How To Become Tax Resident In Thailand ?

[Naam]

8 hours ago, jonw8uk said:

Of note too, is that Thailand hasnt signed up for CRS.  HSBC asked for my TIN here, but accepted that as they aren't covered by the standard, i dont need to provide it. 

the OP's bank is in Hong Kong and his company is a HK company. therefore not only future CRS regulation apply but also prevailing reporting standards, id est "no bank account without proof of residence".

 

globally all banks (i am not referring to anachronistic financial institutions who work as if the dark ages still exist like Thai banks)  follow since years strict regulations as far as residence and especially tax residence is concerned. beneficiaries of corporate accounts have to submit every few years via their service providers on demand that their corporation is "in good standing", annual returns were filed and the token flat tax was paid.

[Morakot]

19 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

What your trying to do, despite the evasive answers, is clearly illegal. 

 

 

I'm impressed!

 

 

My learned friends usually take weeks and  need to review endless pages of documentary evidence to make a pronouncement whether something is lawful or not, while costing an arm and a leg.

 

I think I should hire you, considering the speed and ease you deliberate!

Edited January 11, 2017 by Morakot

[LivinLOS]

10 hours ago, Naam said:

do you have a work permit for handling your investments online?

 

Managing your financial investments (even stock market trades) isnt considered work according to the labor and employment offices.. 

 

I would assume complex investing which requires a lot of daily / weekly workload, arb trading, things like that to fall over the line. 

 

I havent bought or sold a product in 2 or 3 years so cant see where it would even raise its head. 

[LivinLOS]

9 hours ago, Naam said:

don't let those without any experience confuse you. your plan being income tax free is workable and legal. there's also no need to worry about any potential hair loss. stay am minimum of 183 days in any calendar year in Thailand and you are automatically a tax resident. however, for the coming CRS (Common Reporting Standard) your bank and/or service provider which handles your offshore company might ask for additional proof. worst case scenario is demanding a TIN (Tax Identification Number). but acquiring a TIN isn't a problem.

 

Thats factually incorrect if he is working in any form to generate that income which he wishes to become tax free for. 

[LivinLOS]

8 minutes ago, Morakot said:

 

I'm impressed, Your Worship!

 

 

My learned friends usually take weeks and  need to review endless pages of documentary evidence to make a pronouncement whether something is lawful or not, while costing an arm and a leg.

 

I think I should hire you, considering the speed and ease you deliberate!

 

Well the question is.. How do I go to Thailand, spend > 183 days there per year, working for my offshore company and.. 

 

When that information is provided, the '...and' becomes irrelevant.. Legally a work permit is required. He needs to incorporate in Thailand, or work for an umbrella company. 

 

Its not hard to see why it is illegal.. Or why it becomes strange to attempt to pay Thai income taxes, while not working for the same income. Investment returns, rental yields etc is a different ballgame. Tho again as long as you have a years buffer, again strange to seek to pay. 

[Naam]

6 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

 

Managing your financial investments (even stock market trades) isnt considered work according to the labor and employment offices.. 

 

I would assume complex investing which requires a lot of daily / weekly workload, arb trading, things like that to fall over the line. 

 

I havent bought or sold a product in 2 or 3 years so cant see where it would even raise its head. 

 

Thai law does not differentiate whether a foreigner works once in a while or continously. and if labour/employment authorities think managing investment is not hard work that's good for me

[Naam]

6 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Thats factually incorrect if he is working in any form to generate that income which he wishes to become tax free for. 

i describe reality. period!

[thaibook]

I cannot authoritatively address the aspect of what is needed to pay taxes in Thailand, but if you are trying to avoid French taxes I may.  In France the length of time spent in the country is not the critical factor.  You may choose your country of fiscal domicile.  Of course you will need to be able to support your statement.  If you are not fiscally resident in France, you will be taxed (base rate of 20%) - and pay social charges (taxes that dare not say their name at a combined rate of 15.5%) - on all income earned in France but will not be subject to French taxes on foreign income.  You will also lose right to health-care and other benefits related to its social security system.

