Lao expat being warned by Thai immigration need visa for cross border shopping

[anotheruser]

On 1/5/2017 at 8:44 AM, JLCrab said:

So maybe now some enterprising Lao or Cambodian citizen will set up a shopping service where they cross over to Thailand and execute your buying list and then meet you at the border with your payment upon delivery.

 

That might be okay for personal shopping. People who get restaurant supplies from Thailand for business will have a hard time. One point my friend brought up who does business in 4,000 islands is ... if you let people shop for you all of your secrets will come out. 

 

You don't really want to tell a Lao person where you buy everything and what you buy and then they know the prices. The best way is if you have a Lao wife or friend to do it but that is also less than ideal. The cost of running business just went up. Also it is likely that if Lao people go the tax man will jump on them.

 

When foreigners cross the border we are searched much less than when Lao people do it. Unless you have a big truck of stuff you can't hide you go through no problem. Import tax is quite high so this is a problem. Think about Vientiane. Almost 100% of the foreign owned restaurants and bars get supplies in Thailand.

 

Laos has just introduced VAT and they have no reason to not love this rule. They want you buying goods in Laos that have been through the tax process and pay the 10% VAT. So I wouldn't expect the Lao government to be at all sympathetic. 

 

In the case of 4,000 islands the Cambodian border is close for visa hops but in other parts of Laos this will make visa hopping very difficult for the illegal workers. For example people in Vang Vieng now have no where to hop to after the second time. This means it is much harder for the backpacker that is working in Laos on tourist visas 'just helping out'. 

 

So this whether it intends to or not help achieves the objective of clearing out Thailand but also has an impact should those people run to the side countries. This in some ways is great but sucks for those living in side countries legitimately. 

 

Cambodia is a little different because of easy visas but this if it stands is the beginning of the end for visa hoppers living in Laos on tourist visas. The noose just tightened.

Edited January 6, 2017 by anotheruser

[JLCrab]

39 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Surely there's (3) Whether they do or they don't realise the impact, they don't care

Well if they really didn't care they could've left things as they were without all this effort to change the rules.

[SaintLouisBlues]

Just now, JLCrab said:

Well if they really didn't care they could've left things as they were without all this effort to change the rules.

I meant they don't care that you're being inconvenienced

[anotheruser]

It just occurred to me that I have an elite visa and a valid B2 visa for Laos and work permit. I would be a valuable guy if I still lived in Laos at this point. lol In a truly ironic twist of fate I no longer have a desire to live in Laos and will be leaving Thailand soon. So neither of these mean anything in my daily life now. 

 

Talk about having the ideal set if I was still doing what I did. The visa expires end of next month anyway I suppose. 

[JLCrab]

An expat it seems can enter Laos as many times as he/she wants as long as long as they pay the visa fee which visa one can obtain at least at the Friendship Bridge in Nong Khai -- my only direct experience with entering  bordering countries. A visa exempt entry to Thailand is free. Maybe that has something to do with it.

[JLCrab]

3 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

I meant they don't care that you're being inconvenienced

I realize but that still doesn't answer the question as to WHY they are doing it.

[SaintLouisBlues]

Just now, JLCrab said:

I realize but that still doesn't answer the question as to WHY they are doing it.

They need a reason? How long have you had dealings with Thailand?

[JLCrab]

Just now, SaintLouisBlues said:

They need a reason? How long have you had dealings with Thailand?

12 years living in Thailand -- and dealing with Communist Party officials in PRChina before that and yes I think they have a reason or they wouldn't have bothered to change the rules although I have yet to read on here as to what that reason might be.

[LivinLOS]

9 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

I realize but that still doesn't answer the question as to WHY they are doing it.

 

Because they are fed up with people using short stay visit visas for long stay lifestyles...

 

...and if a few border hoppers avoiding Laos VAT get caught in the crossfire, they dont especially care.. 

