Complicated life! Thai girlfriend twice denied UK visa, now married, next step?

[bobrussell]

A1 is the basic English for initial settlement. Not difficult for someone able to communicate enough to function in the UK.

B1 is more advanced and can be used for FLR but I agree better than B1 is required for ILR and Citizenship. This is still pretty straight forward and anyone living in the UK for a couple of years should be able to pass it with a little preparation.

LitUK is much tougher but I see little wrong with the principle that those settling permanently in the UK should speak the language and understand more about the country they are settling in.

 

I would expect to improve my Thai somewhat in two years. Rudimentary at present but gives everyone a heck of a shock when I enter the conversation they thought was incomprehensible!!

 

These language requirements were not just introduced for Thais settling. Whole communities have established where English is not spoken much of the time.

 

Edited February 13, 2017 by bobrussell

[rasg]

36 minutes ago, bobrussell said:

A1 is the basic English for initial settlement. Not difficult for someone able to communicate enough to function in the UK.

B1 is more advanced and can be used for FLR but I agree better than B1 is required for ILR and Citizenship. This is still pretty straight forward and anyone living in the UK for a couple of years should be able to pass it with a little preparation.

LitUK is much tougher but I see little wrong with the principle that those settling permanently in the UK should speak the language and understand more about the country they are settling in.

 

I would expect to improve my Thai somewhat in two years. Rudimentary at present but gives everyone a heck of a shock when I enter the conversation they thought was incomprehensible!!

 

These language requirements were not just introduced for Thais settling. Whole communities have established where English is not spoken much of the time.

 

I 100% agree with you but most Brits couldn't pass the LITUK test without a lot of revision and the kids in school today would probably be starting from scratch because of the poor state of history education now.

[brewsterbudgen]

From what I can see it is nothing more than a slightly more difficult A1. I watched a bit of one on the Trinity college channel on YouTube a few weeks ago. It's just a new way or squeezing every last drop of cash out of applicants in this case. Before the announcement late last year anybody currently on FLR was happy in the knowledge that they didn’t need to take another test until ILR. Then the Government moved the goalposts... Another £150. If I can get the wife genned up on the B1 it makes sense to go for it. A lot to learn though.

Correct. The B1 test just requires a slightly higher level of conversational English and interaction with the other candidate, including basic planning skills. The Listening part has inference questions which are much trickier than A1. But it is still a fairly easy test.

I don't believe it is possible to do A2 in Thailand as IELTS is the only UKVI authorised provider here.

Sent from my SM-A500F using Thaivisa Connect mobile app

[bobrussell]

Sister in law passed her LitUK a couple of years ago. it was a good learning exercise. She had post it notes spread across her house. Did a lot of practice questions.

Overall it was a bit nerve racking but actually was a good learning exercise.

I doubt anyone would get all the questions right without a bit of work, British or not!

A bit of work and pretty much everyone that makes an effort will pass. No rocket science.

This is a topic done to death in previous threads but this sort of testing is pretty much universal now for those seeking permanent residence in a western (and otherwise) country.

 

[7by7]

cliveshep, your rants are not really very helpful to the OP; especially as they are mostly inaccurate!

 

For example

19 hours ago, cliveshep said:

We have been here about 18 months, arriving October 2015. Up until then you had to apply every two years for a visa extension for your wife, FLR - further leave to remain,

The rules changed in July 2012, not 2015!

 

Prior to that a spouse or partner visa was valid for 27 months, and after living in the UK for 24 months one applied for ILR. The only reason for making an FLR application instead was because the conditions for ILR, usually the language one, had yet to be met.

 

18 hours ago, cliveshep said:

What we found was it changed twice a year so learn all the answers to current questions and find they change the books and therefore the questions. All this crap was brought about by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary

The LitUK test was brought in by the Labour government in 2003. firstly for citizenship, then for ILR. The question bank didn't, and still doesn't, change twice a year. But, of course, each time someone takes a test they will find they are asked different questions, or the same question in a different way. As already said; the way to p[ass any exam isn't to learn the answers to all possible questions, it is to learn the subject!

 

Although the speaking and listening requirement for spouses and partners was introduced by the coalition Home Secretary, Theresa May, in June 2010, just one month after Labour lost the election, they were an extension of the language requirements previously introduced by Labour for work visas; an extension already planned by the previous Labour government. This would have happened regardless of who had won the May 2010 election.

 

18 hours ago, cliveshep said:

Ways to achieve this were draconian - up the fees for a start, a fiancée visa costs the same as a 2 year FLR as I found out, up the spouse visa fees

Whilst I agree that settlement visa fees are draconian, and set way above the actual cost of processing the application, it was Labour under Blair who increased fee levels way above cost and established the principle of annual, above inflation increases.

