In the songtaew I asked if it was going to the สถานี คนทรง but it wasn't understood. I tried pronouncing according to Paiboon+:  kǒn-sòng

When they finally got it they said it like

ขุน รง  kǔn-sòng

I think.

 

When I listen to Paiboon it may sound like kʉ̌n-sòng. ??  (ขึน รง maybe?)

 

I believe sometimes they play with foreigner. When they don't understand

ก๋วยเตี๋ยว

in the noodle shop, they just don't want to, I believe 

 

They may have considered the question stupid since we had almost arrived there,  which I didn't realize.

 

Usually they understand what I say. But my understanding of what people say is  very poor, so I must find an angle on that. I don't interact in Thai language so much, yet. My understanding is too poor.

 

When I used kǒn-sòng and they didn't understand, we're they playing with me or should it be kǔn-sòng ?

Or do I misread Paiboon?

(I read Paiboon "o" like o in "a lot", British English, I think)

 

(In Rayong now)

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 20179 yr by thailandsgreat

If you want to get to the bus station in any Thai provincial capital, you're probably better off just telling the songtaew/tuktuk/etc. driver บขส (pronounce each letter as a syllable)...understood universally and easy to pronounce.

It's spelled สถานีขนส่ง.

It's pronounced saˑthǎaˑnii khǒnˑsòŋ.

 

 

I have always used สถานีรถเมล์ 

Sounds like it might not be correct but it worked.

 

 

 

If you want to get to the bus station in any Thai provincial capital, you're probably better off just telling the songtaew/tuktuk/etc. driver บขส (pronounce each letter as a syllable)...understood universally and easy to pronounce.

Thank you. That's a good fallback. I knew it vaguely, but it didn't come to mind. I guess it would be

bɔ̀kɔ̀sɔ̀ in Paiboon+ ?

(Trying to write it out in Thai, maybe the following?

เบาะ เขาะ เสาะ )

It's spelled สถานีขนส่ง.

It's pronounced saˑthǎaˑnii khǒnˑsòŋ.

Thank you. I made a spelling error. My dictionary also says สถานีขนส่ง I still often misread tones and sometimes other sounds from the Thai script so I memorize from Paiboon+ sà~tǎa-nii kǒn-sòng What I was trying to say was "saˑthǎaˑnii khǒnˑsòŋ". I thought the o would be like either o in "He got a lot" but I must say, when they finally got it and repeated, the first o sounded like the oo in English moon, but shorter.

Yesterday I had problems accessing the site in the android app so I wrote the question from Android Chrome Browser. Some tags now show up in the app and garble that post. I stick with the app whenever I can.

thailandsgreat

If you are saying เบาะ เขาะ เสาะ this is incorrect and nobody will understand you.

 

You need to say บอ ขอ สอ, the long vowel.

thailandsgreat

If you are saying เบาะ เขาะ เสาะ this is incorrect and nobody will understand you.

 

You need to say บอ ขอ สอ, the long vowel.

Thanks. Then I can also say the

สอ ตอ มอ

which I think is immigration??

But last two visits were in Pattaya, where the motorbike drivers expect you to say "immigration".

Thanks. I appreciate the advice here.

18 minutes ago, thailandsgreat said:

Thanks. Then I can also say the

สอ ตอ มอ

which I think is immigration??

But last two visits were in Pattaya, where the motorbike drivers expect you to say "immigration".

Thanks. I appreciate the advice here.

For immigration I use ตอ มอ or กอ ตอ มอ, the กอ standing for กรม department. Does your สอ stand for สำนักงาน? I don't know which usage is more prevalent amongst native speakers.

31 minutes ago, Briggsy said:

For immigration I use ตอ มอ or กอ ตอ มอ, the กอ standing for กรม department. Does your สอ stand for สำนักงาน? I don't know which usage is more prevalent amongst native speakers.

Yes, it does. It is just something I picked up from the Internet, long time ago. I have not tried using it yet.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Edited January 17, 20179 yr by thailandsgreat

On 17.1.2017 at 6:41 AM, Oxx said:

It's spelled สถานีขนส่ง.

It's pronounced saˑthǎaˑnii khǒnˑsòŋ.

