Israeli soldier gets 18 months' jail for killing wounded Palestinian attacker

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been removed.  

[ilostmypassword]

8 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I don't worry at all, the deluge of predictable nonsense posting is almost reassuring.

 

Azaria will not serve on any security related organization, not with his record and not with his obvious lack of intelligence. There's no particular reason to think that he'll repeat his actions once released. If anything, the trial showed that "there is a law", the issue is more to do with it's application. Similarly, Azaria did not exactly "get away with it". And no, he's not a national hero. 

And yet he's hardly a national pariah, either:

Poll: 67% of Israelis support pardon for convicted IDF soldier

Netanyahu also backs pardon for Elor Azaria in manslaughter case; sentencing set for January 15; father of slain Palestinian stabber ‘feels good’ about verdict  

http://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-january-4-2017

 

And if that really was a poll of all Israelis, given that Arabs constitute about 20 percent of the population, you're looking at almost 90 percent Jewish Israeli support for a pardon. I think he'll do fine once he gets out of prison.

Edited March 5, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[Morch]

 

@ilostmypassword

 

I never said he was a national pariah (though he ought to be). In the same way, he's no national hero - getting them 15 minutes, more like it. My original point was that the conviction will do him no favors once he's out of prison and out of the limelight. This was in reply to a previous comment by yourself that it would be a "plus in his resume". The difference being that you assume ongoing unconditional support, whereas I doubt the poll result will translate in that manner. 

 

It's not that he'll be an outcast after his release, just that it his record will not play favorably as you (and others) seem to imagine. There is nothing to support this if one looks at past cases. Not when it comes to grunts.

 

I have replied in length with regard to related poll results on at least one topic. The short version, while the support is there, I do think that the polls tend to over simply how things are (plus media presentation and politicians meddling do not help much). And that's without getting into some of the methodology involved (think you even commented on such previously). Either way, public attention span being what it is, once this stops being headline material, doubt the sustainability of such support, never mind active assistance.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Morch

[Galactus]

22 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I don't worry at all, the deluge of predictable nonsense posting is almost reassuring.

 

Azaria will not serve on any security related organization, not with his record and not with his obvious lack of intelligence. There's no particular reason to think that he'll repeat his actions once released. If anything, the trial showed that "there is a law", the issue is more to do with it's application. Similarly, Azaria did not exactly "get away with it". And no, he's not a national hero. 

he is like a hero in Israel morch. look below to the photos of events supporting him. events supporting a cold blooded murderer allegedly! t shirts with photo of him printed and balloons flying! and supporters are like ignorant sheep, no respect for laws or human rights.

so there is a good public support on this bloody murderer.

and even the prime minister of Israel, Bibi, backed his pardon allegedly.

so of course sure judges get affected from all these and maybe Bibi made a called those judges. you know, no laws there. it is not different from any other middle eastern country in Israel.

http://www.breitbart.com/jerusalem/2017/02/23/netanyahu-urges-pardon-convicted-hebron-shooter-elor-azaria/

 

and check how bibi and such court result impacted army code, moral and ethical values badly (if any of course in Israel):

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.763080

 

Edited March 6, 2017 by Galactus

[Morch]

 

@Galactus

 

That there is public support doesn't make him into a national hero. Not by a long-shot. A reminder - he was found guilty, regardless of the lightweight sentence meted. If one actually takes a closer look at polls (even taking into account reservations about accuracy and methodology), there isn't a full match between issues such as supporting pardon, support for his actions, and considering his treatment fair (to mention a few questions polled).

 

Netanyahu did not "call the judges", nor do I "know" that "there are no laws there". That is counter-factual, and usual drivel. Also, it is definitely different from almost any other ME country - where the trial wouldn't be held at all, and there would have been no open public debate about the issue. But seeing as you quote Breitbart, such a carefree attitude to truth is to be expected.

 

Obviously you haven't read or haven't grasped the second article linked, which would indicate the presence of all them things you deny.

[Jingthing]

Yet another case where Jew hating bleeds into Israel demonization.

[Jingthing]

A spot on article shedding light on the moral double standard Israel is subject to. All liberals should read it.

http://www.hunterstuartjournalist.com/2017/02/a-view-from-frontlines.html

"In almost any nation, when the police confront a terrorist in the act of killing people, they shoot him dead and human-rights groups don’t make a peep. This happens in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Bangladesh; it happens in Germany and England and France and Spain, and it sure as hell happens in the US (see San Bernardino and the Orlando nightclub massacre, the Boston Marathon bombings and others). Did Amnesty International condemn Barack Obama or Abdel Fattah al-Sisi or Angela Merkel or François Hollande when their police forces killed a terrorist? Nope. But they made a point of condemning Israel."

