Son told he lost his Thai citizenship for using Aussie passport

[louse1953]

6 hours ago, taiping said:

I had always thought that Thailand does not permit dual Nationality???

That's why I always told my Thai-Brit daughter to be careful about this and not show both passports at Immigration.

Dual citizenship allowed for nearly 30 years to my knowledge.

[Maestro]

3 hours ago, AlQaholic said:

I think Section 17 (2) can only be applied if the son is "sui juris" i.e. of legal age. Also I think this is never actually applied and is up to the discretion of the minister in charge only, has never been applied...

 

Section 17 of the Thai Nationality Act B.E. 2508, as most recently amended by the Nationality Act (No. 4) B.E. 2551, applies to children born in Thailand who acquired Thai nationality because their foreign parents had permanent residency status in Thailand.

[louse1953]

4 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

No! Not possible! The one time Thailand does accept Dual Citizenship is in cases like your son. He can hold 2 until her reaches the age of majority (18 years I think) then must decide which citizenship he wants to keep. I think that is a bit of a farce to as I don't think that would ever be enforced anyway.

 

Just get him a new Thai Passport.  

Rubbish.Can have both,never mind the age.How many Thai's,mostly women,married to foreigners,do you think have dual citizenship.Thousands if not hundred of thousands.

[louse1953]

1 hour ago, 12DrinkMore said:

 

Yeah, there is always some annoying eejit causing delays in the queue.

 

I don't even want to speculate why he was trying to exit using the wrong passport. Maybe a simple mistake or making some statement "look I have all these passports", but the only guys I have known with multiple passports were always extremely careful about which passport was the one they were currently travelling on and kept the other well out of sight.

 

Ruffling feathers at immigration is just asking for issues.

You would have to show both pp.The Thai one would have no visa for Oz.How do you prove you are an Australian citizen,show your Aust pp.,of course.

[AlQaholic]

24 minutes ago, Maestro said:

 

Section 17 of the Thai Nationality Act B.E. 2508, as most recently amended by the Nationality Act (No. 4) B.E. 2551, applies to children born in Thailand who acquired Thai nationality because their foreign parents had permanent residency status in Thailand.

Yes, my mistake you are right, A person born inside or outside Thailand with one parent being Thai, gets Thai citizenship automatically at birth, Section 17 refers to someone who have acquired Thai citizenship i.e. applied for it. Actually automatically at birth.....Strange that that point is not made more clear in the act, but rather indirectly stated by excluding children born by temporary stayers...

Edited January 10, 2017 by AlQaholic

[dbrenn]

12 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

The OP did not say how his son acquired Thai nationality but if he did because his mother was Thai at the time of his birth, Section 17, neither the outdated version to which you linked nor the current version (see here: https://goo.gl/nResS6), applies to him.

But looking at section 21 of the updated version, perhaps this is the cause of the immigration official's confusion.  

 

21. A person of Thai nationality who was born of an alien father or mother and may acquire the nationality of his father or mother according to the law on 
nationality of his father or mother shall lose Thai nationality if he obtains an alien identification card according to the law on registration of aliens.”

 

Perhaps the immigration official was confusing a foreign passport with an alien registration card? Or maybe the confiscation of the Thai passport was an effort to force the parents to get an alien registration card and therefore forfeit Thai nationality. 

 

A grey area that immigration seems to have little understanding of. 

[12DrinkMore]

21 minutes ago, louse1953 said:

You would have to show both pp.The Thai one would have no visa for Oz.How do you prove you are an Australian citizen,show your Aust pp.,of course.

 

Why?

 

Immigration on exit only want to cancel the the "coming in stamp" with a "going out stamp" in the same passport.

 

They have no interest about whether you have a visa for the next destination.

 

Only the airlines sometimes check that one, although I am not totally positive it is their lability to ship you out of the destination country if you cannot get past immigration.

[Maestro]

You would have to show both pp.The Thai one would have no visa for Oz.How do you prove you are an Australian citizen,show your Aust pp.,of course.

