World scorns Thai lies on rights, democracy

[sjaak327]

16 minutes ago, halloween said:

So no comparison - unsurprising! If you can't nominate ONE democracy that the last compared to, how can you deny that it was a farce?

Ignore the fugitive criminal then, do you know of any government whose members are paid by a 3rd party, a 3rd party allowed access to cabinet meetings? In most democracies, both would be serious criminal offences.

You don't know what's wrong with nepotism and cronyism on a party list? Do you think Chalerm could be elected any other way?

You can't defend the Shinawatra regimes so you attack the present. All I am saying is that the previous democracy was a farce, and change was needed. When democracy is restored we can judge the change.

I am not defending the Shinawatra regimes, merely pointing out that they did have an undisputable mandate (4 consequetive mandates in fact). Furthermore they couldn't do as they pleased, as at least two PM's have been impeached whilst in office, numerous others have also been impeached and banned from politics from five years.

 

Therfore that democratic system was not a farce, there were ample checks and balances in place, and the 2007 constitution added even more of those and a half appointed senate, further deminishing the democratic level of the 1997 constitution.

 

Again, you still are either refusing to understand or willingly trying to pretend you don't understand, how the 'approved' charter will not return democracy to Thailand. Thailand will get elections (when we don't know yet) but those elections won't really mean anything, because the fully appointed 250 member senate not only has a say in who can become PM, they will have the power to send such a PM and the government packing in case their paymasters don't like what they are doing.

 

As to attacking the current regime, yes as they are without any doubt worse than any of the previous governments, we see examples of nepotism, cronysim and blatant corruption directly involving the current regime, only now there won't be any impeachment proceedings, no court cases as they are literally above the law. Furthermore, there is no possibility for the Thai electorate to vote them out of office either. And as above, they have now ensured staging a coup is no longer necessary, the appointed senate has negated any future coups.

 

In effect, Thailand will no longer belong to all elligeable Thai voters, it will belong to a select few Thai citizens. The people blowing their whistles back in 2013/2014 have been warned to be careful what they wished for, unfortunately for Thailand that warning fell on deaf ears.

Edited March 8, 2017 by sjaak327

[aussieinthailand]

On 3/8/2017 at 9:26 AM, halloween said:

The democracy was working? That may be your delusion, it's not mine. Besides your list of trivialities, you might also consider those being prosecuted, and those yet to be, for their abuse of the democratic system.

Well one day there will be a new power in Thailand and then if they are serious they will reject and revoke the mother of amnesty's the junta gifted themselves and go after them for crimes committed.

What I have never seen you do is apply the same standards to the junta and his family as you do with the Shinz and all things red, people who do not apply the same standards to all sides are call what???

[halloween]

8 hours ago, aussieinthailand said:

Well one day there will be a new power in Thailand and then if they are serious they will reject and revoke the mother of amnesty's the junta gifted themselves and go after them for crimes committed.

What I have never seen you do is apply the same standards to the junta and his family as you do with the Shinz and all things red, people who do not apply the same standards to all sides are call what???

One hour before this you wrote " Well if any of them can produce proof irrefutable that a crime has been committed, then cool let justice be done,   "

Do you have any irrefutable proof of junta crimes committed? How does that compare with your bad case of Shinawatra sycophancy?

[sjaak327]

1 minute ago, halloween said:

One hour before this you wrote " Well if any of them can produce proof irrefutable that a crime has been committed, then cool let justice be done,   "

Do you have any irrefutable proof of junta crimes committed? How does that compare with your bad case of Shinawatra sycophancy?

Is that a serious question ? The list of crimes commited by the Junta makes anything Thaksin or anyone connected to him has ever done look like absolute child's play.

 

Unless of course you actually believe abolishing constitutions, democracy and basic human rights to not be crimes.

 

Maybe you believe  people that dare to speak out against the Junta being rounded up for attitude adjustment sessions or worse, without any due process to be perfectly fine.

 

Time to take off your rose tinted glases, you cannot possibly be serious.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I think trying to compare their activities is like comparing apples and oranges, both in a bowl of rotten fruit.

 

The Thaksin regime's governing policies weren't as broadly intrusive and abusive as the current lot, since they were focused more on self-enrichment and operating within at least the veneer of democracy. But, if you also remember his war on drugs and by most accounts the extra-judicial killings of what was said to be 2000+ people before it was finally stopped, that alone certainly goes beyond the direct things the current lot have done at the individual level.

 

So which is worse: killing a few thousand people outside of the rule of law, or, adopting policies that strip the basic rights away from an entire country of people.  Honestly, I don't know how to answer that question. As I said at the beginning, different kinds of fruit in a big rotten bowl.

