Beginners investment advice please

[al007]

37 minutes ago, Pinot said:

Y

Never invest in gold. It's pure speculation and should never be thought of as an investment. Anyone telling you to buy gold doesn't know what they're talking about. 

Dangerous and maybe uninformed comment, it is generally considered a safe haven

 

however never invest in anything you do not monitor on a daily basis, and preferably can cash out of in 12 hrs notice

 

property can be good but you always need to be able to be locked in for 5 to 7 yrs if markets go against you

[DrTuner]

Only invest as much as you're willing to walk away from.

[1DegreeN]

I strongly recommend you read Andrew Hallam's book "The Global Expatriate's Guide to Investing".  You can't trust Financial Advisers to put your interests before their own. Invest in low cost ETFs using an online platform such as Saxo's or TD's - watch out with US based brokerages, there can be tax issues. 

[TravelerEastWest]

On 3/1/2017 at 2:03 PM, al007 said:

I am a big fan of Warren Buffet, read as much as you can about this man

 

He believes very strongly in ETFs in fact he is close to winning a US1.0M bet that over a ten year span a simple ETF will outperform even the most expensively managed funds

 

As a retired Chartered Accountant who has had a good run over the last six years and averaged over 16% per annum, I would totally agree with Buffet, maybe a Vanguard or Ishares tracker of the Russell 2000 or S& P index, both low cost management

 

A low cost broker like Interactive Brokers also keeps costs low and leaves under your control when to sell, you can even press just one button and immediately cash out subject to markets being available to trade which is a longer period than just the stock exchange opening hours

 

 

Very good advice.

 

Also find yourself a very good tax accountant who specializes in taxes.

 

I like Schwab as they are user friendly with 24 hour service.

 

Investing a small amount in a large company like AIS in Thailand is fine not so risky and you might get around 5% dividends (last I looked a long time ago)

Edited March 2, 2017 by TravelerEastWest

[little mary sunshine]

$2000 each month in Indexed Mutual Funds...$1000 in

cash savings for emergencies.

[Orac]

Very good advice.
 
Also find yourself a very good tax accountant who specializes in taxes.
 
I like Schwab as they are user friendly with 24 hour service.
 
Investing a small amount in a large company like AIS in Thailand is fine not so risky and you might get around 5% dividends (last I looked a long time ago)

I would be wary about looking at Thai stocks just from a dividend point of view as shares prices tend to move in tandem with divvy payment. As example TMT, which I hold, pays strong dividends of over 8% however, it is paying a 1.5 baht a share dividend going XD this morning and price has dropped by 1.5 baht in this mornings trade so I will actually lose since divvy are taxable as opposed to capital gains from shares.

[al007]

9 hours ago, little mary sunshine said:

$2000 each month in Indexed Mutual Funds...$1000 in

cash savings for emergencies.

I think you will find mutual funds have been replaced by far lower cost ETF, and remember any ETF can be converted immediately to cash if the markets are open

[Nowisee]

On 3/1/2017 at 9:42 PM, al007 said:

I enjoy and like this comment, my friends used to say to me if your stockbroker is so good why is he still working

 

Well I retired at 49 and did my own thing,( lived on my own 60ft yacht, twin engines twin generators stabilisers etc etc etc) on the markets despite a couple of exceedingly expensive divorces I am still here today and quietly make money on the markets

 

As my wife said tonight at dinner,  despite my two cancers maybe God has chosen to leave me here for a while as maybe I am even too difficult for him to deal with

 

Be kind be loving be honest and love thy fellows and maybe you be OK

I use the term, "I can lose my own money, no need to pay someone to do it for me."

 

On 3/3/2017 at 0:19 PM, little mary sunshine said:

$2000 each month in Indexed Mutual Funds...$1000 in

cash savings for emergencies.

no no no  fees fees fees

 

There's an ETF that's tied to the thai market.  THD and it pays a dividend... I think over 3%.
Most of the Schwab Sector/Index ETFs paying good dividends carry no trade commission.
BTW, Schwab is now down to $4.95/trade. 

A lot of scared advice on here. 

Only a few giving sound advice about know what you're putting money into, diversify, don't take advice from or pay a broker, and use extreme caution when trading asian stocks.  