 

A fiance visa has always cost the same as a spouse visa, not FLR. FLR used to be free; until Labour introduced huge fees for in UK applications.

 

I cannot understand what your wife's experiences at one UK hospital and then at Frimley Park Hospital have to do with a UK visa or LTR application. Especially as applicants in Thailand, and other countries where TB is prevalent, for any visa longer than 6 months have, for some tome now, to obtain a TB certificate prior to applying for their visa. This, I believe, is certainly more convenient than the experience my wife and daughter had when they first arrived in the UK in 2001 and spent nearly three hours waiting to see the medical officer at Terminal 3; only for her to look at the vaccination scars on their arms and send us on our way!

 

[7by7]

44 minutes ago, bobrussell said:

This is a topic done to death in previous threads but this sort of testing is pretty much universal now for those seeking permanent residence in a western (and otherwise) country.

 As I've said before; in a biography of Humphrey Bogart I read about how he helped Ingrid Bergman study for the USA equivalent test between takes on the set of Casablanca; and that was in 1942!

 

From what I've read, the Thai language requirements for permanent residency, let alone citizenship, have also been in place a lot longer than the UK ones, and are a lot harder.

 

It seems to me that some people complain about immigrants not integrating, but don't like it when their immigrant spouse has to meet the conditions introduced to help in that integration.

[cliveshep]

7by7 - Kindly do not refer to my post as "a rant". It is rude and uncalled for. I will repeat or clarify - a fiancée visa cost from memory the better part of £800 and was valid for only 6 months in 2012. My now wife's was granted in early August of that year (she having earlier been refused a tourist visa in the February for the same reasons as the OP). During that 6 months period after the TB shenanigans we had to marry and then apply for FLR which was another £800 or so and which lasted for a two year period. In January 2014 we had to renew that FLR - another load of hoops to jump through and we got another 2 year extension. Had we married here and registered the marriage it would have been a lot cheaper but I was back and forth because of business commitments and could ill afford the time here.

 

We were warned on Thai Visa that the Life in the UK test was created for failure, only very smart or lucky people could pass it, and also warned that the books were changing, indeed one reason we elected not to go for it was Thai Visa and the fact that we could not purchase current books for some time as HMSO I believe it was had sold them all or not ordered enough or some such excuse I cannot recall. National papers also reprinted some of the obscure questions that UK professionals had failed practice tests on. Indeed during the "reign" of Theresa May as Home Secretary she did do as I said and made life for would-be fiancées or other family members as difficult as she could because that was the only way to try and get the numbers down. So how is that a rant? The whole immigrant thing is what has led to the Brexit referendum or maybe that is a rant too?

 

You can try some of the practice questions here, you need 75%, go try if you are English you must know all the answers mustn't you? https://www.theuktest.com/life-in-the-uk-test/1

 

You gave what looks like some good advice to the OP, but you are not alone in having perceptions and experiences that might be held to be relevant. The Spouse or fiancée visa route is neither cheap nor easy and is a bit of a slog for both wife and husband and just getting to the UK does not mean troubles are over either. Right now a grandmother who has an English husband, has children and grand children born in the UK and has lived in the UK on and off for 30 years, owns a house etc, is in a detention centre in Scotland facing deportation. Go figure!

Edited February 14, 2017 by cliveshep

[rasg]

I did five of the tests and got 23/24 for four of them and 19/25 for the last. Not very good at the Scottish questions and quite rubbish at history.

 

The reason a lot of what you said was because it was a while back, quite a bit of it was wildly inaccurate and almost all of it was irrelevant to the OP. He is applying in 2017. 

 

My wife will be doing the test in about five years time and she is starting early. I think you'll find they change the book and the questions each year.

 

 

 

 

[7by7]

I called you posts 'rants' because they were just that, a tirade of how the system had been unfair to you. Containing much which is false in an attempt to lay the blame for your wife's failure to pass the LitUK test and so achieve ILR elsewhere, containing much which is totally incorrect and with no actual advice for anyone.

 

1 hour ago, cliveshep said:

Indeed during the "reign" of Theresa May as Home Secretary she did do as I said

Apart from the major changes to the family immigration rules introduced in July 2012, which apart from the draconian and unfair financial requirement I agree with, all the other changes you complain about, the LitUK test, the introduction of fees for in UK LTR applications which were previously included in the initial visa fee without reducing that initial visa fee and the principle of above inflation increases, were introduced by Labour when they were in government; at a time when May was in the Shadow cabinet, but with the Transport portfolio! Even though the speaking and listening requirements were introduced 1 month after May became Home Secretary in the new coalition government, she was simply introducing a policy already decided upon and set in motion by the previous labour government. 

 

So tell us; how can she be responsible for the changes brought in when she and her party were in opposition?