Show both passports to whom?

Certainly not to the immigration officer upon departure from Thailand, only to the airline check-in staff.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Thaivisa Connect mobile app

[Maestro]

Yes, my mistake you are right, A person born inside or outside Thailand with one parent being Thai, gets Thai citizenship automatically at birth, Section 17 refers to someone who have acquired Thai citizenship i.e. applied for it. Actually automatically at birth.....Strange that that point is not made more clear in the act, but rather indirectly stated by excluding children born by temporary stayers...

The wording of the amended Section 17, and of Sections 7 and 7 bis, of the Immigration Act is a bit convoluted because of its history. Originally, all children of foreign parents born in Thailand acquired Thai nationality at birth (ius soli) and through various amendments this changed to children only whose parents both had permanent residence. Rather than rewrite the text to say clearly who was entitled, the lawmakers chose to elaborate on the exceptions to the ius soli in Section 7 bis.

Another factor, making the English translation look a bit weird, is that when the criteria changed from "foreign father" to "a foreign parent" the translator used the literal translation "father or mother" rather than the more correct and logical translation "a parent"

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Thaivisa Connect mobile app

[taiping]

17 hours ago, louse1953 said:

Dual citizenship allowed for nearly 30 years to my knowledge.

Not what it says here . . .

http://www.multiplecitizenship.com/wscl/ws_THAILAND.html

Quote:  Child born abroad to Thai parents, who obtains the citizenship of the foreign country of birth, may retain dual citizenship until reaching the age of majority (18). At this point, person must choose which citizenship to retain.

 

Whether the rule is actually applied or not is another question, but surely better to be safer than sorry.

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, taiping said:

Not what it says here . . .

http://www.multiplecitizenship.com/wscl/ws_THAILAND.html

Quote:  Child born abroad to Thai parents, who obtains the citizenship of the foreign country of birth, may retain dual citizenship until reaching the age of majority (18). At this point, person must choose which citizenship to retain.

 

Whether the rule is actually applied or not is another question, but surely better to be safer than sorry.

That is incorrect info. It even mentions the nationality act that has been amended several times since the date they mention. 

The age of majority is 21 not 18.

[taiping]

49 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That is incorrect info. It even mentions the nationality act that has been amended several times since the date they mention. 

The age of majority is 21 not 18.

 

 

Yes, I think you are correct.

The 2008 amendment to the Nationality Act can be found at http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0474.pdf

Sections 14 & 15 say "if he desires" to renounce Thai nationality, not compelled.

Section 17, although not directly related, may be of interest.

Again, I say better to be safer than sorry. Better to keep a low profile in these matters.

Edited January 11, 2017 by taiping

[GroveHillWanderer]

21 hours ago, 12DrinkMore said:

 

Why?

 

Immigration on exit only want to cancel the the "coming in stamp" with a "going out stamp" in the same passport.

 

They have no interest about whether you have a visa for the next destination.

 

Only the airlines sometimes check that one, although I am not totally positive it is their lability to ship you out of the destination country if you cannot get past immigration.

This is correct. My daughter has dual nationality (Thai/British) and when travelling to the UK shows her British passport at check-in, so the airline can see she is entitled to enter the UK (and because it is the passport number associated with her air ticket on the Advance Passenger Information system required by some airlines, though I'm not sure they check that) and her Thai passport at immigration, since this is the one she entered on.  Immigration only wants to see (and you should only show them) the one passport.

 

Incidentally, while in the past I would frequently go with my Thai wife in the "Thais only" line while entering Thailand, the last time we tried it (last year) they would not permit it.  Whether that was just a one-off or some sort of new procedure, I don't know.

[Arkady]

There is no clause in the Nationality Act that clearly provides for involuntary revocation of Thai nationality, except for naturalised Thais, those who adopt the Thai nationality of their husbands and those who obtain Thai nationality through birth in the Kingdom to alien parents (since 1971 this has only applied if both parents are permanent residents).  There is an ambiguous clause that says that Thais who naturalise as aliens shall lose their Thai nationality but the interpretation of this clause, since the 1965 Act has only ever been that they shall lose their Thai nationality, if they voluntarily renounce it (to obtain the nationality of another country that explicitly prohibits dual nationality and requires proof that former nationality has been renounced).