 

[sjaak327]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I think trying to compare their activities is like comparing apples and oranges, both in a bowl of rotten fruit.

 

The Thaksin regime's governing policies weren't as broadly intrusive and abusive as the current lot, since they were focused more on self-enrichment and operating within at least the veneer of democracy. But, if you also remember his war on drugs and by most accounts the extra-judicial killings of what was said to be 2000+ people before it was finally stopped, that alone certainly goes beyond the direct things the current lot have done at the individual level.

 

So which is worse: killing a few thousand people outside of the rule of law, or, adopting policies that strip the basic rights away from an entire country of people.  Honestly, I don't know how to answer that question. As I said at the beginning, different kinds of fruit in a big rotten bowl.

 

Yes the infamous war on drugs. Why do you think the powers that be will never pin him for that ? Maybe because they were involved and supported that war ?

[hawker9000]

I think trying to compare their activities is like comparing apples and oranges, both in a bowl of rotten fruit.
 
The Thaksin regime's governing policies weren't as broadly intrusive and abusive as the current lot, since they were focused more on self-enrichment and operating within at least the veneer of democracy. But, if you also remember his war on drugs and by most accounts the extra-judicial killings of what was said to be 2000+ people before it was finally stopped, that alone certainly goes beyond the direct things the current lot have done at the individual level.
 
So which is worse: killing a few thousand people outside of the rule of law, or, adopting policies that strip the basic rights away from an entire country of people.  Honestly, I don't know how to answer that question. As I said at the beginning, different kinds of fruit in a big rotten bowl.
 

That's kind of the problem in a nutshell. Thailand lurches from one unenviable political environment to another. The country seems incapable of developing any truly good options for itself and has no worthwhile constitutional compass. The large authoritarian regime to the north is only too happy to contribute "direction" in such situations and so we see the only southeast asian nation to have never been colonised being colonized...

[Mook23]

On Tuesday, March 07, 2017 at 1:14 AM, darksidedog said:

One wonders how the PM is going to spin this one. 

Easy: Farang. No. Undahsuhtand. 

Our inferior farlang way is not applicable to thailand. When the universe expanded from its singularity its main purpose was siam. All heavens and stars and solar systems spin around siam and the supreme leader. Him big. Universe. Him. Suhmall. Prayuth is the supremest being ever existed in the space-time as we know it. Siam is the mother of all. Khrap.

[halloween]

10 hours ago, sjaak327 said:

Is that a serious question ? The list of crimes commited by the Junta makes anything Thaksin or anyone connected to him has ever done look like absolute child's play.

 

Unless of course you actually believe abolishing constitutions, democracy and basic human rights to not be crimes.

 

Maybe you believe  people that dare to speak out against the Junta being rounded up for attitude adjustment sessions or worse, without any due process to be perfectly fine.

 

Time to take off your rose tinted glases, you cannot possibly be serious.

Aah, you're a real dreamer aren't you. All those airy fairy concepts stolen, huge crimes compared to the parasite that has bloated himself on the wealth of the Thai people. But HIS crimes are OK, he had a mandate, just another way of saying elections.

You think I have rose glasses, while you tell me how great things were under Shinawatra democracy, where the PTP had the right to its own militia. Short term memory loss is a sign of dementia.

[sjaak327]

1 hour ago, halloween said:

Aah, you're a real dreamer aren't you. All those airy fairy concepts stolen, huge crimes compared to the parasite that has bloated himself on the wealth of the Thai people. But HIS crimes are OK, he had a mandate, just another way of saying elections.

You think I have rose glasses, while you tell me how great things were under Shinawatra democracy, where the PTP had the right to its own militia. Short term memory loss is a sign of dementia.

Nowhere did I claim his crimes were ok. I fully support prosecution for them. Of course the absolute condition would be that others are also prosecuted. Since you seem to be ok with the Junta's amnesty, you have no right to question other criminals. Look up how a proper justice system is supposed to be working. It's not supposed to be like you seem to like it, only crimes committed by people you don't like are prosecuted whilst the people you like can do whatever they want without any consequences, because despite all the diversions, that IS the current situation in Thailand.

 

Thaksin is laughing his ass off, because with this kind of hypocracy, there are precious few countries who would extradite him to Thailand. And for good reason, those junta blokes never learn from history, or in other words are simply unbelieveably stupid.

[aussieinthailand]

12 hours ago, halloween said:

One hour before this you wrote " Well if any of them can produce proof irrefutable that a crime has been committed, then cool let justice be done,   "

Do you have any irrefutable proof of junta crimes committed? How does that compare with your bad case of Shinawatra sycophancy?