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

12 years living in Thailand -- and dealing with Communist Party officials in PRChina before that and yes I think they have a reason or they wouldn't have bothered to change the rules although I have yet to read on here as to what that reason might be.

From the ministerial regulation that limits visa exempt entries to 2 per calendar year.  See:Visa Exempt Rules Dec 2016.pdf

Quote

Notes: - The reason for this announcement of ministerial regulations is that it has been
found that, on examining the time spent in the Kingdom by aliens receiving visa
exemptions to enter the Kingdom temporarily for purposes of tourism by crossing
Immigration check points at land borders, such aliens have tended to spend more time
in the Kingdom than is consistent with the purpose of granting visa exemptions to
enter the Kingdom temporarily for the purpose of tourism. Thus, in order to make
these land border crossings conform to the stated purpose of tourism, it is necessary to
issue these ministerial regulations to limit the number of annual border crossings by
individual aliens using visa exemptions for the purpose of tourism.

 

[JLCrab]

OK UJoe -- so it seems from the above that, even though they have not used the word, they are more concerned with the frequency of such visa exempt entries rather than the duration of any given entry.

Edited January 6, 2017 by JLCrab

[chainarong]

Not a well thought out piece of visa legislation and it has impacted on quite a few ,recommend follow Ubonjoe's advise

[JLCrab]

Since the Ministerial Order posted says that the Visa-Exempt entry is for tourism purposes and many if not most of the complaints on here are related to those entering Thailand for commercial purposes, maybe it is thought out better than you think.

Edited January 6, 2017 by JLCrab

[anotheruser]

4 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

 

Because they are fed up with people using short stay visit visas for long stay lifestyles...

 

...and if a few border hoppers avoiding Laos VAT get caught in the crossfire, they dont especially care.. 

 

That isn't the reality. People go shopping because the goods simply aren't available. Of course when they are available in Laos they are more expensive but that isn't the primary concern. It costs money to go stay in Thailand so any savings are negated anyway.

 

Anyway it doesn't matter the main point is right they simply don't care about Lao in general and have always looked down in Lao people in general. they aren't likely to care what a few kee nok farang in Lao do to survive. 

 

As I said earlier Lao will likely welcome this move anyway as it is a nice way to further squeeze what they can out of the situation. 

 

In some ways it is good for people doing business in Laos. Yes, it is inconvenient in many ways. However the amount of times some backpacker has come to the island I lived on and set up shop over night for the three month high season was annoying. 

 

Thailand also doesn't care about this but a nice side effect is these people now can't border hop and set up and supply shop so easily. So Thailand gets rid of the bottom feeders and also helps Lao weed out some of their's. In the meantime life is marginally disrupted for those that have a reason to live in Laos.

 

Some people will have to sacrifice some of the staples of their diet they find in Thailand. If it is shopping for larger items such as beds and kitchen stuff they will have to plan to do it every 6 months for the moment. 

 

For the price of getting a visa i guess you can always fly in instead. The trouble with that is you end up in Bangkok or Chiang Mai as far as I know. Long way back to the border from there. 

 

Anyway FWIW is worth my friend in southern Laos has reported the warnings have also been issued to those using the Chong Mek crossing yesterday.

 

[JackThompson]

The existing restrictions on serial visa-exempts converted long-termers under 50 into Tourist-Visa users.  This changed nothing except blocking frequent short-term folks, who immigration was still letting through on visa-exempts, even after the visa-exempt crackdown, since they clearly were not working.  Most of those who *are* working are Lao and Cambodian, and this doesn't affect them.  With the entire history of every Thai-visitor in the immigration system, adding a "date/day-counter routine" would be child's play.  So why, really, then?

 

Other possibilities: Maybe they don't want money being spent in "those areas" in the North and East.  In Bangkok (where most planes land), no problem (for short-termers).   Also, many expats in situations similar to the OP, and/or with health-issues, may decide to live in Thailand full-time. 

[JLCrab]

4 hours ago, JackThompson said:

<snip> So why, really, then?