 

In the case of the children born to one Thai parent and one foreign parent who are entitled to both nationalities at birth, there is an option but not an obligation to renounce Thai nationality at the age of 20.  This option may be taken up by look krung living somewhere like Singapore where, if the local authorities are aware they also have Thai nationality, they will cancel their Singaporean nationality, unless they get proof that the Thai nationality has been renounced.  In most cases, even in Singapore (if the person is discreet about having Thai nationality), there is no reason to take up this option and I guess that an incredibly small number of such applications, if any, is received by the Interior Ministry on an annual basis.

 

As KhunBENQ points out, the new constitution, which will take precedence over the Nationality Act, will resolve all ambiguities by making it impossible for anyone who is Thai from birth to have their Thai nationality taken away involuntarily.  My interpretation would be that this would also include those who are Thai as a result of being born in the Kingdom to alien parents, who historically have comprised the vast majority of cases where Thai nationality was revoked involuntarily. They are undeniably Thai from birth which is clearly the meaning of the Thai version with no reference to having Thai parents. 

[Arkady]

On 1/10/2017 at 11:20 AM, snowgard said:

When I remember right it was the Military Regime who publicit this rule to the media 2 years ago. They told that Thais who have 2 nationalities and come into Thailand with a foreign passport lose their Thai nationality if they left Thailand on their Thai Passport.

 

This cannot be correct.  There is no clause in the Nationality Act that supports this and the new constitution will expressly prohibit the revocation of Thai nationality from anyone Thai from birth.

 

There was thread here some time ago quoting from an Immigration website about how to deal with people using different passports, particularly Thai and foreign, which included reporting the latter for revocation of their Thai nationality.  I put a question to the Immigration officer who was running the thread on the legal basis of this and he quite surprisingly quoted a letter from the Interior Ministry to the Foreign Ministry from the early 1970s asking for cooperation on reporting Thais living abroad who had naturalised as aliens, in order to initiate revocation proceedings against them (based on the ambiguous clause that deals with Thais who naturalise at aliens in the Nationality Act).   However, research in the Royal Gazette reveals that not a single Thai has ever had their nationality revoked on this basis since the current 1965 Nationality Act was promulgated.  There is, however, a case from 2004 where a British guy, who was Thai through birth in Thailand to foreign parents, lost his Thai nationality because he entered Thailand on a British passport.  The Nationality Act has specific provisions dealing with naturalised Thais and those who get Thai nationality as a result of being born in Thailand to foreign parents which do permit revocation in the case of someone using a foreign nationality but this is not possible in the case of anyone who is Thai through birth to a Thai parent.

[snowgard]

I think the statement was about this rule in the Nationality Act (No.2) B.E. 2535 (1992)
http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0474.pdf

 

Sektion 21

A person of Thai nationality who was born of an alien father or mother and may acquire the  nationality  of  his  father  or  mother  according  to  law  on  nationality  of  his  father  or mother shall lose Thai nationality if he obtains an alien identification card under the law on alien registration.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

If I understand it right they can use this to revoke a Thai Nationality because they come inside Thailand with a foreign passport (ID Card).

 

 

[ubonjoe]

7 minutes ago, snowgard said:

Sektion 21

A person of Thai nationality who was born of an alien father or mother and may acquire the  nationality  of  his  father  or  mother  according  to  law  on  nationality  of  his  father  or mother shall lose Thai nationality if he obtains an alien identification card under the law on alien registration.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

If I understand it right they can use this to revoke a Thai Nationality because they come inside Thailand with a foreign passport (ID Card).

It is not a passport it is a ID card issued by Thailand for certain aliens (AKA pink ID card) under the alien registration rules. It has been primarily been issued to stateless people.

[snowgard]

This ID card it give in 1992 already? OK, I never know!!!

