TM30...again

[siam2007]

On 14/01/2017 at 5:11 PM, Lovethailandelite said:

Stop being so Paranoid! It was happening long before I went there. If you really want to know Chang Mai revived this old law from 1970's months and months ago. Maybe you should learn the Thai Immigration laws before you hit the keyboard?

 

I am afraid, but it is indeed utter madness. No country of touristic importance worldwide treats their long stay guests in a humiliating way like that. My friends in Malaysia, Cambodia, Philippines and Vietnam are having a good laugh when I tell them the latest adventures of us long-stayers in Thailand

[Maestro]

13 hours ago, Lovethailandelite said:

If the hotel  fails to report, you become liable.

 

About this, your immigration officer was definitely wrong. He would also be wrong if he refused you an extension of stay for the reason that the hotel failed to report your arrival with a TM.30.

[tgeezer]

The leaflet does not lay it out quite plainly at all, it merely summarises the Act in respect of Rule 37 and 38. There is absolutely nothing about the visitor being responsible for failure to comply with 38 (TM 30 ) . In fact the camparing the amount of fines, 5000 plus 200 per day until done for the tourist 37 (2), compared with a simple 2000 for 38 would indicate that 38 was intended for a Thai citizen.
The leaflet is issued by Immigration Bangkok entitled "Coming across wrongdoing, Know the signs." then a list of situations.
Foreigners illegally entering the country
Foreigners being hired or hireing without permission.
Foreigners begging, sexwork, fishing.
Signs of drugs
Criminal activity across the country.
There is the official logo on the right and telephone numbers of regional Immigration police on the left.
Seems like a strange thing to be waving to justify fining an OAP for not reporting her husband's presence in their home.




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[Lovethailandelite]

6 minutes ago, Maestro said:

 

About this, your immigration officer was definitely wrong. He would also be wrong if he refused you an extension of stay for the reason that the hotel failed to report your arrival with a TM.30.

Lets put it this way. I was on a loser anyway for failing to report myself in my own property. On the other hand, I would put every Baht in my bank accounts here which amount to a good few million, on you not winning the argument with them should you find yourself in the same situation. After being in and out of this country for the best part of 35 years, I have learnt that there will only be one winner and won't be you 
Me, I just smile and pay up. I am not short of 4000 bht in order to have a peaceful existence here. Stirring immigration up has this nasty habit of coming back and biting you firmly on the arse at a later date. Of course, it's entirely up to others how they play it but myself, i'm all for the easiest possible.
Anybody translated the images of the leaflet I scanned in yet?

[Lovethailandelite]

12 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

The leaflet does not lay it out quite plainly at all, it merely summarises the Act in respect of Rule 37 and 38. There is absolutely nothing about the visitor being responsible for failure to comply with 38 (TM 30 ) . In fact the camparing the amount of fines, 5000 plus 200 per day until done for the tourist 37 (2), compared with a simple 2000 for 38 would indicate that 38 was intended for a Thai citizen.
The leaflet is issued by Immigration Bangkok entitled "Coming across wrongdoing, Know the signs." then a list of situations.
Foreigners illegally entering the country
Foreigners being hired or hireing without permission.
Foreigners begging, sexwork, fishing.
Signs of drugs
Criminal activity across the country.
There is the official logo on the right and telephone numbers of regional Immigration police on the left.
Seems like a strange thing to be waving to justify fining an OAP for not reporting her husband's presence in their home.




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The leaflet is issued by Immigration Division 3 as it plainly states. Division 1 is Bangkok. Division 3 includes....