 

[frog555]

1 hour ago, thaibook said:

  If you are not fiscally resident in France, you will be taxed (base rate of 20%) - and pay social charges (taxes that dare not say their name at a combined rate of 15.5%) - on all income earned in France but will not be subject to French taxes on foreign income.

Do you mean about sells done from abroad ?

Or incomes such as renting a house in France ?

[LivinLOS]

13 hours ago, Naam said:

 

Thai law does not differentiate whether a foreigner works once in a while or continously. and if labour/employment authorities think managing investment is not hard work that's good for me

 

While I agree, the law makes no difference between work for one minute or work for 100 hours a week.. There is a cross over. 

 

You are allowed to 'manage your investment' without a work permit.. The classic you can sit on the outside of your bar, telling staff what to do, but cannot show them what to do.. Or in another realm you can discuss with an architect, discuss with contractors, and build a building without a work permit.. You cannot be your own building manager tho. The unnamed cross over is evident where you can apparently tell staff what to do as above, but cannot sit in an office, with 10 staff, telling them what to do all day. That has changed from telling them what to do, to active management. 

 

Labor department has constantly said that to own (and as part of the process buy and sell) stocks bonds or financial assets does not require a work permit. Somewhere in there is the cross over from investor to 'trader' which is considered work. 

 

I have also never been able to get anyone to answer why futures trading is considered legal here, and spread betting isnt as its gambling. if one form of speculation is gambling they both are or neither. I would guess its a combination of ignorance and 'betting' in the name but still I have never been able to get an answer. 

[LivinLOS]

13 hours ago, Naam said:

i describe reality. period!

 

You said it was 'legal'.. Please explain. 

 

It isnt. Period. 

 

Here its easy to break the law and often pay no penalty.. I rode around yesterday without my helmet on.. I dont for a second claim it was legal. 

Edited January 11, 2017 by LivinLOS

[rwdrwdrwd]

On 1/10/2017 at 1:28 PM, frog555 said:

 

"because all you have to do is not remit the money this year, and its not taxed.. How anyone defines which money you own in a bank account is this years dollars and which is last years dollars, please explain to me. "

 

I have just read a documentation about this point. 

I find it surprising. It would just need to wait for 1 year and these dividends would not be taxed.

 

The matter for me is that I would prefer to pay the tax in Thailand than in my own country.

 

 

Just for clarity - you can't keep the money in a company account for a year and then pay dividends to Thailand and have it tax free. You need to receive the income as an individual somewhere other than Thailand (and that does not levy tax on foreign income of non residents) and hold it there until the next Jan 1st year before sending it to Thailand. Personal account in Singapore would work.

Edited January 12, 2017 by rwdrwdrwd

[Naam]

6 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

You said it was 'legal'.. Please explain. 

explain why you don't use reading glasses! i never referred to his work. and i'm out of here now as my time is too precious to discuss work permits.

[LivinLOS]

His plan to reside in Thailand while working for his offshore company is not "workable and legal". 

 

It may be workable.. Its just not legal. 

Edited January 12, 2017 by LivinLOS

[frog555]

41 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

His plan to reside in Thailand while working for his offshore company is not "workable and legal". 

 

It may be workable.. Its just not legal. 

 

What you say makes sense.

 

I am looking for a legal solution.

What about having a company in Thailand doing real work for the offshore company in Hong Kong ? Which would enable me to have a work permit. The offshore company would be billed by the thai company.

 

[LivinLOS]

Sure.. Contact Ozzi at Iglu. 

 

http://iglu.net/freelancers-can-work-in-thailand/ 

 

Red carpet treatment.. Lawyers do everything visa, immigration, work permit, taxes, social contributions, healthcare, etc etc etc

[frog555]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

Sure.. Contact Ozzi at Iglu. 

 

http://iglu.net/freelancers-can-work-in-thailand/ 

 

Red carpet treatment.. Lawyers do everything visa, immigration, work permit, taxes, social contributions, healthcare, etc etc etc

 

I mean a real company.

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, frog555 said:

 

I mean a real company.

 

 

I dont understand Iglu is a real company.. They do all kinds of software development and projects, I understand its the largest employer of Finns in the country.. They recently raised multi million venture capital on a mobile app they are producing.. 

 

What do you mean by 'real' ?