Duh,,,   hello,,,   The coup was a crime under then existing Thai law then they gave themselves amnesty for past present and future, so yeah man "PROOF IRREFUTABLE"....!  How does that compare with your junta sycophancy?

And then you have the junta sanctioned abductions which after sanitizing they called invitations to "attitude adjustment" or what the Viet cong called re-education camps.   But hey you know all this but still refuse to call a duck a duck

And that is why the headline, The world scorns Thai lies on rights democracy.......!

[Ace of Pop]

How old are you lot?.My crowd stopped bellyaching like this when our balls dropped n found out work or remain poor.[emoji1434]?[emoji383]


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[yellowboat]

51 minutes ago, Ace of Pop said:

How old are you lot?.My crowd stopped bellyaching like this when our balls dropped n found out work or remain poor.?


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Wow, what an uneducated statement.  Does your crowd know Benjamin Franklin ?  He was both rich and loved freedom.  And he would encourage you to seek freedoms rather than to just give up. 

 

"Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

 

When did your crowd give up on freedom and why ?  Because you all needed to work ?

Edited March 10, 2017 by yellowboat

[Ace of Pop]

Benjamin was a drunk and you still waffle like 35 yo Teacher.Thais in general are not Malcontents by nature and find Westerners obsessed with bickering about freedom they abuse by poking their nose into other Nations Business


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[mtls2005]

With what is, I believe, the only currently ruling Junta government in the world, bent on returning Thailand to a simpler, happier time (early 1800's?) it is not hard to understand that some things like basic "human rights" will be subject restriction.

 

Freedom of speech, assembly, religion, reading, sandwich-consumption have had to be curtailed because the "good people" feel the masses cannot handle those sorts of "rights".

 

Of course when the whistle-blowers and clappers protested that was OK.  

 

Rights seems to be bestowed based on status, a la sakdina.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2017 by mtls2005

[Becker]

6 hours ago, halloween said:

Aah, you're a real dreamer aren't you. All those airy fairy concepts stolen, huge crimes compared to the parasite that has bloated himself on the wealth of the Thai people. But HIS crimes are OK, he had a mandate, just another way of saying elections.

You think I have rose glasses, while you tell me how great things were under Shinawatra democracy, where the PTP had the right to its own militia. Short term memory loss is a sign of dementia.

No, the dreamer is you, halloween. Almost nobody (anyone at all?) on TV is claiming that Thaksin is not guilty of any crimes. But few of us are as gullible as yourself to believe that the junta is in any way different, and that the reason for the coup was anything else than greed.

You call the treasonous crimes of overthrowing a democratically elected government, tearing up the constitution, suspending basic human rights, giving themselves a whopper of an amnesty "airy, fairy concepts". Says a lot about you, and nothing good. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by Becker

[yellowboat]

1 hour ago, Ace of Pop said:

Benjamin was a drunk and you still waffle like 35 yo Teacher.Thais in general are not Malcontents by nature and find Westerners obsessed with bickering about freedom they abuse by poking their nose into other Nations Business


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Actually there is no waffling.  You are being told.  They were all drunks and womanizers who, in their spare time, created a great nation.  Ben was also a smart guy sober or drunk.

 

Your crowd allows people to walk all over them like it is something to be proud of.  It is not.  Here is something to be told to your crowd :

 

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) 

[Ace of Pop]

8 minutes ago, yellowboat said:

Actually there is no waffling.  You are being told.  They were all drunks and womanizers who, in their spare time, created a great nation.  Ben was also a smart guy sober or drunk.

 

Your crowd allows people to walk all over them like it is something to be proud of.  It is not.  Here is something to be told to your crowd :

 

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) 

Well it is Break Time.

[jayboy]

Ok, the countries I would support throwing mud at another country would be those that have no human right abuses of their own and no blood on their hands. Or do you believe that Thailand has the right to publicly  call the US out for what it is. A morally superior hypocritical nation that loves tossing mud at other countries and denying everything that their country of truth, justice and the american way does all the time. That is/was my only point and I see no point debating it any further.

Obviously ill thought out nonsense but the view expressed is depressingly common.Nobody suggests that the US doesn't have difficult issues at the present but we know what the best US values are - and they are in fact universal values - life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness.This kind of moral equivalence above is intellectually bankrupt and designed to let appalling regimes off the hook.Thailand values are not universal values and have little point other than to prop up discredited and feudal authoritarianism.

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[anon4546543]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

Obviously ill thought out nonsense but the view expressed is depressingly common.Nobody suggests that the US doesn't have difficult issues at the present but we know what the best US values are - and they are in fact universal values - life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness.This kind of moral equivalence above is intellectually bankrupt and designed to let appalling regimes off the hook.Thailand values are not universal values and have little point other than to prop up discredited and feudal authoritarianism.