 

 

Click to listen:

saˑthǎaˑnii

http://www.clickthai-online.de/cgi-bin/playmp3.pl?334938

 

khǒnˑsòŋ

http://www.clickthai-online.de/cgi-bin/playmp3.pl?063081

 The OP is in Rayong , every provincial bus station is  pronounced  bor khor sor -  try to rise the tone on khor ( a soft k sound as in king) and sor as in sore 

 The OP is in Rayong , every provincial bus station is  pronounced  bor khor sor -  try to rise the tone on khor ( a soft k sound as in king) and sor as in sore 

Thanks. I am just trying out things from dictionaries.
I have tried to learn the Paiboon+ but I definitely sometimes doubt if I really got it.
The vowel of บอ ขอ สอ
I thought would be more like a in "father" which I don't think is like in sore??
But I am just learning these things.

So there would be a
บอ ขอ สอ ที่ หนึ่ง in the center
บอ ขอ สอ ที่ สอง outside the center?

 

Click to listen:

saˑthǎaˑnii

http://www.clickthai-online.de/cgi-bin/playmp3.pl?334938

 

khǒnˑsòŋ

http://www.clickthai-online.de/cgi-bin/playmp3.pl?063081

Thanks.

In kon-song, I think the vowels in the recording goes towards the vowel in ขุ , maybe the first more. But the recording sounds like what they said in the songtaew.

Really tricky. But hopefully not critical. They usually understand what I say. The opposite is the problem, for me.

7 hours ago, thailandsgreat said:

Thanks. I am just trying out things from dictionaries.
I have tried to learn the Paiboon+ but I definitely sometimes doubt if I really got it.
The vowel of บอ ขอ สอ
I thought would be more like a in "father" which I don't think is like in sore??
But I am just learning these things.

So there would be a
บอ ขอ สอ ที่ หนึ่ง in the center
บอ ขอ สอ ที่ สอง outside the center?

No, the sound is really like or believe me!  bore core sore 

They probably wouldn't say ที่หนึ่ง ที่สอง in my experience more likely to be บขสเก่า ( the old bus station for the one downtown ) and บขสใหม่ -new bus station for the one in the outskirts 

No, the sound is really like or believe me!  bore core sore 

They probably wouldn't say ที่หนึ่ง ที่สอง in my experience more likely to be บขสเก่า ( the old bus station for the one downtown ) and บขสใหม่ -new bus station for the one in the outskirts 

The new and the old. I knew it but had forgotten. That will be helpful, thanks.

I haven't got the vowel sounds straight. I always use Paiboon+ but sometimes I am not sure how to read it. Of course there is audio, but the phonetic writing helps memorizing the first time, for me.

Paiboon transcribes -อ as ɔɔ but to my ear it may have different sounds in different words:

ขอ kɔ̌ɔ like the a in "father"

บ่อยๆ bɔ̀i-bɔ̀i more open sound than "father" (but not quite as open as "Bye-bye!")

บอ ขอ สอ like "sore, more"

For reasons unknown to me, the -อ also becomes short in บ่อยๆ

why not write

เบ่าะยๆ

(I pass on the tone markers :) )

Can Thai people always read out a word properly when they have never heard the word before? (Going from script to phonetic?) (I know the two readings of มกรา but they are both correct.)

I apologize for the garbled text, it comes when I edit the post, sometimes.

6 minutes ago, thailandsgreat said:

The new and the old. I knew it but had forgotten. That will be helpful, thanks.

I haven't got the vowel sounds straight. I always use Paiboon+ but sometimes I am not sure how to read it. Of course there is audio, but the phonetic writing helps memorizing the first time, for me.

Paiboon transcribes -อ as ɔɔ but to my ear it may have different sounds in different words:

 

The tone, vowel length and absence/presence of a final consonant may affect how the vowel is pronounced.

ขอ kɔ̌ɔ like the a in "father"
บ่อยๆ bɔ̀i-bɔ̀i more open sound than "father"
บอ ขอ สอ like "sore, more"

 

Using English words and sounds is flawed due to the regional and national differences between Australian/British/American/Glaswegian accents. In addition not all sounds in Thai are present in English and vice versa. For vowels you need to consider what the lips and tongue are doing and how they are positioned.

For reasons unknown to me, the -อ also becomes short in บ่อยๆ
why not write
เบ่าะยๆ
(I pass on the tone markers :) )

 

The word บ่อย contains the dipthong -อย. It should be considered as a dipthong vowel in its own right and not compared to the pure vowel -อ

Can Thai people always read out a word properly when they have never heard the word before? (Going from script to phonetic?) (I know the two readings of มกรา but they are both correct.) Pretty much yes.

