Wary of Trump unpredictability, China ramps up naval abilities

[ExpatOilWorker]

11 hours ago, spiderorchid said:

The US spent 16 trillion dollars in the cold war against the Soviets. What is that now in todays terms? It does not really matter as China owns much of US debt. (used to be Japan) If China firesales this debt, the US is in extreme trouble. The US military mostly understands that THEY are not the only superpower anymore. While the US has been fighting armed conflicts for the past 20 years, china has been spending big money in Africa and lesser amounts elsewhere to gain a cheap commodity supple line. Small nations now trust in China to deliver infrastructure and food for their raw materials. US still waves its battle fleet, China wins hearts and minds. And China is learning quickly about navy capabilities. It has up to six military aircraft near completion that will have air superiority over most US aircraft. Look it up. I dare you 

 

If China sell any more US T-bills than they have already done, it will soon bite their own arse and the Redback (Yuan) will be worthless. At a certain level, $2.6-2.8 trillion in foreign reserves, IMF will give Beijing a call that they no longer have 9% share of the international basket of currencies.

China will soon wake up and realize that it is not that easy to do business in Africa. Europe tried for 50 years and had mixed results.

On the other hand, the US of A and the greenback is still in high demand and doing great.

[boomerangutang]

                   A large reason why Americans, on average, are rich, is due to their incessant borrowing - personal, business, and borrowing on a national level.  Nationally, when countries like Saudis, Germany, Chinese, Holland, Japan pump money into the US (via T-bills, deposits in banks, buying real estate, businesses, etc) some of that money trickles down to well-positioned Americans.  

 

          In just one small county in northern California, where I resided and worked for a quarter century, there are large swaths of retirement communities, averaging several thousand homes each, where many houses have 2 to 4 car garages, mobile homes parked outside, swimming pools, tennis courts etc.  Those places reek of money.  One or two old people living in a house as big and expensive as a small fancy hotel in Switzerland - multiplied by tens of thousands - just in one rural county in one state.

 

                  Chinese (and others) have been a major factor propping up the US economy in recent decades. When the economic bubble bursts in China, it will have ripple effects in the US and elsewhere.    That's why it would have been better if the US dealt firmly with China's territory grabs in the SC Sea earlier, rather than putting it off.  The longer the US puts it off, the graver the fight which will ensue.

[ilostmypassword]

2 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

                   A large reason why Americans, on average, are rich, is due to their incessant borrowing - personal, business, and borrowing on a national level.  Nationally, when countries like Saudis, Germany, Chinese, Holland, Japan pump money into the US (via T-bills, deposits in banks, buying real estate, businesses, etc) some of that money trickles down to well-positioned Americans.  

 

          In just one small county in northern California, where I resided and worked for a quarter century, there are large swaths of retirement communities, averaging several thousand homes each, where many houses have 2 to 4 car garages, mobile homes parked outside, swimming pools, tennis courts etc.  Those places reek of money.  One or two old people living in a house as big and expensive as a small fancy hotel in Switzerland - multiplied by tens of thousands - just in one rural county in one state.

 

                  Chinese (and others) have been a major factor propping up the US economy in recent decades. When the economic bubble bursts in China, it will have ripple effects in the US and elsewhere.    That's why it would have been better if the US dealt firmly with China's territory grabs in the SC Sea earlier, rather than putting it off.  The longer the US puts it off, the graver the fight which will ensue.

Not so long ago, China held a lot more in Tbills than it does now. So why would confronting China make more sense earlier than it does now? 

[mike324]

Everyone calm down - the issue with China is the same very year. Its just with Trumps dangerous worlds, the USA may accidentally light the match if Trump is not careful.

 

If you want to build up and boost your military, why the need to brag about it? The US does not want other nations such as China and Russia to build up their military, and when they do the US calls is "alarming" yet they do it themselves. Again Trump is better of keeping his mouth shut.

[boomerangutang]

4 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Not so long ago, China held a lot more in Tbills than it does now. So why would confronting China make more sense earlier than it does now? 