[ubonjoe]

11 hours ago, snowgard said:

This ID card it give in 1992 already? OK, I never know!!!

Look on page 11 and you will find that section 21 was amended in 2008.

[dentonian]

On ‎10‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 11:20 AM, snowgard said:

When I remember right it was the Military Regime who publicit this rule to the media 2 years ago. They told that Thais who have 2 nationalities and come into Thailand with a foreign passport lose their Thai nationality if they left Thailand on their Thai Passport.

 

I posted a topic on the experience of a friend some time ago.

 

Father UK national, Mother Thai national, married 7 years with a 6 year old son.

The son was born in Thailand, registered on Mothers Tabien Baan, Thai birth certificate and Thai passport.

Father lives and works in the UK, visits Thailand for 4 months every year.

Mother and son visit the UK 4 months a year.

 

In 2014 the Mother and son were returning from a trip to the UK. The coup was 2 days earlier.

She arrived to a state of pandemonium and soldiers doing the tasks of the IO's.

They were trying to enter on Thai passports, but in a bag search they found the UK passport of the son.

The soldier folded the Thai passport in half, damaging it, then refused to return it, stating the son couldn't have both.

They put a 30 day Visa exempt stamp in his UK passport.

 

Several weeks later Bangkok Immigration contacted her to say her son was on overstay 20,000 baht fine.

The Father paid the fine from the UK using his Visa debit card.

Since then the son has obtained annual extensions based on being a dependant of his Thai Mother and making 90 day reports.

[snowgard]

I am sure that kids not must pay for overstay. So I don't know where this money gone.

But 90 days is right if the son is on his UK passport and Non-O Visa in Thailand. Plus yearly visa extension.

Same with my sons.

 

[Arkady]

18 hours ago, snowgard said:

I think the statement was about this rule in the Nationality Act (No.2) B.E. 2535 (1992)
http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0474.pdf

 

Sektion 21

A person of Thai nationality who was born of an alien father or mother and may acquire the  nationality  of  his  father  or  mother  according  to  law  on  nationality  of  his  father  or mother shall lose Thai nationality if he obtains an alien identification card under the law on alien registration.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

If I understand it right they can use this to revoke a Thai Nationality because they come inside Thailand with a foreign passport (ID Card).

 

 

 

This provision was carried over from Nationality Acts prior to the current 1965 Act and is applicable only in very rare cases today.  In the past it was very easy for foreigners to get permanent residence in Thailand and there is also a provision in the Immigration Act for persons who formerly had Thai citizenship to obtain permanent residence.  The alien ID card referred to here is actually the dark brown alien book you get as a PR.  Alien identification card is a poor translation of the original which should be translated as "alien registration certificate" and it pre-dates the pink cards issued to PR by several decades.

 

My understanding is that the reason for this provision was the practice of Chinese males automatically entitled to Thai citizenship as a result of being born in Thailand to foreign parents avoiding claiming their Thai nationality to avoid Thai military service.  Since China allowed dual citizenship in those days and issued Chinese passports willingly to all overseas Chinese, they would use their Chinese passports to apply for Thai PR and get alien books.  There was not so much downside to being a foreigner with PR in Thailand before work permits and the Alien Business Act were introduced, although they had to be Thai to own land even before the Land Code was introduced in the 50s.  So this provision was introduced to prevent Chinese from claiming their Thai citizenship after they had got beyond the age of military conscription.  To compound things Thai women who married them automatically lost their Thai citizenship and had to get Chinese citizenship and alien books, either through their husbands or in their own right, if they were also born to Chinese parents. Normally Chinese women born in Thailand had no reason not take up Thai citizenship which they could own land.