 

Immigration Division 3

1. Ayutthaya (พระนครศรีอยุธยา) - - - Ang Thong (อ่างทอง) Suphanburi (สุพรรณบุรี)

2. Chachoengsao (ฉะเชิงเทรา) - - - Nakhon Nayok (นครนายก) Prachinburi (ปราจีนบุรี)

3. Chanthaburi (จันทบุรี)

4. Chonburi (ชลบุรี)

5. Kanchanaburi (กาญจนบุรี)

6. Lopburi (ลพบุรี) - - - Saraburi (สระบุรี) Chainat (ชัยนาท) Sing Buri (สิงห์บุรี)

7. Nakhon Pathom (นครปฐม) - - - Ratchaburi (ราชบุรี)

8. Nonthaburi (นนทบุรี)

9. Pathumthani (ปทุมธานี)

10. Prachuap Khiri Khan (ประจวบคีรีขันธ์) - - - Phetchaburi (เพชรบุรี)

11. Rayong (ระนอง)

12. Samut Prakan (สมุทรปราการ)

13. Samut Sakhon (สมุทรสาคร) - - - Samut Songkhram (สมุทรสงคราม)

14. Srakaeo (สระแก้ว)

15. Trat (ตราด)

[tgeezer]

Maybe issued is the wrong word, I assume that it was the address under the report Number 1178 which is Div 3 .... Bangkok.
That makes sense to me because I see Bangkok as "Head Office".



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[Lovethailandelite]

1 hour ago, tgeezer said:

Maybe issued is the wrong word, I assume that it was the address under the report Number 1178 which is Div 3 .... Bangkok.
That makes sense to me because I see Bangkok as "Head Office".



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Fact is, you can pull the wording around anyway you interpret it but at the end of the day it leaves 2 choices. Comply and pay and then be legal and carry on complying to stay legal in the boundary's they set. This in turn means you have no issues with reports, extensions and any other dealings with Immigration. The second option is don't comply and take whatever comes of it which in a lot of reported cases is a refusal of Visa extensions. I doubt putting yourself on overstay and having all sorts of problems attempting to stay here will teach Immigration a lesson?
That's about it really. As they say 'The choice is yours'.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Lovethailandelite

[tgeezer]

I don't think that you will have any more issues now that you are on an extension. I would say that you got off very lightly. To stay in your condo. on each of 15 visits unreported would be 30,000Bt .



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[Lovethailandelite]

10 hours ago, tgeezer said:

I don't think that you will have any more issues now that you are on an extension. I would say that you got off very lightly. To stay in your condo. on each of 15 visits unreported would be 30,000Bt .



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I am not on an extension. I am on a PE visa which allows me a 12 month stay on each and every entry. I won't have anymore problems as I will just comply with there rule and report every time I leave and return to Chon Buri province and each and every time I leave and re-enter the country. That is what they require and it don't just apply to Jomtien immigration either. I will also insist on a hotel reporting me and ask for a receipt to show they have complied. If the hotel don't want to do it, as has been proved most are not, then I will phone immigration and report myself or report myself to the nearest police station. As for being lucky with getting away with only a 4,000Bt I agree which is why in my first post when immigration asked me if I would like them to go back further than 5 years on my computerized history which I saw with my own eyes is all there, I said no, 4000Bt is reasonable enough to pay as I firmly believe the fine can be applied for every period of non reporting in the past and back dated accordingly. In my case that would amount to quite a few hundreds of thousands of Baht.

[tgeezer]

In my case if they made me responsible for TM 30 they would be able to fine me only for each entry once a year for eleven years 22000Bt. I wouldn't be admitting to any trips up country and any they knew about would be because the accomodation had reported me so not due a fine. I guess that it could be argued that every report away entails a failed report on return so the less hotel reports the better!
I agree that we shouldn't really concern ourselves with the law only with what Immigration demands of us but what are the requirements of a PE visa apart from reporting your whereabouts and re-reporting if in the country more than ninety days?


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[Lovethailandelite]

1 hour ago, tgeezer said:

In my case if they made me responsible for TM 30 they would be able to fine me only for each entry once a year for eleven years 22000Bt. I wouldn't be admitting to any trips up country and any they knew about would be because the accomodation had reported me so not due a fine. I guess that it could be argued that every report away entails a failed report on return so the less hotel reports the better!
I agree that we shouldn't really concern ourselves with the law only with what Immigration demands of us but what are the requirements of a PE visa apart from reporting your whereabouts and re-reporting if in the country more than ninety days?