Hope this helps.

I hope the Mods forgive me for putting my replies in the post as I don't know how to split up one quote.

Good point by Briggsy about the change in vowel sound with the addition of ย turning it into a dipthong 

plenty of words with that sound รอย ร้อย ลอย บ่อย ซอย etc all with the pronunciation of oy as in boy, toy etc.

but without ย the sound remains as or  ie บอก บอล จอ ขอ บอด etc

The short, implicit vowel sound of Thai transcribed as /o/ is quite different to English /o/ as in cot,  even in British English.  It's the short version of the Thai vowel sound written with โ and conventionally equated with the vowel of coat.  It is quite close to the vowel sound of English hood, and I sometimes hear it as that vowel when my wife is talking.

The short, implicit vowel sound of Thai transcribed as /o/ is quite different to English /o/ as in cot,  even in British English.  It's the short version of the Thai vowel sound written with โ and conventionally equated with the vowel of coat.  It is quite close to the vowel sound of English hood, and I sometimes hear it as that vowel when my wife is talking.

Is that in American English? I think this lady pronounces coat and hood with different vowel sounds. I believe it is British English.

8 hours ago, thailandsgreat said:

Is that in American English? I think this lady pronounces coat and hood with different vowel sounds. I believe it is British English.

 

British English.  English ears tend to be particularly good at Identifying which English vowel was uttered, and not so good at picking up the exact sound uttered.  Normally I just pigeonhole Thai /o/ with English /ɒ/, and so am not so good as distinguishing Thai /ɔ/ and /o/.  When I listened to Daniel Jones's pronunciation of the cardinal vowels, I was surprised that I registered his [o] as being [ʊ] and his [e] as being [ɪ].

Note that English top is transliterated into Thai as ท็อป.

Edited January 21, 20179 yr by Richard W
Missing italiciation.

The new and the old. I knew it but had forgotten. That will be helpful, thanks.

I haven't got the vowel sounds straight. I always use Paiboon+ but sometimes I am not sure how to read it. Of course there is audio, but the phonetic writing helps memorizing the first time, for me.

Paiboon transcribes -อ as ɔɔ but to my ear it may have different sounds in different words:

ขอ kɔ̌ɔ like the a in "father"

บ่อยๆ bɔ̀i-bɔ̀i more open sound than "father" (but not quite as open as "Bye-bye!")

บอ ขอ สอ like "sore, more"

For reasons unknown to me, the -อ also becomes short in บ่อยๆ

why not write

เบ่าะยๆ

(I pass on the tone markers :) )

Can Thai people always read out a word properly when they have never heard the word before? (Going from script to phonetic?) (I know the two readings of มกรา but they are both correct.)

I apologize for the garbled text, it comes when I edit the post, sometimes.

I can't resist pointing out that when you learn to read Thai you must forget the English comparisons, "you say potato and I say potato" only makes sense of you learn to use some standard form of phonetics, unless you have a teacher, if you have a teacher, make it a Thai then you can learn า as in บาท.

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Today I asked a lady in the hotel reception in Rayong to say บอ ขอ สอ

It is definitely easy to mishear, but I felt sure it sounded much more like the a in father than the o in "bore core sore". (British English)

I am sorry I can still only give English "equivalents". Thanks for pointing out the shortcomings of this. I never learnt the IPA properly. (Maybe just got confused from different, similar systems for other languages.)

Maybe I can find a recording later.

I have very little experience hearing Thai so I just come here to ask questions and appreciate the pointers given.

In Thai you add อ when you read out isolated consonants. In English you do it differently for different letters. You would not say "Let's switch on "see nee nee" (CNN) to hear what Trump is up to."

Here is audio. My ears are not trained on Thai yet, but today I think I heard
ba(r) ca(r) s(c)a(r)
not really
bo(re) co(re) so(re)
for บอ ขอ สอ
Is it possible some Thai (Rayong) say this or did I mishear?

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 20179 yr by thailandsgreat

Unfortunately I can't get the sound for some reason but you covered it earlier, for abbreviations you just say the letters. There is no magic to it.
Post Office is Pee. Oh or maybe peo oe. Sometime after I left school they thought it too difficult for kids to learn A,bee, See. and be expected to spell words like, and, bun and car, so they dumbed down to Ah ba ca. These later classes say 'haitch whereas I say 'aitch'.
However I digress. Thai credits its kids with more intelligence so they didn't change, every consonant is said on its own is said with the vowel อ. If some people sound like they are saying "a" don't sweat it. Remember อ is อ there is no ending to it, the mouth is open the tongue is natural and the lips are rounded, once the sound starts the mouth, tongue and lips all remain where they are until you run out of breath, that is the nature of pure vowels of which there are nine in Thai.