 

They do exactly what you propose.. Bill the client(s), employ you.. 

[frog555]

59 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

 

I dont understand Iglu is a real company.. They do all kinds of software development and projects, I understand its the largest employer of Finns in the country.. They recently raised multi million venture capital on a mobile app they are producing.. 

 

What do you mean by 'real' ?

 

They do exactly what you propose.. Bill the client(s), employ you.. 

 

I will study the case to register my own company.

[LivinLOS]

4 Thai staff per perk permit if extensions are expected.. Corporation tax, income tax, accounts etc etc etc.. 

 

Unless of course you can go like iglu and register under BOI (unsure of that means a 40 million baht investment, I heard that number for BOI registration at one time). 

 

When you factor iglu is 30% of 60k a month at a minimum your talking the above versus 18k a month.. hardly a sensible route. 

[frog555]

1 minute ago, LivinLOS said:

4 Thai staff per perk permit if extensions are expected.. Corporation tax, income tax, accounts etc etc etc.. 

 

Unless of course you can go like iglu and register under BOI (unsure of that means a 40 million baht investment, I heard that number for BOI registration at one time). 

 

When you factor iglu is 30% of 60k a month at a minimum your talking the above versus 18k a month.. hardly a sensible route. 

 

Thank you for these informations, and having let me know about Iglu.

[jojothai]

On 1/10/2017 at 8:22 PM, frog555 said:

 

In case of an offshore company, there is no tax in Hong Kong.

Hi Frog555.

Understood. That’s the logic I was thinking. Tax free does seem possible, but do your homework.

 

I believe that offshore companies are subject to tax if the earnings / profits are derived from Hong Kong. Offshore Income Tax Exemption in Hong Kong is a specialist subject elsewhere, not for this forum. Better stick to the question of Thai tax residence.

I myself would like to understand the situation here as well as I can.

 

In my earlier post I mentioned the Common Reporting Standard (CRS) because the days of hiding income offshore are starting to come to a close. You will need to read up on the requirements.

The CRS is implemented already last year in many western countries for compliance in 2017. Other countries including China (+ HK) are supposed to get the declarations this year for 2018. If your money is going mainly through Hong Kong offshore banks then they should start to ask you for the info this year. You need to consider what you are going to declare to your offshore bank / financial institutions for tax residence. To do so you are expected to quote a tax reference.

I thought that may be a reason you were looking at Thai residence.

 

From what has been stated in the thread you should be able to get tax residence in Thailand by being here 6 months of the year, and doing the declaration should give you a tax reference.

As others have noted you restrict remittances of earned income within the tax year so that you minimise what is declared as income in Thailand.

Be careful that you check France and other countries for their restrictions on days stayed there, etc and check the double taxation treaties.

 

However, do not expect a free ride from the Thai tax authorities. For you to file the tax return, they may want to ask questions about the income coming from outside. You also must anticipate that they could check out your residence to confirm that you are not working from Thailand.

As LivinLOS pointed out, you are not allowed to do so without a work permit.  Definitions of working in the thai labor law are vague. Some online definitions as follows:  "exerting effort", "employing knowledge", "whether or not for wages or other benefits", and I hear that it is based on what the individual is doing, not employment as in some other countries. The officials make their own judgement.

Internet posts suggest that it is rare for the authorities to pursue foreigners on this point but you need to understand the law. There are large fines / deportation.

[frog555]

29 minutes ago, jojothai said:

Hi Frog555.

 

Understood. That’s the logic I was thinking. Tax free does seem possible, but do your homework.

 

 

 

I believe that offshore companies are subject to tax if the earnings / profits are derived from Hong Kong. Offshore Income Tax Exemption in Hong Kong is a specialist subject elsewhere, not for this forum. Better stick to the question of Thai tax residence.

 

I myself would like to understand the situation here as well as I can.

 

 

 

In my earlier post I mentioned the Common Reporting Standard (CRS) because the days of hiding income offshore are starting to come to a close. You will need to read up on the requirements.

 

The CRS is implemented already last year in many western countries for compliance in 2017. Other countries including China (+ HK) are supposed to get the declarations this year for 2018. If your money is going mainly through Hong Kong offshore banks then they should start to ask you for the info this year. You need to consider what you are going to declare to your offshore bank / financial institutions for tax residence. To do so you are expected to quote a tax reference.

