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Posted

When I go to the US every other year .over the 6weeks I spend much more on a daily basis than I spend here .So does every Tourist,so the bickering is rather pointless.Go away here and it's the same


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Posted
12 minutes ago, smokie36 said:

I find it really funny that you continue your pointless drivel argument and ignored my factual comment folks.

 

It really shows me what you are all about...especially those of you active on your pension thread.

 

Some of you would argue what face is on a ten baht coin...its hilarious when there are real issues out there.

I'm not active on the Pensions thread but I can't see who your remark is aimed at. So you're going to have to spell that one out for me, I've posted a very simple statement using TAT's own figures, are you suggesting something is missing?

Posted
7 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I'm not active on the Pensions thread but I can't see who your remark is aimed at. So you're going to have to spell that one out for me, I've posted a very simple statement using TAT's own figures, are you suggesting something is missing?

 

Not at anyone in particular....I just feel your discussion is going nowhere really.

Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, smokie36 said:

 

Not at anyone in particular....I just feel your discussion is going nowhere really.

I agree it is not going anywhere. 

 

But I think there's still an interesting point to be made regarding which entity spends more in Thailand, the average tourist or the resident expat. TAT's number say that on average, the  resident expat does and I can't fault that, others seem unable to get their heads around the concept of averages or want to make up their own numbers to replace TAT's. I think the driver for some posters not wanting to understand or accept the point is more about a desire to put down the resident expat and to keep portraying him as a alcoholic penniless sex tourist who lives here in a single room and lives hand to mouth, exactly why people need to do that mystifies me completely.

 

And the thread is after all entitled, can TVF make things batter. Well I think it can in several ways, not the least of them being to improve the understanding of members about the non-Thai community and the associated economics, perhaps by doing that posters would cease their endless attacks on everything Thai whenever a new Immigration initiative is announced.

Edited by chiang mai
Posted

We can only offer our own experience so I will share mine.

 

I am in the pub and have 2 snowfish fillets I will cook for dinner tonight...total cost of our supper will be around 1k Baht.

 

Other evenings it might be 200 Baht if we want some street food.

 

My monthly spend is around 100k Baht or a little less.

Posted

And ours is between 55 and 65k a month, without watching or trying it is always at that level. But we own our own home so there's no rent to pay and yes, I am a pensioner (but I'm nor reliant on my pensions).

Posted
2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I think the driver for some posters not wanting to understand or accept the point is more about a desire to put down the resident expat and to keep portraying him as a alcoholic penniless sex tourist who lives here in a single room and lives hand to mouth, exactly why people need to do that mystifies me completely.

Firstly I want to be clear, I do not think that all resident expats are penniless sex tourists, in fact the cross section of expats is large from well off BKK expats to poor sexpat drunks. Sadly the press is always about  the latter. I have posted numerous times about living a great life here only to be told I am lying. My debate wasn't that but how you could possibly believe the expats living here contribute more to Thailand then the tourist segment.

 

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

But I think there's still an interesting point to be made regarding which entity spends more in Thailand, the average tourist or the resident expat

With that said above for fun while watching a movie I checked some stats, in 2016 Thailand had 32,588,303 visitors up 8.91% from 2015, How many expats do you reckon live in Thailand....500,000? ( I thinks that is a stretch but I really do not know).

 

Do the math taking your TAT avg per tourist for 5 days  spending 5400 bht a day x 32,588,303 and use the 500,000 expat number and for fun just use 75k bht average per month per resident expat which amounts to 2,500 bht a day for a 30 day month. I didn't calculate it because I didn't need to. Clearly the tourist segment brings significantly more then the resident expat which is likely why resident expats are not "Special" here and never will be. Yes while you may spend 2, 3 and 4x times more then an avg Thai might in a month, you are (We are) statistically insignificant in the big picture.

 

Posted
1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

a desire to put down the resident expat and to keep portraying him as a alcoholic penniless sex tourist who lives here in a single room and lives hand to mouth, exactly why people need to do that mystifies me completely.

It's an attempt to balance the picture, CM.

This thread is about how Thaivisa might be used to act as a lobbying tool to eke out concessions that might make things "easier" for foreigners.