                 Confronting China earlier would have nipped the territory-grabbing problem in the bud.  The US, under Obama, could have said to China:  "What you're doing is illegal.  You cannot commandeer other countries' territory.  If you don't pull out in 5 days, we will dispatch necessary force to get you to split."

 

                By interested parties (US, Phils, VN, Malaysia, Indonesia) not acting sooner, the Chinese have been steadily terra-forming the reefs and rock outcrops (particularly along Fil's coast), and getting ever-more entrenched.   I recall reading, years ago, that China was pouring concrete at the Spratly Islands to put in AA guns. That's when the US should have given its ultimatum.  Now it's far beyond AA guns.  China has reportedly put in missile launch sites, long runways, reinforced barracks for troops, ports for deep draft vessels, and state-of-the-art radar.  

 

               Actually, Indonesia is the only country in that region, thus far, with the balls to confront the Chinese.  Read up, and you'll see what I'm referring to (it relates to Chinese fishing boats straying into Indonesian waters - and being forced to leave).  In contrast, the Fil gov't is killing its own people on sidewalks like a turkey shoot.

[boomerangutang]

4 hours ago, mike324 said:

Everyone calm down - the issue with China is the same very year. Its just with Trumps dangerous worlds, the USA may accidentally light the match if Trump is not careful.

 

If you want to build up and boost your military, why the need to brag about it? The US does not want other nations such as China and Russia to build up their military, and when they do the US calls is "alarming" yet they do it themselves. Again Trump is better of keeping his mouth shut.

Mike 324 opines; " The US does not want other nations such as China and Russia to build up their military.....,"

 

           I respectfully don't agree.  Trump should know, as any 4 year old kid would know, that building up one side's military will compel the other side to beef up its forces.   Secondly, Trump has publicly stated that (select) other countries should build up their military might.  He even insinuated that Saudi, Japan and others should join the Nuke Club.

 

                  Trump is like bratty kid who is given loaded military weapons to play with:  automatic weapons, hand grenades, large boxes of fireworks.   He shouldn't be allowed near a loaded pistol, let alone the arsenal of the world's most powerful military.   Bad shit will hit the fan. The sooner Trump is booted out of office, the better.

[mike324]

2 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

Mike 324 opines; " The US does not want other nations such as China and Russia to build up their military.....,"

 

           I respectfully don't agree.  Trump should know, as any 4 year old kid would know, that building up one side's military will compel the other side to beef up its forces.   Secondly, Trump has publicly stated that (select) other countries should build up their military might.  He even insinuated that Saudi, Japan and others should join the Nuke Club.

 

                  Trump is like bratty kid who is given loaded military weapons to play with:  automatic weapons, hand grenades, large boxes of fireworks.   He shouldn't be allowed near a loaded pistol, let alone the arsenal of the world's most powerful military.   Bad shit will hit the fan. The sooner Trump is booted out of office, the better.

 

Perhaps I should add in "opposition" countries in regards to arms build up statement. The US is very happy to supply arms for countries which they preceived as allies.

 

In the past years, reports coming out of the pentagon and other US officials that deals with national security has always been on the line of not wanting opposition countries such as Russia and China to build up their military.... I'm pretty sure under Trump pentagon will most likely issue the same statements down the road.

[Dumbastheycome]

19 hours ago, spiderorchid said:

Yes, many trillions over the term of Trump. And who bought up the debt that China sold. It was not US, you were too busy producing phoney money. You need to look at the total debt that the US owes. This time, starting another phoney war will not get you out of debt. And soon the American taxpayer may start to question why so much money is spent creating wars that the US loses. Not to mention all the unnecessary military deaths and the cost to maintain vets (not that the US does much here) You should ask yourself what has 600 billion done for you. You keep losing incursions, you keep losing troops, you keep obsolete bases around the world where no one wants you. And you are losing or have lost the respect from the rest of the world. But keep chanting to yourself, freedom, freedom. You lost that a long time ago

I  agree. The greater  worry is that  a  last ditch effort  to  preserve the  farce of  domination/ protection will entail  nuke you lar "salvation" !