 

$3000 USD is not a small amount to have available for investing.   Pick solid aristocrat dividend paying stocks (best of breed in each sector), reinvest the dividend and don't try to "time" the market buying and selling.  Monitor what they're doing, watch the news on them and adjust if you need to.  Doing this into a Roth IRA is even better.

 

Putting money into a bank, most likely under 1% is financially safe, but sorta foolish.  

 

  

Edited March 5, 2017 by Nowisee

[al007]

On 3/1/2017 at 8:45 PM, bazza73 said:

If the OP is young, buy property. They don't make any more of it. Only buy in a country with 100% ownership.

 

Getting older, a mix of cash, shares, precious metals. I recommend investigating peer-to-peer lending websites. Much better interest rates than the big banks.

Very difficult to advise people, and everyone to their own

 

I like property as an investment but we have all seen crashes, look at the USA, if you are young it is still the best investment maybe, but be prepared to be locked in for life

 

Much better interest rates than big banks  MAYBE but for 2% more you may risk loosing all your capital, my comment be aware of the risk. personally a big no for me

 

Today I own a house, or the wife does with my money, and when I [paid it out I never again counted it

 

The rest is in USA equities, with not much in cash since the equities can any working day of the week be instantaneously be turned to cash

 

I can and always evaluate the risk factor and sleep factor, and without taking big risks I average well over 16% return per annum, today my favorites BAC, JPM, GS and City, a year ago RDS and BP yielding 6.5% and got growth well over 30% in one year, took my profits and moved to banks, three years ago I made big time on the likes of IBB and pharmaceuticals, but again switched out, sever yrs ago I liked potash and fertiliser again did well, of course I have had losses to, so has Warren Buffet but only a few

 

Another risk is spread you money too much and you will limit your upside

 

But still my favorite and for my wife when I am gone are ETFs like the Russel or S&P

 

I would be very interested to look at peer to peer lending site please give me a link, I always keep and open mind

[bazza73]

36 minutes ago, al007 said:

Very difficult to advise people, and everyone to their own

 

I like property as an investment but we have all seen crashes, look at the USA, if you are young it is still the best investment maybe, but be prepared to be locked in for life

 

Much better interest rates than big banks  MAYBE but for 2% more you may risk loosing all your capital, my comment be aware of the risk. personally a big no for me

 

Today I own a house, or the wife does with my money, and when I [paid it out I never again counted it

 

The rest is in USA equities, with not much in cash since the equities can any working day of the week be instantaneously be turned to cash

 

I can and always evaluate the risk factor and sleep factor, and without taking big risks I average well over 16% return per annum, today my favorites BAC, JPM, GS and City, a year ago RDS and BP yielding 6.5% and got growth well over 30% in one year, took my profits and moved to banks, three years ago I made big time on the likes of IBB and pharmaceuticals, but again switched out, sever yrs ago I liked potash and fertiliser again did well, of course I have had losses to, so has Warren Buffet but only a few

 

Another risk is spread you money too much and you will limit your upside

 

But still my favorite and for my wife when I am gone are ETFs like the Russel or S&P

 

I would be very interested to look at peer to peer lending site please give me a link, I always keep and open mind

https://www.marketlend.com.au/

https://www.ratesetter.com.au/

 

These are Australian peer-to-peer lenders. Google will find those based in the US and UK. Ratesetter has a UK parent lender.

Nothing is guaranteed risk-free; however, so far I'm quite happy with the results I'm getting.

 

Cheers

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by bazza73
Removal of unnecessary linkage

[xylophone]

Very hard to give investment advice on something like this, although I have to say that there is some good information here, especially that from al007.

 

One thing that hasn't been covered and is an absolute necessity before providing investment advice is that the investor needs to complete a "risk profile analysis" – – that is, more needs to be known about the investor and his goals, time spans, propensity for and to risk and his current investments, and of course his age.

 

Until all of that is known, everything else is pure speculation (sorry about the pun). Having said that, some general advice would be that index tracking funds in the main have lower fees than actively managed funds and the type of investment one should go in will be to a great extent determined by the investors need to access those funds, or his plans for them.

 

And yes, I have a financial planning qualification, although I have retired from that profession, and I did start and run an investment division for a large financial organisation and managed to build the fund from $100,000 to just under $2 billion in seven years before I took early retirement.