<snip2>

The Ministerial Regulation says that Visa-Exempt entries are for tourist purposes only and someone who does not want a Lao/Cambodian citizen to do their shopping in Thailand for them because they are reluctant to divulge trade secrets as to where & how they source materials in Thailand for their commercial enterprise in Laos/Cambodia is not a tourist.

Edited January 6, 2017 by JLCrab

[anotheruser]

18 hours ago, JackThompson said:

The existing restrictions on serial visa-exempts converted long-termers under 50 into Tourist-Visa users.  This changed nothing except blocking frequent short-term folks, who immigration was still letting through on visa-exempts, even after the visa-exempt crackdown, since they clearly were not working.  Most of those who *are* working are Lao and Cambodian, and this doesn't affect them.  With the entire history of every Thai-visitor in the immigration system, adding a "date/day-counter routine" would be child's play.  So why, really, then?

 

Other possibilities: Maybe they don't want money being spent in "those areas" in the North and East.  In Bangkok (where most planes land), no problem (for short-termers).   Also, many expats in situations similar to the OP, and/or with health-issues, may decide to live in Thailand full-time. 

 

Can't speak for people in Cambodia but this affects every single person I know living and working in Laos. To say anything otherwise is to admit you have no clue at all of what you are talking about. 

[ldiablo72]

They can also be applied for in a persons country of legal residence.
There are few locations where a visa or visa waiver entry is accepted (not in Laos or any where nearby).

I am aware of that, but nowhere in the OP's post does he state he has legal residency in Laos.

[anotheruser]

5 hours ago, ldiablo72 said:

I am aware of that, but nowhere in the OP's post does he state he has legal residency in Laos.

 

This is missing the point. Assuming he does live in Laos it is still a huge inconvenience that disrupts everyday life.

[JLCrab]

4 hours ago, anotheruser said:

 

This is missing the point. Assuming he does live in Laos it is still a huge inconvenience that disrupts everyday life.

So everyday life in PDRLao depends upon virtually unrestricted no-cost access across international border to Thailand. OK.

[JackThompson]

18 hours ago, anotheruser said:

 

Can't speak for people in Cambodia but this affects every single person I know living and working in Laos. To say anything otherwise is to admit you have no clue at all of what you are talking about. 

 

Those not affected, who I was citing, are Lao and Cambodian citizens - not expats.  Yes, expats are affected, and they will not be spending as much money in the Issan and Chang Mai areas, as a result of this change.

Edited January 8, 2017 by JackThompson

[anotheruser]

10 hours ago, JLCrab said:

So everyday life in PDRLao depends upon virtually unrestricted no-cost access across international border to Thailand. OK.

 

You really no nothing about living in Laos do you? Look at what is sold in Laos and you will see that the country is very dependent on Thailand. Why do you think many things are priced in Baht? I will give you a hint... because they are bought in Thailand.

 

Virtually every restaurant in the capitol gets their stuff from Thailand. For an example of how it affects people let's say theoretically you live in Thailand. Now let's say they say you no longer are allowed to shop at any mall, Tesco, Big C, Tops, Rimping, powerbuy, homepro, Thai Watsadu, global house, index, robinsons, Mark and spencers, and the list goes on and on.

 

If you really don't see how not being able to access all of those regularly try building a house with out them. There really isn't much available in Laos and it does affect the development of the country. things are slow because literally every single thing you need has to be trucked in. 

 

Over 90% of consumer goods come from outside of Laos. If you want sticky rice and lao lao and live in a thatched hut you can get the stuff for that in Laos, for anything else it is imported.

 

That isn't even taking into account health care. So yes to answer your question everyday life is deeply dependent on having access to Thailand.

Edited January 8, 2017 by anotheruser

[JLCrab]

Fine -- Don't tell me. Tell General Anupong Paochinda, Thai Minister of the Interior, who wrote the Regulation and I guess knows nothing about living in Laos, either.