[stevenl]

                 Confronting China earlier would have nipped the territory-grabbing problem in the bud.  The US, under Obama, could have said to China:  "What you're doing is illegal.  You cannot commandeer other countries' territory.  If you don't pull out in 5 days, we will dispatch necessary force to get you to split."
 
                By interested parties (US, Phils, VN, Malaysia, Indonesia) not acting sooner, the Chinese have been steadily terra-forming the reefs and rock outcrops (particularly along Fil's coast), and getting ever-more entrenched.   I recall reading, years ago, that China was pouring concrete at the Spratly Islands to put in AA guns. That's when the US should have given its ultimatum.  Now it's far beyond AA guns.  China has reportedly put in missile launch sites, long runways, reinforced barracks for troops, ports for deep draft vessels, and state-of-the-art radar.  
 
               Actually, Indonesia is the only country in that region, thus far, with the balls to confront the Chinese.  Read up, and you'll see what I'm referring to (it relates to Chinese fishing boats straying into Indonesian waters - and being forced to leave).  In contrast, the Fil gov't is killing its own people on sidewalks like a turkey shoot.

China probably simply would have called the US bluff.

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[Dumbastheycome]

6 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

Mike 324 opines; " The US does not want other nations such as China and Russia to build up their military.....,"

 

           I respectfully don't agree.  Trump should know, as any 4 year old kid would know, that building up one side's military will compel the other side to beef up its forces.   Secondly, Trump has publicly stated that (select) other countries should build up their military might.  He even insinuated that Saudi, Japan and others should join the Nuke Club.

 

                  Trump is like bratty kid who is given loaded military weapons to play with:  automatic weapons, hand grenades, large boxes of fireworks.   He shouldn't be allowed near a loaded pistol, let alone the arsenal of the world's most powerful military.   Bad shit will hit the fan. The sooner Trump is booted out of office, the better.

Puppet  shows  invariably have  caricatures with brazen and aggressive expression. But with puppets it  may be worth considering  who has  a hand  up the fundamentals controlling  the  show! 

The   Chosen Ones of the  chosen ones who  now   own or  control  80%  of the   worlds  Banks have  only  singular  interest in  preserving the  sanctity  of  the currency they require trade in! The  USA is  simply  the  refuge they  have based themselves in.

Given that the USA presumes allegiances that  currently  are  being horribly  offended  I would  not  bet   1 historic shekel on the outcome  of  major  aggression!

[Dumbastheycome]

5 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

 

"While the US has been fighting armed conflicts for the past 20 years" you forgot a "0" more than 200 years

You  beat  me to the  fact!

[anon4546543]

Dumbastheycome, you are correct, a zero would have made 200 years of US invasions more plausible. But I meant that in the last 20 -30 years, China has been building trade relations on a non judgemental but purely economic reasoning. They have not waved their military around too much. They saved money and have now built a shield around their country, much in the same way that the US and Russia have done for decades. The US but not many others are hysterical. Their total control power base is being eroded. Who cares that China now has a military force in the South China Sea. They still rely on trade and all trading ships will be let through. Much as the US has military bases all around the world. Unsustainable but they cling to power. And at the very heart of the matter, that is what it is all about. Clinging tenuously to power.  

[Morch]

MAD was a semi-viable concept when two parties were involved. Given nowadays proliferation, the chances for "oops!" are way up. Not sure that's the road to go.

 

I don't think the PRC is looking for a fight - economic or otherwise. There's nothing to be gained, at least not at the cost involved. Also, pretty sure they are not as confident of success or unaware of risks. Those harping on the PRC armed forces supposed advances, may wish to consider that their actual combat experience is minimal. Whereas the US....yeah. And no, fighting insurgents isn't the same as fighting a "real" war.

 

 

[Cynical Sailor]

MAD was a semi-viable concept when two parties were involved. Given nowadays proliferation, the chances for "oops!" are way up. Not sure that's the road to go.

 

I don't think the PRC is looking for a fight - economic or otherwise. There's nothing to be gained, at least not at the cost involved. Also, pretty sure they are not as confident of success or unaware of risks. Those harping on the PRC armed forces supposed advances, may wish to consider that their actual combat experience is minimal. Whereas the US....yeah. And no, fighting insurgents isn't the same as fighting a "real" war.