 

At my age, my investment strategies reflect my age and spending needs and the fact that I am not earning an income from my work, so I have to be conservative in my choices.

[al007]

56 minutes ago, bazza73 said:

https://www.marketlend.com.au/

https://www.ratesetter.com.au/

 

These are Australian peer-to-peer lenders. Google will find those based in the US and UK. Ratesetter has a UK parent lender.

Nothing is guaranteed risk-free; however, so far I'm quite happy with the results I'm getting.

 

Cheers

 

Bazza thanks I personally believe I have a much higher risk capacity than most

 

These links are interesting reading, however for me there is no way in this world I would consider this, even at twice the return

 

I wish you the best of luck Bazza and hope it continues to work for you, but not for me

[utalkin2me]

Why do all this reading and research when he can just drop a good portion of his monthly income into Thai mutual funds? Best to go with Aberdeen or Bangkok bank. The guys that know the market inside and out are doing all the heavy lifting for you, and investing a set amount every month is a pretty darned safe bet. There's actually a stat, that I forget the numbers exactly, but it's something crazy like if you'd have invested in the US stock market in the years before and after the depression if you just kept doing the same thing for like a few years after the depression hit you'd be even already. So how much ch are you really risking if you're looking long term? I'd define long term as at least ten years, and if you are looking to do shorter than they I'd say yes it's a gamble so just beware in that case. 

[al007]

8 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Why do all this reading and research when he can just drop a good portion of his monthly income into Thai mutual funds? Best to go with Aberdeen or Bangkok bank. The guys that know the market inside and out are doing all the heavy lifting for you, and investing a set amount every month is a pretty darned safe bet. There's actually a stat, that I forget the numbers exactly, but it's something crazy like if you'd have invested in the US stock market in the years before and after the depression if you just kept doing the same thing for like a few years after the depression hit you'd be even already. So how much ch are you really risking if you're looking long term? I'd define long term as at least ten years, and if you are looking to do shorter than they I'd say yes it's a gamble so just beware in that case. 

My opinion could be suicide

Go ETF s,  trackers low cost

[xylophone]

To the OP..................

 

– What age are you?

 

– If you have any outstanding debt (including a mortgage) then what is it costing you to service that debt because paying that off/down may equate to a better return than you can get on a particular investment.

 

– What do you intend to do with these funds that you wish to invest? What are they for?

 

– Do you have enough funds readily available for you now if you need them in case of emergencies or unforeseen events?

 

– How long do you wish to invest these funds for and will you need access to them in the short, medium or long-term?

 

– Do you have other investments, and if so what sort of investments are they?

 

– How do you feel about risk? Can you stand seeing the value of your investment rise and fall without worrying too much? 

 

These are just a few of the questions you should ask yourself or commit to paper before you proceed and then if you wish to you can research the basics of investing to see why you need to know this information before you invest.

 

Not only that, you need to know how various asset classes perform and also learn about diversification. You can also of course seek the advice of a professional and I see that you have a bank account in Australia, so if you wanted to you could seek the advice of an investment adviser in Australia and many of these if associated with a bank will give you their time free of charge, whilst others outside of that environment may charge you on a fee basis.

 

Whatever you decide, the amount of money you are considering saving needs to be carefully invested with everything else considered, and just plonking it into a fund/investment on the say-so of folks from an Internet forum, albeit well-meaning they may be, is not what I would recommend.

[al007]

There are many views

 

if you are going to be young and new here DO Nothing for the first six months continue to investigate and think

 

If you have no real estate maybe that should be your first investment 

 

LOCATION LOCATION and LOCATION

 

Aim for long term, if you moved would the income service the debt

[akirasan]

Thanks everybody you've given me a great deal to think about.  Indeed I am in no rush to do anything.

I'm going to chew over this for a few days and take the time to consider every piece of advice.  There are some good book recommendations so I'll go through those as well.

I did bring around $12k aud with me which I've left sitting in a Thai bank account.  I have an emergency fund sitting in another bank account.

I'm 39 now and while my self employment is doing well, I'm thinking about the future.  I should have thought about this many years ago but here I am now.  

Because I know nothing about money and markets, I'd rather invest in something and let somebody else watch it, like a manged fund.  I do like the idea of real estate although I haven't taken the time to familiarise myself with the local market.  Work has been terribly busy.  