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If a hotel reports you in a province which isn't the one you reside in, you will need to report on your return or it is certainly another fine.
The requirements you mentioned are the only conditions you would need to abide too if holding a PE Visa. If you live in Pattaya, Bangkok, Phuket or Chang Mai then Thailand Elite who run the scheme will do the report for you free of charge if you wish them too. You could of course cross a boarder and return ( Land or air) before your 90 day report is due and 'Re-set' the clock but now a TM30 report is required anyway, that seems rather pointless. TM30 or 90 day report you still need to do one or the other.

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

If a hotel reports you in a province which isn't the one you reside in, you will need to report on your return or it is certainly another fine.

That is not correct. There is no need to report every time you travel around the country.

[Lovethailandelite]

9 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That is not correct. There is no need to report every time you travel around the country.

If you live in Chaing Mai, Chon Buri or Ubon for example you most certainly do. Ask those that are being fined and what they are being told they MUST do in order not to be fined again. I never stated 'ALL' immigration offices as they are not all implementing it...Yet.

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

If you live in Chaing Mai, Chon Buri or Ubon for example you most certainly do. Ask those that are being fined and what they are being told they MUST do in order not to be fined again. I never stated 'ALL' immigration offices as they are not all implementing it...Yet.

I have done 9 extension here at Ubon immigration and have never been asked for a TM30. I have stayed in hotels that I am certain have reported me and still no request for a TM30. I have friends here that have only been asked to do a report when they re-entered the country and that is it never after staying in a hotel.

[Lovethailandelite]

The major issue with it is that there is absolutely no consistency with how it is being implemented from province to province. I wish they would either fine everybody or get rid of it. At least then we would all know what we are doing on a day daily basis. Nobody even knows what those hotels that do report report people are actually doing since the system is down. Are they manually reporting or not bothering? Nobody knows.

[Lovethailandelite]

Just now, ubonjoe said:

I have done 9 extension here at Ubon immigration and have never been asked for a TM30. I have stayed in hotels that I am certain have reported me and still no request for a TM30. I have friends here that have only been asked to do a report when they re-entered the country and that is it never after staying in a hotel.

Yes I am not disputing that. The same in Jomtien, hundreds fined and hundreds not asked or fined. I have friends in Ubon too that are having to travel and report back in on a TM30 after being fined the first time. As I said, no consistency of how it's being implemented. What else can you say about it?

[ubonjoe]

8 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Yes I am not disputing that. The same in Jomtien, hundreds fined and hundreds not asked or fined. I have friends in Ubon too that are having to travel and report back in on a TM30 after being fined the first time. As I said, no consistency of how it's being implemented. What else can you say about it?

If they have left the country then they may need to report as I wrote but not for traveling within the country and staying at hotels.

On very pendant offices want one if you stay in hotel because they check the database to find out it you did. The TM30 reports do not change your permanent address they are are kept in a different database.

[Lovethailandelite]

6 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

If they have left the country then they may need to report as I wrote but not for traveling within the country and staying at hotels.

On very pendant offices want one if you stay in hotel because they check the database to find out it they did. The TM30 reports do not change your permanent address are are kept in different database.

The way Jomtien explained is they want you to report back to where you are living. If for instance I was reported in a hotel in say Phuket. I would then be on the system as being in Phuket but have in fact come home to Chon Buri. The whole idea of it appears to be that Immigration want to know exactly where you are.

[wobalt]

Yes I am not disputing that. The same in Jomtien, hundreds fined and hundreds not asked or fined. I have friends in Ubon too that are having to travel and report back in on a TM30 after being fined the first time. As I said, no consistency of how it's being implemented. What else can you say about it?

Somehow weird and confusing! I understand from your post that you are owner of a condo? And you went to Jomtien immigration "to sort what out??" You are on a PE visa, why do you not inform the Elite visa guys about the TM30 requirements?

[Lovethailandelite]

1 minute ago, wobalt said:

Somehow weird and confusing! I understand from your post that you are owner of a condo? And you went to Jomtien immigration "to sort what out??" You are on a PE visa, why do you not inform the Elite visa guys about the TM30 requirements?

