เป็นพันล้านหนแล้วว่าอย่า เคี้ยวมันฝรั่งทอดเสียงดัง แม่ก็พูดอะไรที่เข้าท่าซะไม่มี แม่บอกว่า “จะมีใครหน้าไหนเลิศเลอเพอร์เฟ็กต์ได้เท่าลูกล่ะจ๊ะเกรกอรี่” เท่าที่ฉันดูฉันว่าแม่ก็พูดถูกอยู่นา

First part which I don’t understand:

What’s the meaning of ซะไม่มี in แม่ก็พูดอะไรที่เข้าท่าซะไม่มี? I thought that “she made a really good point” could be translated as แม่ก็พูดอะไรที่เข้าท่า. Why is ซะไม่มี added at the end?

Second problem:

What’s the meaning of ใครหน้าไหน in “จะมีใครหน้าไหนเลิศเลอเพอร์เฟ็กต์ได้เท่าลูกล่ะจ๊ะเกรกอรี่”? Even knowing the English version “Everyone can’t be as perfect as you, Gregory.” and looking up the words in online dictionaries (ใครหน้าไหน is translated as sth. like "who in front of which"), I can’t make sense of this part.

Third problem:

What’s the meaning of ถูกอยู่นา at the end of the last sentence? According to the English version it should be something like “right” or “correct”. But the translations that I find for ถูกอยู่นา in online dictionaries (e.g.  นา is translated as "field, farm") don’t make sense.

Any help with any of these three problems would be much appreciated.

Cheers,

Marc

[DavidHouston]

" เท่าที่ฉันดูฉันว่าแม่ก็พูดถูกอยู่นา "
And from what I’ve seen so far I think she’s right.

 

เท่าทีา - as far as

ฉันดู - I have seen

ฉันว่า - I think that 

แม่ - mother (relationship term used in place of pronoun)

ก็  - linking  word

พูด - to speak, say

ถูก - correctly

อยู่ - (progressive verb indicator)

นา -  (a particle added to the end of a sentence to emphasize and persuade)

 

[DavidHouston]

"หน้า" in "ใครหน้าไหน" is used as a classifier or pronoun. Perhaps an English equivalent for this  phrase is "anyone at all". Lexitron shows the meaning of this usage as

 

หน้า /nâː/  [PRON] anyone
     Example : เขารับรองใครต่อใครไม่เลือกหน้า
 

[DavidHouston]

I am a bit puzzled by the placement of "ไม่ม่" here. I hope someone in this forum can explain the useage:

" ...ไม่มี แม่บอกว่า “จะมีใครหน้าไหนเลิศเลอเพอร์เฟ็กต์ได้เท่าลูกล่ะจ๊ะเกรกอรี่”

 

I would have expected:

'แม่บอกว่า “จะมีใครหน้าไหนเลิศเลอเพอร์เฟ็กต์ได้เท่าลูกล่ะจ๊ะเกรกอรี่ ก็ไม่มี” '

จะมี - is there

ใครหน้าไหน - anyone

เลิศเลอ - fantastic

เพอร์เฟ็กต์ - [Thai transcription of English "perfect"]

ได้ - can there be

เท่า - equal to

ลูก - my son [relationship term used in place of pronoun]

ล่ะจ๊ะ - [particles of emotional emphasis]

เกรกอรี่ - [Thai transcription of English "Gregory"]

ก็ไม่มี - there is no one.

But, I suspect I  am reading this incorrectly and someone will help  us here.

 

[Briggsy]

3 minutes ago, DavidHouston said:

I am a bit puzzled by the placement of "ไม่ม่" here. I hope someone in this forum can explain the useage:

" ...ไม่มี แม่บอกว่า “จะมีใครหน้าไหนเลิศเลอเพอร์เฟ็กต์ได้เท่าลูกล่ะจ๊ะเกรกอรี่”

 

I would have expected:

'แม่บอกว่า “จะมีใครหน้าไหนเลิศเลอเพอร์เฟ็กต์ได้เท่าลูกล่ะจ๊ะเกรกอรี่ ก็ไม่มี” '

จะมี - is there

ใครหน้าไหน - anyone

เลิศเลอ - fantastic

เพอร์เฟ็กต์ - [Thai transcription of English "perfect"]

ได้ - can there be

เท่า - equal to

ลูก - my son [relationship term used in place of pronoun]

ล่ะจ๊ะ - [particles of emotional emphasis]

เกรกอรี่ - [Thai transcription of English "Gregory"]

ก็ไม่มี - there is no one.

But, I suspect I  am reading this incorrectly and someone will help  us here.

 

The translator, to capture the emphatic irony has chosen a rhetorical question device in Thai. Therefore I think it is better left as it is (without moving the ไม่มี to after Gregory). You have parsed this out.

 

So, what is the ไม่มี doing before แม่บอกว่า? I have absolutely no idea. I am afraid it is beyond me too! I don't think it applies to the sentence, "Everyone can't be as perfect as you, Gregory." But if it does......