So thank-you again everyone, you've all been a great help and I really appreciate all the replies.



 

Edited March 5, 2017 by akirasan

[xylophone]

13 minutes ago, akirasan said:

Thanks everybody you've given me a great deal to think about.  Indeed I am in no rush to do anything.

I'm going to chew over this for a few days and take the time to consider every piece of advice.  There are some good book recommendations so I'll go through those as well.

I did bring around $12k aud with me which I've left sitting in a Thai bank account.  I have an emergency fund sitting in another bank account.

I'm 39 now and while my self employment is doing well, I'm thinking about the future.  I should have thought about this many years ago but here I am now.  

Because I know nothing about money and markets, I'd rather invest in something and let somebody else watch it, like a manged fund.  I do like the idea of real estate although I haven't taken the time to familiarise myself with the local market.  Work has been terribly busy.  

So thank-you again everyone, you've all been a great help and I really appreciate all the replies.



 

I'm going to chew over this for a few days and take the time to consider every piece of advice.  There are some good book recommendations so I'll go through those as well.

 

That's a good start.

 

I did bring around $12k aud with me which I've left sitting in a Thai bank account.  I have an emergency fund sitting in another bank account.

 

So is that, as having money readily available when you are in a foreign country is not only a good backstop, it provides peace of mind, and that is something that money cannot always buy. Unfortunately the interest rate you will be getting is very low, but that's the market at the moment and the price you pay for short-term/emergency funds.

 

I'm 39 now and while my self employment is doing well, I'm thinking about the future.  I should have thought about this many years ago but here I am now.

 

You wouldn't be alone in that respect and many folk don't think about their future/retirement until past this age, would you believe.

 

Because I know nothing about money and markets, I'd rather invest in something and let somebody else watch it, like a manged fund.

 

IMO that is good thinking and that's what managed funds and the like are for and there are many out there at the moment which is why you will probably need professional advice as to which you should consider. Remember that management fees can eat into your returns quite considerably so investing in what are known as "index trackers", which have very low fees as a rule, can bring the best benefits. Analysis of investment funds over the years/decades has shown that in general the low fee index tracking funds outperform the higher fee actively managed funds around 80% of the time (at least when I last looked at this information).

 

There are managed funds out there which can cover all of the asset classes and diversify across markets and countries, so the work is done for you and you can get on with doing what you do best, which by the sound of it is working well and earning a good salary!

 

I do like the idea of real estate although I haven't taken the time to familiarise myself with the local market.  Work has been terribly busy.

 

Buying real estate in this country has its own inbuilt "problems" and there are many threads on this, however I will add that my personal opinion is I would be wary of buying in a country in which I cannot live permanently and which seems to have a greater element of "risk" around property. Things to consider are that if you had to leave in a hurry, you may not be able to sell it when you want to, or like many other folk I know here, may not be able to sell it for quite a few years, so your investment is tied up in a country and you can't access the funds unless you take a heavy loss. Of course people will say that you can rent it, but then you have all the problems associated with being an absentee landlord and these in a foreign country can be manyfold.

 

Furthermore you say that work has been terribly busy, so do what you do best and let others manage your funds for you because that's what they do best, whilst you set about providing them with the savings necessary to be able to fulfil your future needs and quite possibly early retirement!

 

All the very best to you and good luck.

 

 

[al007]

2 hours ago, xylophone said:

 

Furthermore you say that work has been terribly busy, so do what you do best and let others manage your funds for you because that's what they do best, whilst you set about providing them with the savings necessary to be able to fulfil your future needs and quite possibly early retirement!

Xylaphone has helped me a lot on medical matters especially

 

However whilst I agree to a limited extent with his last paragraph, it is almost impossible to find an honest competent financial adviser, my UK stockbroker was still working at 70, I initially gave him discretionary management, it was not until I withdrew this discretion that I started to save fees and actually net make money, I retired at 49, and thank you God continue to do well on financial markets

 

My philosophy is I earn it why pay someone else to loose it, if it is going to be lost at least let me be responsible

 

Money is a hard commodity to accumulate but very easy to loose

 

My father a simple dental surgeon managed his money and first bought during the Suez crisis, he read the FT and Investors Chronicle, he was not a risk taker or a man trained in money, he did very well