 

The LitUK test is not 'designed for failure.' If it was, how do you explain the high pass rates; see this table and page 12 of this document.

 

Of course, like any exam, if a candidate hasn't studies the material, and I mean studied, not just tried to memorise all the possible questions and their answers, then they are going to fail. It is true that most British people would fail the test if they did not first study for it; but that is, in my view, an indictment of UK education rather than the test itself.

 

1 hour ago, cliveshep said:

You can try some of the practice questions here, you need 75%, go try if you are English you must know all the answers mustn't you? https://www.theuktest.com/life-in-the-uk-test/1

That test has been linked to before. It is not official, it has no relation to the official test. I got 79% and passed, though.

 

You can take an official practice test here. I got 92% in that one!

 

 

 

 

 

[bobrussell]

88%! Need more study.

 

It amazes me how many people gripe about the 'unfairness' of the test but so many manage to pass it! It does not require particular intelligence just a bit of work and support.

[rasg]

I did the official test too and got 92%. More by luck than judgement. I guessed right on two of them. I will have to do a lot of brushing up when my wife is practising though...

[MarkGB]

On 2/13/2017 at 5:19 PM, 7by7 said:

 

As theoldgit has already said, there is no requirement for a settlement applicant to have visited the UK first; some do, many, like my wife, don't.

 

Briefly, for a settlement visa your wife needs to provide:-

 

A signed hard copy of the online application form.

 

Her current passport, with a blank page, and any previous passports.

 

Evidence that she has at least A1 of the CEFR in English speaking and listening, obtained from a UKVI approved provider; the ones in Thailand are on page 13.

 

A TB certificate obtained from the IoM in Bangkok.

 

Your marriage certificate, with a certified English translation. Any reputable translator should now the format required.

 

Evidence that your relationship is genuine and subsisting; as you say, the 'usual proof of relationship.'

 

Evidence of her accommodation once in the UK. As she will be living with you, obviously, then a simple letter from you describing your property, how many rooms and who else, if anyone, lives there should suffice. If you own the property then evidence of this, such as a mortgage statement, can also help. If you rent, then a letter from your landlord confirming you are the tenant and that they have no objection to her living there can help.

 

A completed financial appendix form, together with the required evidence that the financial requirement is met; the evidence required depends upon how you are meeting it.

 

For more details, see the guide to supporting documents and Immigration Rules Appendix FM-SE: family members specified evidence.

 

As part of the online application, she (or you) will need to pay the Immigration Health Surcharge. This is currently £200 p.a., rounded up to the next 6 months. As her initial visa will be valid for 33 months, this means she will have to pay for 3 years, i.e. £600.  If her application is refused, this money will be refunded.

 

See Apply to join family living permanently in the UK for more details and how to apply.

 

Although it's in need of updating, you may also find the pinned topic UK settlement visa basics helpful.

 

 

 

 

Just back from a wifi free trip to Hua Hin. Thanks 7by7, T.O.G. and everyone for your advice. Don't want to spam this forum by expressing individual thanks to you all, but the comprehensive responses are greatly appreciated.

[superal]

On 11/02/2017 at 11:29 AM, ronaldo0 said:

Welcome to my world !!

I applied first time and the only reason they turned my wife down was she only provided 3 months bank statements not the 6 they asked for. Despite the fact I was paying for everything and owned my uk house outright and had supporting bank statements to prove I could afford it.

That was a slight disappointment so left it for about 4 years before applying again as no great hurry to go to UK.

Second time filled everything out and she took it to the office and spoke with woman for around 15 minutes.

Then got the reply letter with the biggest pile of s**t I have ever read in it !!

They said they did not think we were married despite us being married for 8 years and providing letters from people who came from uk to our wedding and photos off us on holiday and at our house together.

They said she did not have the funds for a return flight !! She had over 1.2m in her bank for over a year !!

They said they thought she wouldn't come back. Despite her giving proof she owned a new car paid for and 2 properties valued at 25m bht in her name.

The last thing they said was there was no proof off my visa information. I had given them this as I printed it off and signed it and she had given them my passport also !!

I appealed and the appeal was sent to Vietnam to be decided !! Email then sent saying try again to me !!

Then last year my friend married a woman with no assets money nothing and used a visa company. 3 days after handing it in she was given a 6 month visa for the UK.

Then a friend of the guys wife who also had nothing , not even a job . Was asked to go to the Uk for a holiday by a guy she knew from working in a bar before. She was given the money by him to go pay to apply. Week later she got one too !!

Guess if you want it for certain pay a company to make sure the office stamps it !!

Maybe mine was the Monday morning pile where they just pick up one lot and say denied to all off them without looking !!