 

Those resident economic migrants who think they deserve a "say" or some kind of enhanced status because they bring modest sums of money to the Thai economy need to be shaken out of their delusions & reminded of their place in the pecking order.

 

As geriatrickid said earlier, you don't hear the dudes on the big expat packages with MNCs bitching about the irritants of dual pricing or 90 day reports

Those guys aren't whining about deadbeat Thai birds with 3 kids ripping them off, the price of a continental breakfast, problems with law enforcement, the fact they can't buy a rai of swampland to build a McMansion on.

 

I can't for the life of me understand why it's always those with the most unremarkable levels of wealth that are always the most vocal about what that should entitle them to.

Does it stem from a need to be recognised or acknowledged after a lifetime of feeling like a distinctly average "also-ran"?

Is it the ignominy of finally making it into the top 5% (if only by moving to a country with a much poorer population) and deriving no privilege for their "achievement"?

Who knows but it's the height of vanity and the nadir of snobbery.

 

Just accept it, we have little control over our status here; we all knew that before we pitched our tents.

All we can do is satisfy the criteria ........ or don't.

 

Posted
5 hours ago, JAFO said:

Firstly I want to be clear, I do not think that all resident expats are penniless sex tourists, in fact the cross section of expats is large from well off BKK expats to poor sexpat drunks. Sadly the press is always about  the latter. I have posted numerous times about living a great life here only to be told I am lying. My debate wasn't that but how you could possibly believe the expats living here contribute more to Thailand then the tourist segment.

 

With that said above for fun while watching a movie I checked some stats, in 2016 Thailand had 32,588,303 visitors up 8.91% from 2015, How many expats do you reckon live in Thailand....500,000? ( I thinks that is a stretch but I really do not know).

 

Do the math taking your TAT avg per tourist for 5 days  spending 5400 bht a day x 32,588,303 and use the 500,000 expat number and for fun just use 75k bht average per month per resident expat which amounts to 2,500 bht a day for a 30 day month. I didn't calculate it because I didn't need to. Clearly the tourist segment brings significantly more then the resident expat which is likely why resident expats are not "Special" here and never will be. Yes while you may spend 2, 3 and 4x times more then an avg Thai might in a month, you are (We are) statistically insignificant in the big picture.

 

My comparison is the economic value of ONE tourist versus ONE resident expat, not the total value of each sector!!!

Posted
5 hours ago, YeahSiam said:

It's an attempt to balance the picture, CM.

This thread is about how Thaivisa might be used to act as a lobbying tool to eke out concessions that might make things "easier" for foreigners.

 

Those resident economic migrants who think they deserve a "say" or some kind of enhanced status because they bring modest sums of money to the Thai economy need to be shaken out of their delusions & reminded of their place in the pecking order.

 

As geriatrickid said earlier, you don't hear the dudes on the big expat packages with MNCs bitching about the irritants of dual pricing or 90 day reports

Those guys aren't whining about deadbeat Thai birds with 3 kids ripping them off, the price of a continental breakfast, problems with law enforcement, the fact they can't buy a rai of swampland to build a McMansion on.

 

I can't for the life of me understand why it's always those with the most unremarkable levels of wealth that are always the most vocal about what that should entitle them to.

Does it stem from a need to be recognised or acknowledged after a lifetime of feeling like a distinctly average "also-ran"?

Is it the ignominy of finally making it into the top 5% (if only by moving to a country with a much poorer population) and deriving no privilege for their "achievement"?

Who knows but it's the height of vanity and the nadir of snobbery.

 

Just accept it, we have little control over our status here; we all knew that before we pitched our tents.

All we can do is satisfy the criteria ........ or don't.

 

A social networking site such as TVF rarely ever hears from happy people when it comes to visa's and Immigration, posters use sites TVF as a mechanism for venting their frustration on visa issues and matters related. So of course the wealthy expat who is employed on a substantial package is unlikely to ever be heard in these pages whereas the the less wealthy retiree with more time n his hands will be heard frequently, that's only common sense of course.