[Scott]

I note some inflammatory remarks are starting to bleed into this thread.   I strongly suggest that stop.

 

[simple1]

9 hours ago, Jingthing said:

A spot on article shedding light on the moral double standard Israel is subject to. All liberals should read it.

http://www.hunterstuartjournalist.com/2017/02/a-view-from-frontlines.html

 

"In almost any nation, when the police confront a terrorist in the act of killing people, they shoot him dead and human-rights groups don’t make a peep. This happens in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Bangladesh; it happens in Germany and England and France and Spain, and it sure as hell happens in the US (see San Bernardino and the Orlando nightclub massacre, the Boston Marathon bombings and others). Did Amnesty International condemn Barack Obama or Abdel Fattah al-Sisi or Angela Merkel or François Hollande when their police forces killed a terrorist? Nope. But they made a point of condemning Israel."
 

 

Sorry, but I do believe the article you quote from is nonsensical. In which Western countries was a terrorist attacker, lying on the ground,  incapacitated and not presenting as a threat, then shot dead at close range by a member of the security forces?

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been removed.  

 

Stay on topic, please.  

[Ace of Pop]

Sorry, but I do believe the article you quote from is nonsensical. In which Western countries was a terrorist attacker, lying on the ground,  incapacitated and not presenting as a threat, then shot dead at close range by a member of the security forces?

Good.[emoji562]


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[Galactus]

14 hours ago, Jingthing said:

A spot on article shedding light on the moral double standard Israel is subject to. All liberals should read it.

http://www.hunterstuartjournalist.com/2017/02/a-view-from-frontlines.html

 

"In almost any nation, when the police confront a terrorist in the act of killing people, they shoot him dead and human-rights groups don’t make a peep. This happens in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Bangladesh; it happens in Germany and England and France and Spain, and it sure as hell happens in the US (see San Bernardino and the Orlando nightclub massacre, the Boston Marathon bombings and others). Did Amnesty International condemn Barack Obama or Abdel Fattah al-Sisi or Angela Merkel or François Hollande when their police forces killed a terrorist? Nope. But they made a point of condemning Israel."
 

 

at those countries you mentioned of, if you kill someone laying on the ground by shooting his head, you get a quite high jail sentence and you will be banned from being  a police or army personal all your life.

so, that article you linked is a total nonsense sorry to say.

[Galactus]

16 hours ago, Morch said:

 

@Galactus

 

"they 'jewwashed' the murdered IDF soldier."

 

Come again...?

 

As for the rest of your post - simply repeating the same nonsense won't make it true. Do other ME countries conduct trials for soldiers committing such crimes? Is there much open, public debate? Do dissenting voices get their say? I don't think so. And as usual, the unnecessary over the top exaggerations - Israeli laws regarding human rights aren't "weak or non existent", especially compared with other countries in the region. But here's the thing, if Israel is just another run of the mill ME country - why the fuss? Why is Israel held to higher standard, then? Can't have it both ways.

 

bc Israel claims it is a democratic and developed country there in middle east and it is Israel getting billions of dollars of funds.

Simply, Israel is the powerful side there so responsibility goes to Israel of course.

these are why we all would like Israel to keep higher standards than other countries around.

[Morch]

7 hours ago, simple1 said:

Sorry, but I do believe the article you quote from is nonsensical. In which Western countries was a terrorist attacker, lying on the ground,  incapacitated and not presenting as a threat, then shot dead at close range by a member of the security forces?

 

Indeed. On another note, as opposed the quote, such things are routinely condemned when it comes to some of the non-Western countries mentioned. The main difference being, as posted earlier, that in such countries there are no steps taken domestically, and not even much possibility of public debate or expressing dissent on such matters.

 

I think it comes down to which yardstick is applied, and how rigidly it is adhered to. IMO, expecting Israel to fully conform with Western ideals, and without taking into account realistic constraints - is merely a set up for failure position. This usually goes hand in hand with views that refuse (when it suits) to treat issues such as democracy, freedom and conduct as matters of degree.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Galactus said:

at those countries you mentioned of, if you kill someone laying on the ground by shooting his head, you get a quite high jail sentence and you will be banned from being  a police or army personal all your life.

so, that article you linked is a total nonsense sorry to say.