Hi Ronaldo ,   Just caught this post having been a bit busy this week .  Your post could have been written by me as I had exactly the same experience . Immaculate application with impeccable references , partner with own business and bank accounts , house and supporting her parents . Refusal------- Not convinced she will return to Thailand from the UK . My jaw dropped when I read the refusal letter . Maybe easier to go with the flow and pay an agency , oh I am not suggesting for one moment that using them would involve some corruption but they have a reasonable success rate I am told because of their professionalism . 

[7by7]

9 hours ago, superal said:

<snip>

Maybe easier to go with the flow and pay an agency , oh I am not suggesting for one moment that using them would involve some corruption but they have a reasonable success rate I am told because of their professionalism . 

There are many visa agents in Thailand whose professionalism is beyond doubt; but there are as many, if not more, who are far from professional.

 

Unlike the UK and many other countries, visa agents in Thailand are unregulated. Anyone can set up as one and even claim membership of official sounding organisations which don't actually exists outside their imaginations! Unfortunately, Thailand's draconian defamation laws, and hence the forum rules, prevent me from naming names.

 

If anyone is considering using the services of an agent, I suggest that they read the pinned topic Visa Agents. If the agent claims membership of an organisation, check that the organisation actually exists and if, like the OISC, it does, that the agent is a member as claimed.

 

It is, of course, impossible to accurately comment on individual refusals without knowing all the details, including exactly what the refusal notice said.

 

However, from what I have read on forums such as this over the last15 years or so, from what I have been told directly by friends and acquaintances and from my own experience, I believe that there are three reasons for a UK visa application being refused.

 

They are, in descending order with the most common first:

1. The applicant met all the requirements, but failed to show that they did.
2. The applicant did not meet all the requirements.
3. The applicant met all the requirements, but the ECO made an error or missed something in the application.

Using a reputable agent will help in 1 as they will help you prepare and make sure all the evidence is there. They can also help in 2 by advising the applicant not to bother applying.

 

No agent can prevent 3. If this happens it is a genuine mistake, there is no quota system in any way, shape or form. I am not going to make excuses for such mistakes; they shouldn't happen, but they do.

 

Since there is no right of appeal for visit visas, except on race discrimination (unlikely to succeed) or human rights grounds, there is little one can do except reapply, write to the Entry Clearance Manager asking for a reconsideration or ask for a judicial review. Visit visa refusals: appeal or judicial review? from Free Movement looks at the options in detail.

 

 

[bobrussell]

There is little doubt that visa processing can lead to bizarre outcomes at times. At times it seems ECO's are trying to say No! but others slide through the system unchallenged.

We do tend to hear from those applications that are refused and of those it is likely that we hear the more 'odd' cases.

My wife's best friend was refused a visit visa on the grounds that she might have to work here to fund the visit. Ignored the fact that husband is a Swiss Franc multi-millionaire!

On occasions they seem to be blinkered and see what they expect to see.

Mostly they do seem to get things right most of the time.

Edited February 17, 2017 by bobrussell

[7by7]

2 minutes ago, bobrussell said:

We do tend to hear from those applications that are refused and of those it is likely that we hear the more 'odd' cases.

 Indeed; very few of the 95% of visit visa applicants in Thailand who are successful post on a forum about their success.

[rasg]

54 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

There are many visa agents in Thailand whose professionalism is beyond doubt; but there are as many, if not more, who are far from professional.

 

Unlike the UK and many other countries, visa agents in Thailand are unregulated. Anyone can set up as one and even claim membership of official sounding organisations which don't actually exists outside their imaginations! Unfortunately, Thailand's draconian defamation laws, and hence the forum rules, prevent me from naming names.

The girlfriend of somebody on here in the last week used two visa agents in Thailand that did more harm than good resulting in two refusals over two months last year. Suggesting that money was put in the girlfriend's bank account and in both cases giving inaccurate information. As a result it makes it incredibly difficult to recover from the problems they created in subsequent visa applications.

 

Far better doing it yourself with help from people on here than using a company that is not qualified to give advice or lies on your behalf that could result in a ban from applying.

[bobrussell]

I suspect the Embassy have an idea or two as to which agents are dodgy and those that are reliable. There will not be any question of a ban unless there is clear evidence of an attempt by the applicant to make fraudulent claims.

It is the applicant that signs the application so the buck does ultimately stop with him or her.

There is nothing to stop an accompanying letter stating that advice was sought for previous applications and that turned out to be of poor quality.

Be prepared for further applications to be scrutinised even more thoroughly but a good application is still a good application!

The affordability element of the visit needs to be shown as should the applicants general finances. Regular payments from a spouse/partner are not going to be treated with suspicion but large and unexplained payments into accounts will be.

We bought a house not far from the newish airport. That was a massive payment to her account that needed an explanation!

Edited February 17, 2017 by bobrussell