 

The new regulation as I understand has no impact on Lao citizens frequently crossing into Thailand and buying items to bring back to Laos and possibly sell them -- it only restricts non-Lao citizens in PDR Laos doing the same.

Edited January 8, 2017 by JLCrab

[LivinLOS]

22 hours ago, anotheruser said:

 

Can't speak for people in Cambodia but this affects every single person I know living and working in Laos. To say anything otherwise is to admit you have no clue at all of what you are talking about. 

 

However the expectation that you can live in a cheaper, sleepier, less developed country and have free, instant, unlimited right of access to a more developed country with supply chains.. Seems.. well.. unfounded.

 

Access for residents and business people is a privilege, not a right.. 

[anotheruser]

Just now, LivinLOS said:

 

However the expectation that you can live in a cheaper, sleepier, less developed country and have free, instant, unlimited right of access to a more developed country with supply chains.. Seems.. well.. unfounded.

 

Access for residents and business people is a privilege, not a right.. 

 

I never said it was a right. I was just explaining the impact it will have for some expats as one poster didn't seem to be able to understand the implications. 

[JLCrab]

The implications are simple: Other than the now 2 allowed land border visa-exempt entries per year, a non-Lao citizen living in Laos can either enter Thailand on a visa obtained at the Thai Embassy or Consulate in Laos or get a Lao citizen to cross into Thailand and do their shopping for them and bring the items back into PDR Lao.

 

Visa-exempt entries via air are still non-restricted.

Edited January 8, 2017 by JLCrab

[Coss]

The very simple explanation is: Thai Immigration wish to stop people doing border runs on the cheap and living in Thailand, the number of folk in Thailand bouncing across the land border and back every 30 days (or is it 15?) must be huge. As is usual, there has been no thought to the effect this ruling will have on those doing the opposite, living in Laos and skipping across the border every 30 days.

 

The Lao visa situation is completely untenable for those wishing to make their home there.

 

There are three basic legal options.

 

1 - pay for a visa on arrival every 30 days, easy ($30 I think) but you have to cross the border to do so. Herein the problem for a lot of expats.

2 - pay for a business visa, once a year ($500 I think + many documents etc) and cross the border annually.

3 - get permanent residence - almost impossible - I am married to a Lao and a permanent residence visa is  a possibility 10 years into the future. I know one guy who has got his after 20 years and he is well connected. I lived there and the marriage process took two years, lotsa money and a foot high stack of documents, three interviews with officials and not all succeed in the application.

 

This is why the Nong Khai shopping trips are so popular.

 

Mind you I remember when the Thai Nong Khai Immigration folk were doing a "runner hunt" once when I crossed into Nong Khai on my way to Bangkok, they were obviously looking for folk residing in the Nong Khai environs, because when asked where I was going to, I replied Bangkok and they let me go with a smile.

 

So it may be that after a while, they bow to pragmatism , or should I say, forget to check.

[JackThompson]

15 hours ago, JLCrab said:

The implications are simple: Other than the now 2 allowed land border visa-exempt entries per year, a non-Lao citizen living in Laos can either enter Thailand on a visa obtained at the Thai Embassy or Consulate in Laos or get a Lao citizen to cross into Thailand and do their shopping for them and bring the items back into PDR Lao.

 

Visa-exempt entries via air are still non-restricted.

 

Visa-exempt entries via air are still non-restricted, it appears, even after the 2-rule at land-borders began.  There are no published rules, so who knows how many trips a Lao expat could make before being denied-entry by air.  The below example is an ideal "good guy" visitor:

 

 

[ldiablo72]

 
This is missing the point. Assuming he does live in Laos it is still a huge inconvenience that disrupts everyday life.

I didn't make the stupid rule.

[JLCrab]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

 

Visa-exempt entries via air are still non-restricted, it appears, even after the 2-rule at land-borders began.  <snip>

 

They are non-non-restricted to two however non-non-non-restricted they may be to other entry validities.