 

But I think it's extremely arrogant that you think it's your job to put some of those retirees in their place when they choose to complain about their circumstances, who appointed you the behavioural sheriff of these things! I have no idea and can't begin to guess at how many expat retirees might be considered economic migrants but I suspect the numbers are much smaller than you imply, I doubt many people set out to become that. I do believe however that many expat retirees come here because they want to retire in a warmer climate, improve their chances of finding a partner and are fed up with life back home and want a changed life in retirement - many if not most of those people will have begun their journey with a reasonable amount of money, albeit without any real plan. I find it hard to be critical of those people when after say fifteen years of living here their wealth has diminished as a result of many factors, some outside of their control and at age 70 they are now caught between a rock and a hard place and complain on TVF. Such people are I think a very small minority but just like an echo in an empty room they seem louder and far greater than they actually are.

 

Finally, your post  links complaining and wealth, those who have money don't complain but those who are poorer do, but then you say you can't understand why it is the poorer people who always complain. I think there's another angle on this which is that stupid and unnecessarily bureaucratic measures anywhere need complaining about, regardless of how much money a person has in the bank and the lack of wealth doesn't make a poor persons argument any less valid. Case in point is being required to report and confirm my address 4, x 90 days, 1 x visa extension, 1 x every time I return home following a visit away (TM30). I would probably never start a thread to complain about that but as here, I will raise it as being very unnecessary and I have over 15 million in my bank accounts here, hence I think your link between wealth and complaints needs to be rethought.

Posted

@ CM, I visit this site primarily for the entertainment value and for the occasional interesting thread where posters communicate like adults.  

 

To Yeahsiams point, the reality is like anywhere the poor behaving tourists and resident expats ruin it for all.  Just look at what makes news. It's never about the ones living a normal life like me and likely you and a host of others. Until a balanced perception takes place the belief will be that foreigners come here as sexpats or are running/hiding from the law etc.  

 

There are MANY ways Thai immigration could handle the visa process but they are not going to spend the time because as I stated we are statistically insignificant especially if a retiree.  If a working expat you pay taxes and other things and in many cases add jobs.  

 

I always felt that if you sustained 800k in the bank. Had a permanent resident address and been 5 years or longer you should only have to check in once a year.  Reward the people that display intent to be part of Thailand.and make it harder for the people here that behave poorly.  Instead we are all under a blanket program.  But that becomes to hard to manage and it's likely they don't care if you stay or go. I work here. I pay taxes. I will retire here eventually. I know the deal.  

Posted
2 minutes ago, JAFO said:

@ CM, I visit this site primarily for the entertainment value and for the occasional interesting thread where posters communicate like adults.  

 

To Yeahsiams point, the reality is like anywhere the poor behaving tourists and resident expats ruin it for all.  Just look at what makes news. It's never about the ones living a normal life like me and likely you and a host of others. Until a balanced perception takes place the belief will be that foreigners come here as sexpats or are running/hiding from the law etc.  

 

There are MANY ways Thai immigration could handle the visa process but they are not going to spend the time because as I stated we are statistically insignificant especially if a retiree.  If a working expat you pay taxes and other things and in many cases add jobs.  

 

I always felt that if you sustained 800k in the bank. Had a permanent resident address and been 5 years or longer you should only have to check in once a year.  Reward the people that display intent to be part of Thailand.and make it harder for the people here that behave poorly.  Instead we are all under a blanket program.  But that becomes to hard to manage and it's likely they don't care if you stay or go. I work here. I pay taxes. I will retire here eventually. I know the deal.  

Totally agree that expats are statistically insignificant in the bigger picture of Thailand. But clearly the combination of tourists and expats not necessarily so in economic terms, as a percentage of GDP the combined entity is major contributor. My earlier point was not about that aspect it was solely about the comparison of economic contribution value on a one to one basis.

 

Your point about the balanced perception though is absolutely spot on, my sense currently is that everyone is looking at everyone else and seeing things that don't exist or perhaps exist only in small amounts. Thinking back to different places I have lived in Thailand and expats I have known, I can't think of any that lived hand to mouth. There was one gentlemen in Phuket who is well known on TVF who turned out to be very short of money and has now passed on but you would never have guessed his lack of wealth had you known him. Perhaps things are different in different parts of the country, I suspect Pattaya may present a different expat picture than I see where I live today. But as things stand the concept of a hand to mouth  retiree who lives in a single cheap room and struggles to get by, is very much in the minority and vastly overdone on TVF, presumably because it's become fashionable to bash and try to denigrate older people in the West.