 

What...in "Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Bangladesh", as well?

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Galactus said:

 

bc Israel claims it is a democratic and developed country there in middle east and it is Israel getting billions of dollars of funds.

Simply, Israel is the powerful side there so responsibility goes to Israel of course.

these are why we all would like Israel to keep higher standards than other countries around.

 

Same old. Democracies to not come in one size fits all. More a matter of degree and variance. Not either/or. Israel can be said to be a democracy. Surely not the the best manifestation, obviously. But perhaps better than some other countries proclaiming to be such. No idea what the "billions in funds" got to do with it.

 

The last line is one of them usual, and dishonest, non sequiturs.

[simple1]

3 hours ago, Ace of Pop said:

Good.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

From my reading on these matters I would think those responsible, at the strategic level, would not agree with you.

[Ace of Pop]

Not many do.Id just shoot a terrorist wounded or not,and sleep well that night.

[Shawn0000]

3 minutes ago, Ace of Pop said:

Not many do.Id just shoot a terrorist wounded or not,and sleep well that night.

 

Which is why we have a justice system as we cannot expect people to punish themselves for their crimes, apparently we cannot even expect people to always even recognize their wrongs.

[Shawn0000]

17 hours ago, Jingthing said:

A spot on article shedding light on the moral double standard Israel is subject to. All liberals should read it.

http://www.hunterstuartjournalist.com/2017/02/a-view-from-frontlines.html

 

"In almost any nation, when the police confront a terrorist in the act of killing people, they shoot him dead and human-rights groups don’t make a peep. This happens in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Bangladesh; it happens in Germany and England and France and Spain, and it sure as hell happens in the US (see San Bernardino and the Orlando nightclub massacre, the Boston Marathon bombings and others). Did Amnesty International condemn Barack Obama or Abdel Fattah al-Sisi or Angela Merkel or François Hollande when their police forces killed a terrorist? Nope. But they made a point of condemning Israel."
 

 

 

Obviously this is not about killing a terrorist in the act of killing, this is about killing a terrorist who is wounded and therefor not in the process of killing, even a simpleton would understand the difference.

[Shawn0000]

18 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Yet another case where Jew hating bleeds into Israel demonization.

 

Here we have a case of calling antisemite to try to silence critism of Israeli policy, how tired and pathetic that one has become.

[Morch]

6 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Here we have a case of calling antisemite to try to silence critism of Israeli policy, how tired and pathetic that one has become.

 

Not really, considering the post and the poster JT was referencing.

 

[Shawn0000]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Not really, considering the post and the poster JT was referencing.

 

 

How could you know what post they were referencing?

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

How could you know what post they were referencing?

 

Because I participated in the topic and the relevant exchange. Not rocket science, really.

[Shawn0000]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Because I participated in the topic and the relevant exchange. Not rocket science, really.

 

Ok, but they have posted so many things, one recent one before the one I responded to being the nonsense comparison to shooting terrorists dead who are in the process of killing to murdering an already incapacitated terrorist, I took it as a follow on from that, as if the criticism of Israeli policy that the journalist claimed is biased, is the result of antisemitism.

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Ok, but they have posted so many things, one recent one before the one I responded to being the nonsense comparison to shooting terrorists dead who are in the process of killing to murdering an already incapacitated terrorist, I took it as a follow on from that, as if the criticism of Israeli policy that the journalist claimed is biased, is the result of antisemitism.

 

Unless mistaken, JT's comment came before he linked that admittedly silly article, and, obviously, before posts criticizing it appeared.

 

[AGLV0121]

--- The fact that Elor Azaria gets over 62% people support by no means implies that over 62% agree with what he has done.

You must understand the Israeli society:its survival and achievements all depend on a strong army*. It is understandable, as:
- the shortest distance from a border to the sea is only 6 miles.
- the Golan heights overlook Israel. No more a problem now but has been
- Israel is surrounded by people who want its destruction: Iran arming Hizballah, Hamas, have accurate missiles - over 70,000 that can strike Israel when they decide to.

The support for EA reveals that people just say: "don't touch my army". The signs say: "today Elor, tomorrow, your son". Another says: "Touching the Army makes a weak nation".

 

--- What happened in this incident is not clear. Elor later declared "I thought he had an explosive belt". After many suicide bombers blowing themselves up in markets or in buses for decades - less now thanks to the wall  -, one can understand the emotion.