It has nothing to do with TE regarding the reporting of a TM30. I went to Jomtien to file my own TM30, yes I could of just left it until I got caught. That's not how I work though. I like to be 100% legal.

[tgeezer]

Going back to your original post I think that I misunderstood. If you had been on a PE visa going in and out, when the IO asked about frequency of visits and TM30 reports why didn't you refer her to Thailand Elite?
I wondered if people paying 'agents' decided to stop using agents there would be trouble, if in your case trying to drop Thailand elite was similar in that it also represents a loss of income to the counry.


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[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

The way Jomtien explained is they want you to report back to where you are living. If for instance I was reported in a hotel in say Phuket. I would then be on the system as being in Phuket but have in fact come home to Chon Buri. The whole idea of it appears to be that Immigration want to know exactly where you are.

As I wrote they have to check a database for TM30 reports done by hotels and etc. They do have a record of where you have been but most offices will not take the time to check when you have to do something at immigration.

[wobalt]

So then I understand you filed the TM30 because you stay in a condo owned by you? In that case of cause you might be responsible to report it and to pay the fine.

[Lovethailandelite]

Just now, ubonjoe said:

As I wrote they have to check a database for TM30 reports done by hotels and etc. They do have a record of where you have been but most offices will not take the time to check when you have to do something at immigration.

Jomtien are checking. That's who I have to deal with. Hence people are being fined and not only the one time. I believe Chang Mai are strict on it too and wanting people to report back when away from the province. I have never dealt with them but I read there forum. They actually appear to be hotter on it than Jomtien. At the end of the day, it's up to the individual how they want to play this but I am not in the mind of paying them 4,000Bt on more than one occasion.

[tgeezer]

I think that the problem is comparing experiences when obviously everbody is an individual at the Immigration level. If you are a 'tourist' with a condo, car, dog etc. and base yourself in Thailand you can't be expected to be considered the same type of tourist who comes here temporarily and stays in hotels for 30 days.
edit: in spite of the fact that each of your many visas says you are that sort of tourist!

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[Lovethailandelite]

Just now, wobalt said:

So then I understand you filed the TM30 because you stay in a condo owned by you? In that case of cause you might be responsible to report it and to pay the fine.

Not only owners but renters as they are considered to be 'The Housemaster'. Then there is the matter of hotels that had failed to report me. Allegedly I become responsible for that scenario too as It's my job 'Allegedly' to make sure I am reported.  

[Lovethailandelite]

1 minute ago, tgeezer said:

I think that the problem is comparing experiences when obviously everbody is an individual at the Immigration level. If you are a 'tourist' with a condo, car, dog etc. and base yourself in Thailand you can't be expected to be considered the same type of tourist who comes here temporarily and stays in hotels for 30 days.
edit: in spite of the fact that each of your many visas says you are that sort of tourist!

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The issue comes for Tourists when they try to extend a 30 day visa exempt entry. As is being reported.

[Lovethailandelite]

As I have said previously, I was quite happy to avoid doing 90 day reports either by myself doing them or TE doing them for me. I was happy to fly out from 15 minutes down the road from U-Tapao airport for a few days or a week or 2 away. I have loads of time on my hands nowdays to do as I please. Now that door has been shut by needing to do a TM30 report on my return. As the Thais like to say 'Same same'.

[willyumcr]

I remember posting 6 months ago after feeling ill I paid an agent 400 baht to do my 90 day report. One of the posters commented how stupid I was as that was more money than a Thai makes in a day. Well, I just did it again and no problems. No tm30, no tm28, no waiting in line, no fines, etc.  just passport. Great system!

[Lovethailandelite]

20 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

Going back to your original post I think that I misunderstood. If you had been on a PE visa going in and out, when the IO asked about frequency of visits and TM30 reports why didn't you refer her to Thailand Elite?
I wondered if people paying 'agents' decided to stop using agents there would be trouble, if in your case trying to drop Thailand elite was similar in that it also represents a loss of income to the counry.


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They never asked why I was going in and out just stating that I had been and I had never done a TM30 or been reported for 3 years. Having a PE visa makes no difference to anything. It's just a 5 year ME Visa at the end of the day.