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5 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

Unfortunately I can't get the sound for some reason but you covered it earlier, for abbreviations you just say the letters. There is no magic to it.
Post Office is Pee. Oh or maybe peo oe. Sometime after I left school they thought it too difficult for kids to learn A,bee, See. and be expected to spell words like, and, bun and car, so they dumbed down to Ah ba ca. These later classes say 'haitch whereas I say 'aitch'.
However I digress. Thai credits its kids with more intelligence so they didn't change, every consonant is said on its own is said with the vowel อ. If some people sound like they are saying "a" don't sweat it. Remember อ is อ there is no ending to it, the mouth is open the tongue is natural and the lips are rounded, once the sound starts the mouth, tongue and lips all remain where they are until you run out of breath, that is the nature of pure vowels of which there are nine in Thai.


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The red bit is not correct. As shown on this website with สระ ออ, the tongue is in a low position. My own opinion is that with สระ ออ, the lips are not so rounded. This is in contrast to สระ โอ. The website shows them both as rounded lips. I am not sure they are equivalent in this characteristic.

 

But as you say, the OP has to play around with producing sounds until he is understood by native speakers.

You are correct I have a book too, I didn't refer to it because I thought that no one would notice!
The book has ห่อกลม for lips in both โ and อ .
Tongue ส่วนหลังลดค่ำกว่าขณะที่ออกเสียง โอ which is ส่วนหลังกระดกขึ้นสูงแต่ต่ำกว่าขณะออกเสียงอุ
I recommend You Tube, all it takes is to type สระ or พยัญชนะ and there you have kids screaming out or singing it all.


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Fortunately they usually understand what I say, but the opposite has been the problem, so far. But for simple topics it has started to work a little, sometimes. I eat in ordinary Thai restaurants every day, so I have worked on that vocabulary and can often reply to the questions they have about my order. It also helps getting socially accepted there, I believe.

There is mouth gymnastics involved in words like บ่อย๒ or ค่อย๒

Mouth quickly opens and tongue falls down for the อ. More mouth gymnastics than the English "Bye-bye!", saying the word "boy" quickly, a couple of times, or saying "boycott". I remember finding this strange when I started memorizing Thai words.

I can't find a Thai repetition caracter in the Samsung keyboard so I put the number two instead. They look similar. I don't know if that is correct. Young people do that in text messaging in English "Bye2".

On 1/24/2017 at 6:40 PM, thailandsgreat said:

Here is audio. My ears are not trained on Thai yet, but today I think I heard
ba(r) ca(r) s(c)a(r)
not really
bo(re) co(re) so(re)
for บอ ขอ สอ
Is it possible some Thai (Rayong) say this or did I mishear?

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

Those examples are American English - try saying  using English English  bore caw saw   ie claw law -especially the last one which means handsome in Thai if pronounced with a low tone - ask a Thai to pronounce หล่อ ( handsome)  and compare it to the English English 'law' and then you have bore core sore/saw

Those examples are American English - try saying  using English English  bore caw saw   ie claw law -especially the last one which means handsome in Thai if pronounced with a low tone - ask a Thai to pronounce หล่อ ( handsome)  and compare it to the English English 'law' and then you have bore core sore/saw

Thanks for your interest in the question. I now realize how many ways there are to pronounce English. I think we must supply audio. You are right that the audio I gave is American English. I think you agree that in those recordings, the vowels of "bar car scar" are closer to the Thai บอ ขอ สอ than those of "bore core sore"?

In the following recordings I think the American pronounciation of "law" is closer to the หล่อ than the British is. (I listened to หล่อ in Paiboon dict.)

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/pronunciation/english/law

Using the same YouTube channel, I find Paiboon pronounciation of หล่อ similar to the start of "large"

Yes that american version of law is closer because it stresses the r sound  whilst the Cambridge version doesn't  but to my ears the American recordings of bar car and scar whilst having the r,  have the vowels  leaning too much towards an a sound rather than  an  o as in 'or'

But up to you , simply write the Thai and then ask a Thai to pronounce it-  try the words พ่อ  (dad) and พอ ( enough)- pore