Posted

I agree. While I only know a handful of expats none are remotely close to slipping into poverty.  They are just regular guys who decided(like me) that Thailand is where they want to work or retire. With that said, I have seen quite a few in traveling that do look(appearance wise) to be limping by. How many expats are in that segment I have no idea. To your point, clearly Pattaya has a bad perception and does draw the highest percentage of the dregs that wash up here and being it appears TVF is closely linked to that area the news seems to show a terrible side of expats and of course we know perception becomes reality over time. Where I live is totally different. I do not see but a few foreigners now and again and there are no bars and beaches where expats go sit and drink and continue the perception.  Where I work and live is different. I see quite a few and it's a mixed bag. The other day I saw a guy that was staggering drunk in the mall.  He looked disoriented and lost and Thais were staring.

 

Reality is we will not change the perception.  We need to live our lives as we want and try to show others that it's not all what you read on TV.

 

Posted
14 minutes ago, JAFO said:

I agree. While I only know a handful of expats none are remotely close to slipping into poverty.  They are just regular guys who decided(like me) that Thailand is where they want to work or retire. With that said, I have seen quite a few in traveling that do look(appearance wise) to be limping by. How many expats are in that segment I have no idea. To your point, clearly Pattaya has a bad perception and does draw the highest percentage of the dregs that wash up here and being it appears TVF is closely linked to that area the news seems to show a terrible side of expats and of course we know perception becomes reality over time. Where I live is totally different. I do not see but a few foreigners now and again and there are no bars and beaches where expats go sit and drink and continue the perception.  Where I work and live is different. I see quite a few and it's a mixed bag. The other day I saw a guy that was staggering drunk in the mall.  He looked disoriented and lost and Thais were staring.

 

Reality is we will not change the perception.  We need to live our lives as we want and try to show others that it's not all what you read on TV.

 

A good post.

 

It's a shame that we can't see the age of posters who make these "observations" about drunken impoverished sexpat retirees in Thailand, it's also a shame that keyboards aren't fitted with GPS with posts displaying a posters location. Were that possible I suspect that most of the comments would be seen to be from a younger group, many of them not resident in Thailand. 

 

In looking to the future I strongly believe the demographics of the expat population will change and probably quite quickly as home countries penalise non-residents through: increased taxation through loss of the personal allowance/standard deductions; loss of free or subsidised health care in the home country; greater taxation and financial threshold requirements for residency in Thailand; further strengthening of THB plus a weakening of Western currencies; and last but not least, a strengthening of ties with regional countries, especially China versus a weakening of ties with the West, particularly with the US.

 

 

Posted

Well CM, I know that a vast majority of posters on TV do not live in Thailand and I suspect that a number of the posters post to wind people up. Its the nature of the beast. I surely would never use anything posted on TV as a gauge of the reality here. As most know bad news and bad behavior sells as people love to see and comment on it. Look at the constant one liners from posters in news section on the site. They go on and on and people "Like" their posts and they are cynical. But again, nature of the beast with many bored people.

 

I never take any of this with any seriousness. I look at it like watching a D rated type movie, Its poor entertainment and sadly predictable but intriguing to read some of it. 

 

 

Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, chiang mai said:

A social networking site such as TVF rarely ever hears from happy people when it comes to visa's and Immigration, posters use sites TVF as a mechanism for venting their frustration on visa issues and matters related. So of course the wealthy expat who is employed on a substantial package is unlikely to ever be heard in these pages whereas the the less wealthy retiree with more time n his hands will be heard frequently, that's only common sense of course.

 

But I think it's extremely arrogant that you think it's your job to put some of those retirees in their place when they choose to complain about their circumstances, who appointed you the behavioural sheriff of these things! I have no idea and can't begin to guess at how many expat retirees might be considered economic migrants but I suspect the numbers are much smaller than you imply, I doubt many people set out to become that. I do believe however that many expat retirees come here because they want to retire in a warmer climate, improve their chances of finding a partner and are fed up with life back home and want a changed life in retirement - many if not most of those people will have begun their journey with a reasonable amount of money, albeit without any real plan. I find it hard to be critical of those people when after say fifteen years of living here their wealth has diminished as a result of many factors, some outside of their control and at age 70 they are now caught between a rock and a hard place and complain on TVF. Such people are I think a very small minority but just like an echo in an empty room they seem louder and far greater than they actually are.