Everything goes very fast in those moments. If you think, the extra millisecond may  mean you and / or many other people are dead. And decision-making is a complex process.

IDF is the arm of the State of Israel. People vote for Likud in spite of the fact they accept a two-state solution.

*  a strong army... because Israel unilaterally disengaged from Gaza, we saw the result, Hamas started by killing all Fatah officers (but still, many abroad consider the group was elected "democratically"). Israel does not want a second front east of the green line.
- also because the Roman killed over 1.5 million Jews during 'the Great Rebellion against Rome', between 67-70 Common era.

- also because the Roman killed over 900,000 Jews during Bar-Kokhba revolt against Rome in 132-135 CE
- Plus the Inquisition, plus the multiple pogroms about everywhere in Europe, plus the Shoa, unfortunately not a hoax as Muslims want to believe. 
Plus the 800,000 Jews expelled from Arab countries in 1948 on a one-day notice, who lost every belonging they had, the work of their life.
Also, because Abbas talks about peace to the international community, then Abu Mazen says the contrary in Arabic. Same person
taqiyya (dissing), means a Muslim can agree today to later change their mind if they decide to.
Akso, since Muhammad's time, Muslims call Jews 'apes and monkeys'.
Also, because no geography book in territories mentions Israel. It's all 'Palestine'. for indoctrinment of their youth.
All this is "Googleable" of course. Due diligence.

However, kudos to Egypt and Jordan [both Sunni - no taqiyya here. Some Druze in Jordan] a peace treaty was signed and it has lasted for decades now.

[Morch]

52 minutes ago, AGLV0121 said:

--- The fact that Elor Azaria gets over 62% people support by no means implies that over 62% agree with what he has done.

You must understand the Israeli society:its survival and achievements all depend on a strong army*. It is understandable, as:
- the shortest distance from a border to the sea is only 6 miles.
- the Golan heights overlook Israel. No more a problem now but has been
- Israel is surrounded by people who want its destruction: Iran arming Hizballah, Hamas, have accurate missiles - over 70,000 that can strike Israel when they decide to.

The support for EA reveals that people just say: "don't touch my army". The signs say: "today Elor, tomorrow, your son". Another says: "Touching the Army makes a weak nation".

 

--- What happened in this incident is not clear. Elor later declared "I thought he had an explosive belt". After many suicide bombers blowing themselves up in markets or in buses for decades - less now thanks to the wall  -, one can understand the emotion.

Everything goes very fast in those moments. If you think, the extra millisecond may  mean you and / or many other people are dead. And decision-making is a complex process.

IDF is the arm of the State of Israel. People vote for Likud in spite of the fact they accept a two-state solution.

*  a strong army... because Israel unilaterally disengaged from Gaza, we saw the result, Hamas started by killing all Fatah officers (but still, many abroad consider the group was elected "democratically"). Israel does not want a second front east of the green line.
- also because the Roman killed over 1.5 million Jews during 'the Great Rebellion against Rome', between 67-70 Common era.

- also because the Roman killed over 900,000 Jews during Bar-Kokhba revolt against Rome in 132-135 CE
- Plus the Inquisition, plus the multiple pogroms about everywhere in Europe, plus the Shoa, unfortunately not a hoax as Muslims want to believe. 
Plus the 800,000 Jews expelled from Arab countries in 1948 on a one-day notice, who lost every belonging they had, the work of their life.
Also, because Abbas talks about peace to the international community, then Abu Mazen says the contrary in Arabic. Same person
taqiyya (dissing), means a Muslim can agree today to later change their mind if they decide to.
Akso, since Muhammad's time, Muslims call Jews 'apes and monkeys'.
Also, because no geography book in territories mentions Israel. It's all 'Palestine'. for indoctrinment of their youth.
All this is "Googleable" of course. Due diligence.

However, kudos to Egypt and Jordan [both Sunni - no taqiyya here. Some Druze in Jordan] a peace treaty was signed and it has lasted for decades now.

 

From the above:

 

"--- What happened in this incident is not clear. Elor later declared "I thought he had an explosive belt". After many suicide bombers blowing themselves up in markets or in buses for decades - less now thanks to the wall  -, one can understand the emotion.

Everything goes very fast in those moments. If you think, the extra millisecond may  mean you and / or many other people are dead. And decision-making is a complex process."