[xylophone]

13 hours ago, al007 said:

Xylaphone has helped me a lot on medical matters especially

 

However whilst I agree to a limited extent with his last paragraph, it is almost impossible to find an honest competent financial adviser, my UK stockbroker was still working at 70, I initially gave him discretionary management, it was not until I withdrew this discretion that I started to save fees and actually net make money, I retired at 49, and thank you God continue to do well on financial markets

 

My philosophy is I earn it why pay someone else to loose it, if it is going to be lost at least let me be responsible

 

Money is a hard commodity to accumulate but very easy to loose

 

My father a simple dental surgeon managed his money and first bought during the Suez crisis, he read the FT and Investors Chronicle, he was not a risk taker or a man trained in money, he did very well

Quote. " it is almost impossible to find an honest competent financial adviser"     

 

Firstly al007, thank you for your compliment and positive feedback, it is much appreciated.

 

Onto the subject of fees and financial advisors, I think the world has changed a lot since the old days when there were funds and fund managers out there which were charging up to 5% management fees, as well as entry and exit fees! Yes hard to believe now isn't it.

 

I did mention in my post that many banks have financial advisers and their advice is free and the funds they offer are, because of competition, relatively low in fees. Furthermore if any of the advisers was found to be guilty of "malpractice" then the bank will reimburse the customer; a nice safety net if you wish.

 

These days there are many funds to choose from and the likes of Vanguard can offer a world shares index with a fee of around 0.2%. In my day, the managed fund portfolio we put together for investors covered the MSCI world shares index (investing in Canada, USA, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, UK, Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore......a good spread, and if one wanted one could include an Emerging Markets fund) along with fixed interest, cash and property funds and the total fees would be on average less than 1%, and that included as many meetings with the investment adviser as the client wanted, along with quarterly or annual reporting......no other fees involved.

 

One does hear of the occasional rip-off with regards to financial advisors, however the financial regulatory market has tightened a great deal over the last few years, especially in the areas in which I operated, Australia and New Zealand, although I don't know much about the UK market.

 

If you are of a mind to manage your own funds and have the time, knowledge and inclination (not to mention skill) to do so then good on you, however my point was made in relation to the op's mention that his work is extremely busy and that he knows very little about investing.

 

Finally, I do hope that the areas we discussed in our PMs are progressing well for you – – all the best.

[utalkin2me]

19 hours ago, al007 said:

My opinion could be suicide

Go ETF s,  trackers low cost

This is worth a quick read. Baht or dollar cost averaging has a simulated investor as doubling his money six years after the Great Depression. I.e. That is the worst possible case scenario. Doesn't sound like suicide to me but to each their own. That's all assuming you're in long term of course. 

 

http://www.clark.com/dollar-cost-averaging-through-the-great-depression

[Kinnock]

On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 5:29 PM, CGW said:

Invest with any of the well known Bangkok "financial experts" if you have the same experience I have had you will have very little money left and no worries! Apart from being skint again off course!

Unfortunately that's all too true.  The Thailand based financial 'experts' invest your money based on the commission they get paid, then run off to Cambodia when they lose your investment, and start all over again.

[utalkin2me]

1 hour ago, Kinnock said:

Unfortunately that's all too true.  The Thailand based financial 'experts' invest your money based on the commission they get paid, then run off to Cambodia when they lose your investment, and start all over again.

Who are you guys talking about though. I'm sure that's true but it doesn't help if we don't know who they are.

 

i can tell you now the folks from Aberdeen and Bangkok bank mutual fund department are great to deal with and also do a very good job. 

[CGW]

1 hour ago, Kinnock said:

Unfortunately that's all too true.  The Thailand based financial 'experts' invest your money based on the commission they get paid, then run off to Cambodia when they lose your investment, and start all over again.

Some are still operating, SEC approved n all! and have been for some years, there marketing is very good, pry on the vulnerability of people and "forget" to disclose the fees they are charging you and the fees that are taken by the investment establishments! which are then paid back in part by the investment to the "experts" for putting their clients money into the funds in the first place! Double dipping!

As previously stated they never put the client first, fee is number one driver for them!

[CGW]

2 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Who are you guys talking about though. I'm sure that's true but it doesn't help if we don't know who they are.