 

 

The US Navy would take out Laoning and its escorts on Day 1 should conflict eventuate (either by surface-to-surface missiles, fighter launched missiles or sub-launched torpedoes. The Chinese know this, as does the rest of the world. Same same for their new island based installations. They have zero maritime conflict experience and their losses would reflect this. Sure, the Yanks might suffer the loss of a surface combatant or two but this would be acceptable for the greater good.

Here's hoping it doesn't come to that (although I'm yet to be convinced).

[Dumbastheycome]

16 hours ago, Cynical Sailor said:

The US Navy would take out Laoning and its escorts on Day 1 should conflict eventuate (either by surface-to-surface missiles, fighter launched missiles or sub-launched torpedoes. The Chinese know this, as does the rest of the world. Same same for their new island based installations. They have zero maritime conflict experience and their losses would reflect this. Sure, the Yanks might suffer the loss of a surface combatant or two but this would be acceptable for the greater good.

Here's hoping it doesn't come to that (although I'm yet to be convinced).

The  greater  good is?

[ilostmypassword]

On 2/27/2017 at 10:31 PM, Grubster said:

Yeah the Japanese had us by the short hairs too didn't they? Where else could Trump buy these appliances from after the last five presidents let all these companies go to china? Duh

The last 5 presidents let them go? You mean, each of the last 5 presidents gave them permission?

[anon4546543]

 here we go again. Lots of huffing and puffing about my daddy could beat your daddy. Forget about superpowers fighting each other. All countries have a right to build a shield around their borders. US and Russia was after WW11. China in the last 20 years. Trump again to build fences or perhaps it is a new Wall as Russia tried to do in the 60's.

Face facts and not let bluster get in the way. The US will not engage Britain, France, Russia or China in any war that may lead to an escalation to the Nukes. Embargoes and trade war maybe. Forget the small penis syndrome, any nuclear war is the end of most life on this earth.

 The US has bases all around the globe. Newer economies are starting to do the same. No need to cause alarm, non productive investment in arms building will never produce real outcomes in terms of real growth. Just a waste of money.

 China showed what it could do to US forces in Korea when Gen MacArthur  tried to "build a military wall" along the Yala river which divides Korea and China. China kicked them right back to the Korean capital. The US screamed for a peace agreement. Now look at Chinese new military aircraft. 6 new prototypes soon to reach production which are far more than a match for US aircraft, especially the US F35 dud. Look it up. Janes Military Aircraft.

[boomerangutang]

Near future headline:  Russia allows Exxon to drill in its Arctic region.   

Some brief history:  Obama's administration wanted to disuade Exxon from drilling in the Arctic region for obvious reasons (Exxon Valdez, for one).   That pissed off Exxon.  Now, the friend-to-all-greedy-billionaires Trump is paving the way for Exxon to pollute the Arctic.  By appointing Exxon's CEO Tillerson as Sec. of State (Tillerson and Trump are already bosom buddies with Putin), Trump is greasing the private parts for a momentous 3-way shafting.

20 hours ago, spiderorchid said:

 here we go again. Lots of huffing and puffing about my daddy could beat your daddy. Forget about superpowers fighting each other. All countries have a right to build a shield around their borders. US and Russia was after WW11. China in the last 20 years. Trump again to build fences or perhaps it is a new Wall as Russia tried to do in the 60's.

Face facts and not let bluster get in the way. The US will not engage Britain, France, Russia or China in any war that may lead to an escalation to the Nukes. Embargoes and trade war maybe. Forget the small penis syndrome, any nuclear war is the end of most life on this earth.

(edited for brevity)

excerpt from above quote: "The US will not engage Britain, France, Russia or China in any war that may lead to an escalation to the Nukes"

 

            Boomer responds; Certainly not UK or France, but Russia or China ....maybe. It should be clear to everyone by now, that Trump is not rational.  He can say and do any damn thing, no matter how ridiculous or wrong or impulsive or vindictive.  He's looser and less trustworthy than a loose cannon on a greasy deck on wooden ship without a rudder in a typhoon.

[derator01]

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