 

Finally, your post  links complaining and wealth, those who have money don't complain but those who are poorer do, but then you say you can't understand why it is the poorer people who always complain. I think there's another angle on this which is that stupid and unnecessarily bureaucratic measures anywhere need complaining about, regardless of how much money a person has in the bank and the lack of wealth doesn't make a poor persons argument any less valid. Case in point is being required to report and confirm my address 4, x 90 days, 1 x visa extension, 1 x every time I return home following a visit away (TM30). I would probably never start a thread to complain about that but as here, I will raise it as being very unnecessary and I have over 15 million in my bank accounts here, hence I think your link between wealth and complaints needs to be rethought.

You've made this about retirees, when it's about economic migrants (or what you'd call "expats") as a whole.

It's definitely not just the retirees thinking they deserve a bigger pot to piss in; it's those on spousal and dependent visas/extensions of stay too.

 

I never insinuated it was my "job" to put these people in their place - I just said it was worth putting forward a more balanced view when some people got a bit ahead of themselves and held their wealth up as a justification for a greater say in how things are done here.

 I don't care how you dress it up, CM, most male economic migrants come here for cheap living costs and easy, attractive pussy at a price they can get behind.

This is one of the reasons behind the popular perception of the single male, holed up in a fan room in Pattaya shagging his way through hooker after hooker while living hand-to-mouth.

It's a stereotype but it's also a well-deserved one.

It's worth pointing out that male economic migrants living in the Caribbean, Southern Europe etc don't suffer from this stereotyping. Wonder why?

 

You say the 90 day reports thing is a pain and you're right - it is - but you (and I) KNEW about it all along; it wasn't introduced yesterday, mate; it's just that, after however many years,for many, it's become an inconvenience.

You think the authorities need to change it but that's because your perception of it has changed.

People who complain about not being able to buy land or work to support families are hardly in a minority, CM - they're everywhere on here and out in the real world but, again, these rules have been immutable - it's only individual circumstances that have changed.

 

A guy happy to comply with 90 day reports and restrictions on work etc when he first arrived suddenly finds those things an inconvenience after he knocks up a local bird and wants to leave land/property to his kid but doesn't want to buy in his wife's name.

Whose fault is that?

Is it the fault of those who make the rules or the guy who knocked up the bird?

Should the authorities change the law to accommodate those who make dumb life choices?

Edited by YeahSiam
Posted

I belive tv could make things better, Make this forum a real one by insisting on real names and whereabouts of people. Ie not an anonymous forum. That way at least relevent questions which would or could impact on people actualy living in thailand a % could easily be seen of posters who live here and those that dont giving a far truer pucture and surveys could be seen in a true light. I am not saying all can't have a voice at all. But seems to me people actualy living here full time deserves a bigger voice on there concerns and thoughts.

Posted
2 hours ago, YeahSiam said:

You've made this about retirees, when it's about economic migrants (or what you'd call "expats") as a whole.

It's definitely not just the retirees thinking they deserve a bigger pot to piss in; it's those on spousal and dependent visas/extensions of stay too.

 

I never insinuated it was my "job" to put these people in their place - I just said it was worth putting forward a more balanced view when some people got a bit ahead of themselves and held their wealth up as a justification for a greater say in how things are done here.

 I don't care how you dress it up, CM, most male economic migrants come here for cheap living costs and easy, attractive pussy at a price they can get behind.

This is one of the reasons behind the popular perception of the single male, holed up in a fan room in Pattaya shagging his way through hooker after hooker while living hand-to-mouth.

It's a stereotype but it's also a well-deserved one.

It's worth pointing out that male economic migrants living in the Caribbean, Southern Europe etc don't suffer from this stereotyping. Wonder why?