 

Could it possibly be an editing error? As follows ;

 

Firstly the translator went with a literal translation ไม่มีใครหน้าไหน.......

Then the translator changed his or her mind going with the rhetorical question จะมีใครหน้าไหน......

 

However due to the แม่บอกว่า splitting the direct speech, the alteration was made incorrectly.

 

This is my idea.

 

 

[DavidHouston]

Thank you, Briggsy.

[puukao]

Good thread


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[tgeezer]

Why do you think that แม่พูดอะไรที่เข้าท่า says anything like make a good point? it says , mother speaks something, something เข้าท่า to me that means that she doesn't contradict not that she makes a good point,
There are plenty of English equivalents words for เข้าท่า you can look them up. The point is that ซะ means เสีย and emphasises the verb it follows and ไม่มี negates what goes before. So the translation departs from Thaigrit here. English written in Thai could be something like แม่ตอบอย่างใช้ข้อดีว่า




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[Mac7]

Dear David, Briggsy and tgeezer,

 

Thank you so much for your help!

What I’ve learned:

First problem:

It seems there’s no final conclusion on this one, but Briggsy shared a good, possible explanation. Thank you! One would probably need to ask the book editor to find out more.

@tgeezer: My Thai knowledge is not good. I just interpreted พูดถูก as “making a good point” because it literally means “say good” or “say correctly”, but, as you said, there may be better ways of translating that.

Second problem:

Thanks David for pointing me in the right direction. I’ve looked a bit further, because I felt like “ใครหน้าไหน” should actually mean “no one” or “nobody” to really make sense here. What I’ve found is the lyrics of a song translated from English to Thai which contains “ใครหน้าไหน” and it’s used there as a translation of “no one” (see https://zamzatoru.blogspot.com/2016/07/avril-lavigne-rock-n-roll.html).  I’m not sure whether this lyrics translation is a reliable resource, but it makes sense with regards to my translation problem. So, I now understand the sentence as follows:

จะมีใครหน้าไหนเลิศเลอเพอร์เฟ็กต์ได้เท่าลูกล่ะจ๊ะเกรกอรี่

The word-by-word translation as I understand it now: There is no one perfect can as much as you Gregory.

Which seems to sufficiently fit to the actual English sentence in the book: Everyone can’t be as perfect as you, Gregory.

Third problem:
Thanks David! Now it’s clear.

Kind regards,

Marc

[Briggsy]

9 hours ago, tgeezer said:

Why do you think that แม่พูดอะไรที่เข้าท่า says anything like make a good point? it says , mother speaks something, something เข้าท่า to me that means that she doesn't contradict not that she makes a good point,
There are plenty of English equivalents words for เข้าท่า you can look them up. The point is that ซะ means เสีย and emphasises the verb it follows and ไม่มี negates what goes before. So the translation departs from Thaigrit here. English written in Thai could be something like แม่ตอบอย่างใช้ข้อดีว่า




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I beg to differ on your first point.

 

แม่ Mum

ก็พูด said

อะไร somthing

ที่่ that [was]

เข้าท่า appropriate in a good way

ซะ (emphasis)

 

So I feel the translation works.

 

I feel your explanation of ไม่มี is beyond me. You will need to clarify what you mean and what the ไม่มี qualifies precisely, what clause, what verb etc.

[eric67]

ซะไม่มี is an expression meaning something like มาก

 

In the sentence here: 

แม่ก็พูดอะไรที่เข้าท่าซะไม่มี - she made a really good point

 

ซะไม่มี is translated as "really"

[tgeezer]

With the original and a translation it is a question of making the translation fit. I misinterpreted the original and translated mother's remark as sarcasm when from the kid's point of view she is simply stating a fact.
My interpretation makes เข้าท่าเสียไม่มี inappropriate, he was hurt by it. I should have made a better job of the English. He doesn't realize that she is being sarcastic so I should have been trying to make เสียไม่มี into something positive. The way to do that is to google it เจ็บซะไม่มี น่ารัก (from a song) น่ารัก ซะไม่มี (Facebook name) เก็งซะไม่มี (from a book) I assume that they are all positive effect on the preceding adjective.
Mother says something (which is) very appropriate. พูดอะไรที่เข้าท่าซะไม่มี may well be how 'to make a good point' is translated as a Thai idiom. We live and learn.


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[Mac7]

15 hours ago, eric67 said:

ซะไม่มี is an expression meaning something like มาก

 

In the sentence here: 

แม่ก็พูดอะไรที่เข้าท่าซะไม่มี - she made a really good point

 

ซะไม่มี is translated as "really"

Thank you so much for clarifying this, Eric!

 

It's a pity that such kind of expressions are not well-documented in online dictionaries.

[Briggsy]

16 hours ago, eric67 said:

ซะไม่มี is an expression meaning something like มาก

 

In the sentence here: 

แม่ก็พูดอะไรที่เข้าท่าซะไม่มี - she made a really good point

 

ซะไม่มี is translated as "really"

Thanks, new one for me.