 

Azaria gave many conflicting explanations for his actions at different stages of investigation and trial. All were dismissed by the authorities and the court. Repeating it won't make it true. He did not shoot the Palestinian until after some time on the scene, and long after the Palestinian ceased to be a threat. The imminent threat defense was thrown out the window.

[Galactus]

2 hours ago, AGLV0121 said:

--- The fact that Elor Azaria gets over 62% people support by no means implies that over 62% agree with what he has done.

You must understand the Israeli society:its survival and achievements all depend on a strong army*. It is understandable, as:
- the shortest distance from a border to the sea is only 6 miles.
- the Golan heights overlook Israel. No more a problem now but has been
- Israel is surrounded by people who want its destruction: Iran arming Hizballah, Hamas, have accurate missiles - over 70,000 that can strike Israel when they decide to.

The support for EA reveals that people just say: "don't touch my army". The signs say: "today Elor, tomorrow, your son". Another says: "Touching the Army makes a weak nation".

 

--- What happened in this incident is not clear. Elor later declared "I thought he had an explosive belt". After many suicide bombers blowing themselves up in markets or in buses for decades - less now thanks to the wall  -, one can understand the emotion.

Everything goes very fast in those moments. If you think, the extra millisecond may  mean you and / or many other people are dead. And decision-making is a complex process.

IDF is the arm of the State of Israel. People vote for Likud in spite of the fact they accept a two-state solution.

*  a strong army... because Israel unilaterally disengaged from Gaza, we saw the result, Hamas started by killing all Fatah officers (but still, many abroad consider the group was elected "democratically"). Israel does not want a second front east of the green line.
- also because the Roman killed over 1.5 million Jews during 'the Great Rebellion against Rome', between 67-70 Common era.

- also because the Roman killed over 900,000 Jews during Bar-Kokhba revolt against Rome in 132-135 CE
- Plus the Inquisition, plus the multiple pogroms about everywhere in Europe, plus the Shoa, unfortunately not a hoax as Muslims want to believe. 
Plus the 800,000 Jews expelled from Arab countries in 1948 on a one-day notice, who lost every belonging they had, the work of their life.
Also, because Abbas talks about peace to the international community, then Abu Mazen says the contrary in Arabic. Same person
taqiyya (dissing), means a Muslim can agree today to later change their mind if they decide to.
Akso, since Muhammad's time, Muslims call Jews 'apes and monkeys'.
Also, because no geography book in territories mentions Israel. It's all 'Palestine'. for indoctrinment of their youth.
All this is "Googleable" of course. Due diligence.

However, kudos to Egypt and Jordan [both Sunni - no taqiyya here. Some Druze in Jordan] a peace treaty was signed and it has lasted for decades now.

 

whatever the facts are:

-  Israel invaded Palestinians land and still invading and stealing land from palestinians.

-  Israeli people still select old timer fascist politicians reflecting that they dont actually want peace or two state solution.

-  Israel never wants peace and froze this process until it gets all palestinian lands. Once they get all, sure next day, Israel will want peace maybe?

-  Many killed in the hands of jews as well.

-  There is clear breach of law and human rights in Israel.

 

 

Of course jews are oppressed throughout human history unfortunately which is sad. but time has changed. they dont need to be this paranoid.

Israelis need to select new and young politicians that can work with an open mind and one that is not working for cheap settlers to steal some more land. some fair people are needed.

 

 

[Galactus]

On 3/6/2017 at 7:13 PM, Jingthing said:

Yet another case where Jew hating bleeds into Israel demonization.

again, it is Israel demonizing itself. what we do is just stating the simple facts.

if simple facts are making Israel a demon, so just be it!

 

On 3/7/2017 at 1:12 PM, Morch said:

 

What...in "Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Bangladesh", as well?

these are bigot muslim countries with no respect for human rights or anything. so they are never a part of the equation. i was mentioning for the developed countries you mentioned.

but at least, they dont go steal someone other country's land and build some houses and kill the inhabitants. 

 

On 3/7/2017 at 1:20 PM, Morch said:

 

Same old. Democracies to not come in one size fits all. More a matter of degree and variance. Not either/or. Israel can be said to be a democracy. Surely not the the best manifestation, obviously. But perhaps better than some other countries proclaiming to be such. No idea what the "billions in funds" got to do with it.

 

The last line is one of them usual, and dishonest, non sequiturs.

sure Israel is not a bastion of democracy but one of the rare at least a bit democrat countries in that region.

as Palestinians will never be out of the skirt of their religion, i expect more from Israel than Palestinians to do something there!

hope i am not asking too much.