 

You say the 90 day reports thing is a pain and you're right - it is - but you (and I) KNEW about it all along; it wasn't introduced yesterday, mate; it's just that, after however many years,for many, it's become an inconvenience.

You think the authorities need to change it but that's because your perception of it has changed.

People who complain about not being able to buy land or work to support families are hardly in a minority, CM - they're everywhere on here and out in the real world but, again, these rules have been immutable - it's only individual circumstances that have changed.

 

A guy happy to comply with 90 day reports and restrictions on work etc when he first arrived suddenly finds those things an inconvenience after he knocks up a local bird and wants to leave land/property to his kid but doesn't want to buy in his wife's name.

Whose fault is that?

Is it the fault of those who make the rules or the guy who knocked up the bird?

Should the authorities change the law to accommodate those who make dumb life choices?

I made this a one to one comparison of the economic contribution of ONE resident expat versus ONE tourist (I may have said that previously) and some posters, you included, had difficult getting their heads around it and understanding it - the derogatory remarks and stereotyping of retired expats emanated from that, a view that I disagree is real or warranted.

 

"I don't care how you dress it up, CM, most male economic migrants come here for cheap living costs and easy, attractive pussy at a price they can get behind.

This is one of the reasons behind the popular perception of the single male, holed up in a fan room in Pattaya shagging his way through hooker after hooker while living hand-to-mouth".

 

In your opinion, it's far far away from being fact.

Posted
1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

In your opinion, it's far far away from being fact.

An opinion that you agree with;

 

Quote

many expat retirees come here because they want to retire in a warmer climate, improve their chances of finding a partner

you just tried to sanitize it, slap a suit on it and make it sound respectable.

Posted
56 minutes ago, YeahSiam said:

An opinion that you agree with;

 

you just tried to sanitize it, slap a suit on it and make it sound respectable.

No YS I do not believe that "looking for a partner" and " shagging his way through hooker after hooker" are the same thing and if you do it says much about you!  But I do think you and I are done here if you are unable to hold a civilised debate at a reasonable level of maturity!

Posted (edited)

All things considered I think it probably wise not to invite too much attention from the authorities to TVF.

 

In-depth scrutiny of some rather inflammatory posts here could lead to deportations for some and closure of the site.

 

IMHO.

Edited by grollies
Posted
9 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

No YS I do not believe that "looking for a partner" and " shagging his way through hooker after hooker" are the same thing and if you do it says much about you!  But I do think you and I are done here if you are unable to hold a civilised debate at a reasonable level of maturity!

As you wish but I will point out that there's no immaturity in my argument.

Posted (edited)

People can comprehend your ONE vs ONE comparison...what they cannot comprehend is its relevance. As the end result is tourist win out big time over old whiny expats when it comes to economic value. Your comparison is only relevant if their is equal number of tourists vs expats (which is extremely far from the case). It seems you have thought long and hard of a comparison that will fit into your argument about expats being valuable, but it just hasn't cut it. It is so far fetched to the actual discussion that no one has comprehended why it was mentioned, not the actual maths or concept of it. And continuously referring to TAT figures in the hope of some sort of credibility doesn't cut it either. As the figures you are producing still show that overall tourists are economically more valued than expats by the government. Why? Because the Thai govt look at the bigger picture, that is revenue over a period of time, not individual cases over a day. It would be like saying you have the choice of receiving one baht per day from one person for a year (365 baht)....or you can receive 5 baht for 7 days from 30 people (1050 baht). And when those 30 people leave, it all starts over with the next lot of 30 people. Look at the end numbers, not imaginary beginning numbers in hope to sound more valuable than we actually are lol.

 

What does 'improve their chances of finding a partner' mean? Your implication surely must be that there is an increase chance of finding a partner as they live in a poor country so they will be desirable for their money. Or are you somehow implying that Thai girls only go for foreign men, and that the native women back home also only went for foreign men. As if money isn't your implication, then their chances of finding a partner are exactly as they were back home. And if money is the implication, then I don't understand the difference between your post and other posters comment...seems you did just put a suit on it. I don't understand the difference between a girl being in a relationship with you for your money and being with a hooker other than a hooker is a shorter period of time...I don't think maturity comes into it, more language and definitions of relationships.

Edited by wildewillie89

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