[tgeezer]

You are not the only one Briggsy! I tried it on my golf group today and nobody had any idea. All of us being over 70years old except one of in his fifties explains that I suppose. I would be interested in how ไม่มี can be taken as positive. I assumed that it was understood that ซะ was slang for เสีย and that 'not' had been added like "He is so clever, we all learnt a lot, not." which used to be in vogue but seems to have died out now.


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[tgeezer]

Hey folks,

In my brave quest to read a children book in Thai language I’m once again stuck. That is despite having both the English and the Thai version of the book (“Diary of a wimpy kid – the last straw” by Jeff Kinney).

Can you please help me with the following paragraph? There are three parts which I don’t understand.

Here’s the English version:

“Besides, after I reminded mom for like the billionth time to stop chewing her crisps so loud, she made a really good point. She said, “Everyone can’t be as perfect as you, Gregory.” And from what I’ve seen so far I think she’s right.”

And here’s the Thai version:

ยังไงก็ตาม หลังจากที่ฉันเตือนแม่เป็นพันล้านหนแล้วว่าอย่า เคี้ยวมันฝรั่งทอดเสียงดัง แม่ก็พูดอะไรที่เข้าท่าซะไม่มี แม่บอกว่า “จะมีใครหน้าไหนเลิศเลอเพอร์เฟ็กต์ได้เท่าลูกล่ะจ๊ะเกรกอรี่” เท่าที่ฉันดูฉันว่าแม่ก็พูดถูกอยู่นา

First part which I don’t understand:

What’s the meaning of ซะไม่มี in แม่ก็พูดอะไรที่เข้าท่าซะไม่มี? I thought that “she made a really good point” could be translated as แม่ก็พูดอะไรที่เข้าท่า. Why is ซะไม่มี added at the end?

I think that we have a language problem. I have spoken to a middle aged Thai, expert in the art of translation, as I expect have most of you by now.
This is my offering now.
"Everyone can't be as perfect as you, Gregory" is sarcasm. However the idiot kid doesn't hear it as sarcasm. He says that she makes a good point.
เข้าท่าซะไม่มี means "does not come alongside the pier" not "says something very apposite" and is the translators way of making จะมีใครหน้าไหนเลิดเอลได้เท่าลูกล่ะจ๊ะ sarcastic.

หลังจากที่ฉันเตือนแม่เป็นพันล้านหนแล้วว่าอย่า เคี้ยวมันฝรั่งทอดเสียงดัง แม่ก็พูดอะไรที่เข้าท่าซะไม่มี แม่บอกว่า “จะมีใครหน้าไหนเลิศเลอเพอร์เฟ็กต์ได้เท่าลูกล่ะจ๊ะเกรกอรี่” เท่าที่ฉันดูฉันว่าแม่ก็พูดถูกอยู่นา
...after I reminded mum it is one thousand million (tellings) " chew chrisps loud, " mum then said something which was not appropriate she told me " ......"

I misinterpreted, เก่งซะไม่มี น่ารักซะไม่มี เจ็บซะไม่มี as positive, they are ประชดประชัน




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[Briggsy]

Girlfriend has never heard of the phrase ซะไม่มี.

[tgeezer]

My friend is an exoert only lacking in patience, which is why I have to guess a lot! I am more sure now that it is as I said before I was talked out if it by eric67's post 'really' . I don't see why we can't translate the Thai words and draw our own conclusions. เสีย as empasises has become ซะ thus become a particle. ไม่มี is understandable, เงินไม่มี . เข้าท่า is not the easiest verb so เขาน่ารักซะไม่มี She is really lovable not. Kids add 'not' perhaps because with all the foreigners and popsongs affecting the language the sarcastic tone has become lost.
"She is really loveable" can be sarcastic, in fact all emphatic adjectives can be sarcastic if they don't apply. Perhaps แซว might be better than ประชดประชัน .
A dictionary can't afford to include words like this because they can easily change their role, everything I am saying is a guess based on my friends knowledge, others will guess something else perhaps. Not everyone has drunk from the same well.


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[BayLay]

Very interesting discussion.  As aThai native speaker, albeit having been living abroad for a couple of decades, I think Eric's interpretation is correct.  

 

This "ซะไม่มี" has been kind of a "hip" idiom that one adds to spice up the expression.  Depends on the context and how is the sentence is spoken ( including tone, pitch, pause, etc), it can be just a fun tag, a tease, an emphasis, or just a habit.   What is almost always true is that it is not used in formal situation and not by older generation.  It has a very fluid meaning.

 

In the positive context, "ซะไม่มี" can be a short form of "ไม่มีใครเทียบได้". (i.e. "nonpareil".

 

In this case, I think the sarcasm is conveyed through the addition of the word "หน้าไหน"

 

my 2 staang

Edited January 12, 2017 by BayLay
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