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Let he who is without guilt cast the first stone

[Jimbo in Thailand]

During these tumultuous times here in the former Land of Smiles  post-May-2013, I'm just extremely pleased to discover open discussion here in the thaivisa.com trenches, specifically about Thailand's current wonderful government 'leadership', structure, and direction.   How's that for putting it so euphemistically?  Or maybe I'm just polishing a turd?

 

Yep,  I was under the impression that ALL negative discussion regarding Fearless Leader and/or his regime was verboten throughout the Kingdom.  All I can say is good on ya mates, please keep the open dialog going.  [2 thumbs waaay up my fellow thaivisa.com guys and gals!]  

Edited March 10, 2017 by Jimbo in Thailand

[Dumbastheycome]

So much  fun.  Knockin  away at  what is  . Meanwhile  Trump is elected  to instigate undemocratic dictates having been  unelected  by the  majority because the  system provisions  says  that would  be unrepresentative ( by way of inconvenient )!

Yep. Thats  the  pinnacle  of the ultimated Demoracy! Don't  bother  with spell  check !

In the  meantime  I don't  give  a  monkey's  toss  about  the critical  comments of Thailand's situation.

There  have  been  no  claims  to  being a   Democracy. Only to be  functioning  under  the  auspices of democratic principles in the process  of  instituting a constitutional basis for replacing  feudalism  with a more  democratic platform.

Much of the infrastructural improvements throughout Thailand  have  been left unreported let  alone  long term projects  that are underway which  have  and/or will be of  benefit to Thai society  as a  whole. 

Instead  derision  over failures or delays more  to do with bringing  to  account those  who would prefer to  retain less social  freedom of opportunity.

Meanwhile  the  lil pet  monkey affiliates  of the  world via the UN applaud  the  US  in coercing international finger pointing whilst in contradiction of principle the  US has leapt  into an enhanced  era of discrimination , false  domination and promises  of increased  militarization. 

Thailand  has  moved  forwards  10 years in the  last 4 in my estimation.

The  US  has moved  backwards 20 in  1 year in my estimation  and international  estimation  may be  similar.

You  don't  know what  you never  had!

 

 

[anon4546543]

1 hour ago, Dumbastheycome said:

So much  fun.  Knockin  away at  what is  . Meanwhile  Trump is elected  to instigate undemocratic dictates having been  unelected  by the  majority because the  system provisions  says  that would  be unrepresentative ( by way of inconvenient )!

Yep. Thats  the  pinnacle  of the ultimated Demoracy! Don't  bother  with spell  check !

In the  meantime  I don't  give  a  monkey's  toss  about  the critical  comments of Thailand's situation.

There  have  been  no  claims  to  being a   Democracy. Only to be  functioning  under  the  auspices of democratic principles in the process  of  instituting a constitutional basis for replacing  feudalism  with a more  democratic platform.

Much of the infrastructural improvements throughout Thailand  have  been left unreported let  alone  long term projects  that are underway which  have  and/or will be of  benefit to Thai society  as a  whole. 

Instead  derision  over failures or delays more  to do with bringing  to  account those  who would prefer to  retain less social  freedom of opportunity.

Meanwhile  the  lil pet  monkey affiliates  of the  world via the UN applaud  the  US  in coercing international finger pointing whilst in contradiction of principle the  US has leapt  into an enhanced  era of discrimination , false  domination and promises  of increased  militarization. 

Thailand  has  moved  forwards  10 years in the  last 4 in my estimation.

The  US  has moved  backwards 20 in  1 year in my estimation  and international  estimation  may be  similar.

You  don't  know what  you never  had!

 

 

I don't know how to agree with you more.

I travel around my area of Prachinburi, and I have never seen so many infrastructure developments that are happening. It ranges from clearing up marshes that were once water catchment areas. All the roadside drains are being refurbished, upgraded or installed. Roads  are being widened and repaired. This never happened until 2014.

I have lived here for 6 years and things are actually happening. If this is dictatorship, I do not see it. The police and military treat me with respect. Everything is peaceful. QED

[sjaak327]

3 hours ago, spiderorchid said:

I don't know how to agree with you more.

I travel around my area of Prachinburi, and I have never seen so many infrastructure developments that are happening. It ranges from clearing up marshes that were once water catchment areas. All the roadside drains are being refurbished, upgraded or installed. Roads  are being widened and repaired. This never happened until 2014.