 

There are many redundant or semi-redundant provisions in the 1965 Nationality Act that actually have their origins in earlier Nationality Acts but have people puzzling over their meaning and intent.  The only way to understand them is to trace them back through the previous acts until you see them appear the first time.  You can also see subtle changes in provisions, e.g the provision that originally mandated very clearly the stripping of Thai nationality from Thai nationality from Thais who naturalise as aliens until the 50s had one or two words altered in the current 1965 version so as to render it ambiguous as to whether this was mandatory or simply an option to surrender Thai nationality.  Similarly the original provision regarding look krung stated unequivocably that they automatically lose their Thai nationality at the age of 20, if they do not register their intent to remain Thai and surrender their foreign citizenship.  That version in 1992 was overturned only three weeks later by a new law that changed the wording to make it merely an option but not an obligation to renounce Thai citizenship,  if they chose to retain foreign citizenship with no requirement to register their intention with the government.

[Arkady]

5 hours ago, dentonian said:

I posted a topic on the experience of a friend some time ago.

 

Father UK national, Mother Thai national, married 7 years with a 6 year old son.

The son was born in Thailand, registered on Mothers Tabien Baan, Thai birth certificate and Thai passport.

Father lives and works in the UK, visits Thailand for 4 months every year.

Mother and son visit the UK 4 months a year.

 

In 2014 the Mother and son were returning from a trip to the UK. The coup was 2 days earlier.

She arrived to a state of pandemonium and soldiers doing the tasks of the IO's.

They were trying to enter on Thai passports, but in a bag search they found the UK passport of the son.

The soldier folded the Thai passport in half, damaging it, then refused to return it, stating the son couldn't have both.

They put a 30 day Visa exempt stamp in his UK passport.

 

Several weeks later Bangkok Immigration contacted her to say her son was on overstay 20,000 baht fine.

The Father paid the fine from the UK using his Visa debit card.

Since then the son has obtained annual extensions based on being a dependant of his Thai Mother and making 90 day reports.

 

This story sounds very strange.  Like most of Thailand's coups the 2014 coup was very orderly with minimal disruptions to public services.  There were no reports of soldiers stepping in to do the work of Immigration which is part of the police.  This would have been a very significant event which could not have escaped reporting in the media and, indeed, in the forums of Thai visa. The junta took control of the police seamlessly.  They kicked the outgoing Thaksinite police chief upstairs by co-opting him as a member of the junta, ensuring no trouble from his loyalists, and replaced him with their own man immediately.  Many department heads, including the director-general of Immigration were also speedily replaced.  After the coup and till this day soldiers are often seen with police and may control operations, particularly against influential figures the junta perceive as their enemies who have been paying off police.  However, they would clearly not have the technical knowledge of the software and all the procedures to replace the IOs and the airport would have had to shut down, if soldiers tried to take over their functions.  It is possible and, in fact very likely, there were soldiers hanging around the passport control area and other areas of the airport as a show of force just after the coup, but it is extremely unlikely they were actually performing the duties of IOs.  It seems much more likely that an Immigration Officer stole the Thai passport on his own initiative.  Demanding to see the supervisor would normally deal with this problem. 

 

The second thing that is strange is that under Immigration rules there is no overstay fine or other penalty applicable to minor children.  Also Immigration never contacts overstayers to inform them they have overstayed and have to pay a fine.  They only catch them at the airport when they leave the country, or other police catch them in a random ID and passport check and hand them over to Immigration police.   Apart from the raids on slums where Royingya have sought refuge there is no record, of which I am aware, of Immigration proactively searching for or contacting the thousands of overstayers scattered around the country.   Also Immigration do accept payment of fines by credit or debit card.  As far as I know they will escort overstayers at the airport to ATM machine to get the money but that is as far as it goes. 

 

I would suggest that the mother applies for a new passport for her son.  The Ministry of Foreign Affairs that issues Thai passports has no problems with dual nationality at all and even offers advice to dual nationals on its website, or used to, on how to juggle passports when travelling (always use the Thai one to enter and leave Thailand and the foreign one to enter and leave that country).  A police report will be needed regarding the loss of the stolen passport.  Probably a report to a local station to the effect that the passport was found to have been mislaid when moving house or some such will do.  The ministry must receive thousands of reports of lost or mislaid passports and are unlikely to take any action other than cancelling the lost document. The thief definitely would not have sent the passport to MoFA or reported the incident to them, since he or his superior would have known that was an illegal act. Even if MoFA is aware of the circumstances of the theft, they would be under a legal obligation to either return the stolen passport, if still in usable condition, or issue a new one, unless the boy was subject to criminal provisions that prevent him from having a passport.