 

I thought that may be a reason you were looking at Thai residence.

 

 

 

From what has been stated in the thread you should be able to get tax residence in Thailand by being here 6 months of the year, and doing the declaration should give you a tax reference.

 

As others have noted you restrict remittances of earned income within the tax year so that you minimise what is declared as income in Thailand.

 

Be careful that you check France and other countries for their restrictions on days stayed there, etc and check the double taxation treaties.

 

 

 

However, do not expect a free ride from the Thai tax authorities. For you to file the tax return, they may want to ask questions about the income coming from outside. You also must anticipate that they could check out your residence to confirm that you are not working from Thailand.

 

As LivinLOS pointed out, you are not allowed to do so without a work permit.  Definitions of working in the thai labor law are vague. Some online definitions as follows:  "exerting effort", "employing knowledge", "whether or not for wages or other benefits", and I hear that it is based on what the individual is doing, not employment as in some other countries. The officials make their own judgement.

 

Internet posts suggest that it is rare for the authorities to pursue foreigners on this point but you need to understand the law. There are large fines / deportation.

Thank you for this comment.

I agree with you and LivinLOS.

 

I will do the necessary to get a work permit. I will consider first the solution offered by Iglu.

Also, make the situation clear and sure about taxes thanks to french and thai tax lawyers.

 

[Naam]

Quote

jojothai said

In my earlier post I mentioned the Common Reporting Standard (CRS) because the days of hiding income offshore are starting to come to a close. You will need to read up on the requirements.

there is no need to hide anything if you live in a country that does not levy any income tax and/or has not ratified the CRS agreement.

[jojothai]

On 1/13/2017 at 8:45 AM, Naam said:

there is no need to hide anything if you live in a country that does not levy any income tax and/or has not ratified the CRS agreement.

 

Thanks - very relevant since Thailand has not ratified the agreement.

 

The consideration for the op will be what he declares for the offshore bank CRS reporting. (presumed Hong Kong)

When they ask for CRS info, he  should be able to state  residence in Thailand and they cannot insist on getting any tax reference?

Perhaps Thailand may become a good choice for hiding things.

[Naam]

22 minutes ago, jojothai said:

The consideration for the op will be what he declares for the offshore bank CRS reporting. (presumed Hong Kong)

When they ask for CRS info, he  should be able to state  residence in Thailand and they cannot insist on getting any tax reference?

the OP has to satisfy the bank's demand concerning his tax residence, that's all. if the tax residence is in a country that has not ratified the CRS no info is exchanged.

[jonw8uk]

8 hours ago, Naam said:

the OP has to satisfy the bank's demand concerning his tax residence, that's all. if the tax residence is in a country that has not ratified the CRS no info is exchanged.

 

I can confirm this. HSBC expat accepted when i did not provide a TIN for thailand because they arent (yet) invlolved in that info exchange. 

[jojothai]

16 hours ago, jonw8uk said:

 

I can confirm this. HSBC expat accepted when i did not provide a TIN for thailand because they arent (yet) invlolved in that info exchange. 

 

thanks. Helps understand how to proceed. I may need to do the same myself.

[BEVUP]

On 1/10/2017 at 11:44 PM, Naam said:

he does not seek to pay taxes here! he seeks to become a tax resident of Thailand and avoid taxes in France as well a in Thailand.

Exactly, he,s not worried about all this company stuff

Example : Front page news Auss - American rig workers change roster to 183 days in Auss waters to avoid paying 50 perc Tax to basically Nill, Whilst they are bending the Gov over by hiring under special work Visas ( apparently no skilled workers in Auss )

[Naam]

1 hour ago, BEVUP said:

Exactly, he,s not worried about all this company stuff

Example : Front page news Auss - American rig workers change roster to 183 days in Auss waters to avoid paying 50 perc Tax to basically Nill, Whilst they are bending the Gov over by hiring under special work Visas ( apparently no skilled workers in Auss )

and he doesn't want a work permit, no matter how hard some people are trying to "sell" one.