I have lived here for 6 years and things are actually happening. If this is dictatorship, I do not see it. The police and military treat me with respect. Everything is peaceful. QED

Right, lived in Thailand for 6 years, your point of reference if extremely narrow one would logically say. I have been in Thailand a good while longer, and the claim that roads weren't being repaired prior to 2014 is absolutely false and untrue.

 

As to being treated with respect, there are numerous examples of people merely speaking their minds that aren't treated with respect by the military. Think attitude adjustments, and court cases by a military court being put away for sharing or liking facebook posts.

 

Amazing how people can be this ignorant and blind. Maybe a case of not wanting to see or know.

 

For an example just how much respect the current regime has for Thai citizens:

 

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by sjaak327

[Ace of Pop]

I don't know how to agree with you more.
I travel around my area of Prachinburi, and I have never seen so many infrastructure developments that are happening. It ranges from clearing up marshes that were once water catchment areas. All the roadside drains are being refurbished, upgraded or installed. Roads  are being widened and repaired. This never happened until 2014.
I have lived here for 6 years and things are actually happening. If this is dictatorship, I do not see it. The police and military treat me with respect. Everything is peaceful. QED

That's as most see things except the Lefty Academics.[emoji67]‍[emoji439][emoji67]‍[emoji310]


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[baboon]

1 hour ago, Ace of Pop said:

That's as most see things except the Lefty Academics.‍‍


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No it isn't. It is the way politically illiterate dullards who give the right wing a bad name see it.

[soalbundy]

Oh dear, democracy, is that where you get to put your cross on a bit of paper once every 4 years? The establishment does what it wants, the populist hiccup in the West will fade and it will be back to normal soon, the military here will fade away and pull the strings in the background as they have always done no matter who is in 'power'. Barring extremes like Hitler,Stalin and Mao ze tung i see no advantage to so called democracy which is short term thinking with a bit of pandering to the plebs so you can get voted in to the gravy train again,sometimes a bit of benign dictatorship is needed to get things done.

[baboon]

9 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Oh dear, democracy, is that where you get to put your cross on a bit of paper once every 4 years? The establishment does what it wants, the populist hiccup in the West will fade and it will be back to normal soon, the military here will fade away and pull the strings in the background as they have always done no matter who is in 'power'. Barring extremes like Hitler,Stalin and Mao ze tung i see no advantage to so called democracy which is short term thinking with a bit of pandering to the plebs so you can get voted in to the gravy train again,sometimes a bit of benign dictatorship is needed to get things done.

No, it is where the people can make a difference and really upset the establishment by voting Brexit / Trump against their wishes. It beats benign dictatorship which is never really that hands down. How do you get rid of the 'benign' dictator when you have had enough of him? That's right, you don't. Call for his removal and it is off to prison or an early grave, which isn't benign in my book...

[jayboy]

That's as most see things except the Lefty Academics.[emoji67]‍[emoji439][emoji67]‍[emoji310]


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Without questioning your well argued and intelligent premise at all perhaps it would be also be relevant to seek the views of the Thai people on the excellent current government.This could be achieved by holding early general elections under a non partisan constitution.In view of the huge popularity of military rule and the inevitable triumphal victory I am sure the Junta is keen to seek the nation's willing endorsement.

[soalbundy]

3 hours ago, baboon said:

No, it is where the people can make a difference and really upset the establishment by voting Brexit / Trump against their wishes. It beats benign dictatorship which is never really that hands down. How do you get rid of the 'benign' dictator when you have had enough of him? That's right, you don't. Call for his removal and it is off to prison or an early grave, which isn't benign in my book...

I wouldn't call Trump an example of making a positive difference, he hasn't finished reading all his batman comics yet, as for Brexit i feel it was a bad bad mistake but the one thing positive about it is when the Brits ask to rejoin they will have to take the Euro and dump the pound. How do you get rid of a benign dictator? well even the really evil dictators are gone, nothing goes on for ever, even fat Kim is just a footnote when seen in historical terms. The French revolution collapsed on itself but brought about a positive change for the country as did Stalin who was far from benign but propelled his country forward industrially as did Mao but they to are gone with the wind.

 

People will only stand for so much even though the plebs are easily swayed eventually something breaks. True democracy can only be had with a population under 5,000 people, more than 5,000 makes it unmanageable to vote on everything, after that it is just a name, like communism which never existed except as a dictatorship with a new name. The one enduring power plant in any country is the establishment, be it N Korea, Russia, China, America or the UK, The establishment rules ( watch 'yes minister'). Certainly the voters can cause a few hiccups but that is all it is, hiccups.The very rich, nobility, the huge industrial complexes will speak with any form of government and tell them what they should do to protect their own wealth, or else.