 

i can tell you now the folks from Aberdeen and Bangkok bank mutual fund department are great to deal with and also do a very good job. 

I would love to post names but doubt the post would last very long!

[Kinnock]

1 minute ago, utalkin2me said:

Who are you guys talking about though. I'm sure that's true but it doesn't help if we don't know who they are.

 

i can tell you now the folks from Aberdeen and Bangkok bank mutual fund department are great to deal with and also do a very good job. 

We can't name them due to defamation laws and forum rules - one I know of used to post on this forum regularly, but not any more (as far as I know) and he was also recommended to me by a fellow ex-pat, but that still didn't prevent bad investments based on commission.  I specified low risk - and got high risk/total loss. 

[CGW]

32 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

We can't name them due to defamation laws and forum rules - one I know of used to post on this forum regularly, but not any more (as far as I know) and he was also recommended to me by a fellow ex-pat, but that still didn't prevent bad investments based on commission.  I specified low risk - and got high risk/total loss. 

That rings a few bells! believe we have "mutual acquaintances" unfortunately!

[al007]

4 hours ago, utalkin2me said:

23 hours ago, al007 said:

My opinion could be suicide

Go ETF s,  trackers low cost

This is worth a quick read. Baht or dollar cost averaging has a simulated investor as doubling his money six years after the Great Depression. I.e. That is the worst possible case scenario. Doesn't sound like suicide to me but to each their own. That's all assuming you're in long term of course. 

 

Yes maybe my comment is a little harsh

 

All I know is each time I go to Bangkok Bank they clamor to sell my wife life assurance, she does not need it I am her insurance, I met with their investment arm and considered the very lacking

 

As regards Aberdeen they were a UK firm many years ago and then badly crashed, also their fees are substantially higher than a tracker fund

 

I bank with Bangkok bank 

 

I can not and could not recommend anyone and that is my predicament when I die, and my reasons for stipulating my wife can only hold two ETFs, one vanguard and the other ishares, both ETFs of either the S&P 500 or the Russell

 

This is also the advice from Warren Buffet for his wife when he dies, personally I can achieve returns close to this man, but would never manage someone else's money, too old and too risky for me if I got it wrong

 

As a retired Chartered Accountant I spot these scammers all the time, I am very fortunate to have the knowledge to generally be able to invest well

 

As a Chartered Accountant I would also say many Chartered Accounts are not competent to manage your money and I have achieved the same qualification

 

Long term in a tracker fund and you should do well and by long term I mean 10 to 15 Yrs based on past experience but then that is no guide to the foture, I monitor my investments probably at least five times each day, and have on a few occasions cashed out in full and waited

 

Even my own Trustees and administrators for my QROPS  in Gibraltar are crooks, fortunately they can not get at my funds, but neither can I without their help, but I can buy and sell on a daily basis at my sole discretion

[ExpatJ]

Good advice already given here- follow Buffets suggestion- put 50% in an ETF that tracks the US market (VOO ETF), 30% in to a fund that tracks world stocks (VT ETF), 20% into bonds (BND ETF). Over 10 years that will get you more than most hedge funds, managed funds out there. Plus fees are crazy low  0.04 % - 0.2 % per year. 

 

Don't ever to speak professional financial advisors unless you have 2-3 million US$ + in cash to invest (and then speak to some well known ones in your home country) and/or have tax issues that you need advice on. Any amount less use the buffet model. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by ExpatJ

[al007]

24 minutes ago, ExpatJ said:

Good advice already given here- follow Buffets suggestion- put 50% in an ETF that tracks the US market (VOO ETF), 30% in to a fund that tracks world stocks (VT ETF), 20% into bonds (BND ETF). Over 10 years that will get you more than most hedge funds, managed funds out there. Plus fees are crazy low  0.04 % - 0.2 % per year. 

 

Don't ever to speak professional financial advisors unless you have 2-3 million US$ + in cash to invest (and then speak to some well known ones in your home country) and/or have tax issues that you need advice on. Any amount less use the buffet model. 

I very much like and concurs with the above statement

 

Even the very rich get taken to the cleaners, look at Bernie Madoff and the millions/billions he robbed people of

 

I have yet to hear of people following the advice in the first paragraph above waking up one morning and all their money is gone, even with a crash it will generally with time recover, with the likes of Madoff there is no route to recovery