 

Since the boy now has valid visa extensions, the way to make the issue go away and have him in Thailand on his Thai passport, without the need for further visa extensions, would be for the mother to take him on trip out of Thailand by air (land crossings create even more problems with two passports).  Let him exit on his British passport and close the loop of his visa extensions.  Then re-enter on the Thai passport.  I am sure, if there is a lower age or height limit on the use of the automatic gates at Suvarnabhumi but the mother can ask that at the passport office.  Entering through the automatic gates would avoid scrutiny by an IO.  Failing that, if she is challenged by an IO, as before, the mother must stand by her son's right to enter Thailand as a Thai citizen and summon the supervisor.

 

Since the boy is registered on a tabien baan, he will be called up for conscription as a Thai citizen, unless he renounces it, regardless of whether he stays on a British or Thai passport.  So he may as well enjoy the benefits of being Thai.

[dentonian]

Very unusual story indeed Arkady, but both Mother and Father confirm the facts.

 

The problem is they are both so lethargic that neither one of them can be bothered to sort it out.

The Father intends to retire here in a few years.

Their in for a shock when the son turns 20 and can't get anymore extensions.

 

[ubonjoe]

8 hours ago, dentonian said:

Their in for a shock when the son turns 20 and can't get anymore extensions.

There is no age limit to get an extension of stay as a returning Thai national.

Only a extension as a dependent of his father would end at the age of 20.

[dentonian]

48 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

There is no age limit to get an extension of stay as a returning Thai national.

Only a extension as a dependent of his father would end at the age of 20.

He wouldn't be returning from anywhere.

He's already here and being treated as a British national.

[ubonjoe]

Just now, dentonian said:

He wouldn't be returning from anywhere.

He's already here and being treated as a British national.

He still a Thai national. The term returning is just a phrase used in the police order.

Quote

2.23 In the case of a person who used to have Thai nationality or whose parent is or was of Thai nationality visiting relatives or returning to his or her original homeland:
Each permission shall be granted for no more than one year.

His parents need to get things sorted out so he is staying here as a Thai,

[dentonian]

31 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

His parents need to get things sorted out so he is staying here as a Thai,

Joe, the Father has just spent 4 months in Thailand.

(Just returned to UK with son)

 

One option was to replace the sons passport. Leave Thailand on the UK passport, return on the Thai passport.

That would show the son as leaving Thailand and not returning on Immigrations database. Problem solved.

 

I also arranged an appointment for them with a very high ranking female IO from Khon Kean, who was very interested in their experience and determined to correct the matter.

 

In the 4 months they failed to replace his Thai passport.

On the day of the appointment they got pissed the night before and failed to show.

 

The phrase 'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink' come to mind.

[dentonian]

45 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

He still a Thai national. The term returning is just a phrase used in the police order.

Quote

2.23 In the case of a person who used to have Thai nationality or whose parent is or was of Thai nationality visiting relatives or returning to his or her original homeland:
Each permission shall be granted for no more than one year.

I believe that according to the Thai Nationality Act, someone following this route to Thai nationality has to live and work in Thailand for 5 years before Thai nationality is granted.

[ubonjoe]

20 minutes ago, dentonian said:

I believe that according to the Thai Nationality Act, someone following this route to Thai nationality has to live and work in Thailand for 5 years before Thai nationality is granted.

That clause has nothing to do with applying for Thai nationality.

It is for Thai nationals who do not have a Thai passport to enter and stay in the country. Or in a case similar to the one you wrote about where a errant immigration officer refused to allow them to enter on their Thai passport.

Another example would be a person that has a Thai parent who was born outside Thailand but their parent failed to register their birth at a embassy.