Missing from Trump's grand Navy plan - skilled workers to build the fleet

[snoop1130]

Missing from Trump's grand Navy plan - skilled workers to build the fleet

By Mike Stone

 

 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump says he wants to build dozens of new warships in one of the biggest peace-time expansions of the U.S. Navy. But interviews with ship-builders, unions and a review of public and internal documents show major obstacles to that plan.

 

The initiative could cost nearly $700 billion in government funding, take 30 years to complete and require hiring tens of thousands of skilled shipyard workers - many of whom don't exist yet because they still need to be hired and trained, according to the interviews and the documents reviewed.

 

Trump has vowed a huge build-up of the U.S. military to project American power in the face of an emboldened China and Russia. That includes expanding the Navy to 350 warships from 275 today. He has provided no specifics, including how soon he wants the larger fleet.

 

(For graphics on projected strength of U.S. Navy, shipyard employment see: http://tmsnrt.rs/2n3vOr0)

 

The Navy has given Defense Secretary Jim Mattis a report that explores how the country's industrial base could support higher ship production, Admiral Bill Moran, the vice chief of Naval Operations with oversight of the Navy’s shipbuilding outlook, told Reuters.

 

He declined to give further details. But those interviewed for this story say there are clearly two big issues - there are not enough skilled workers in the market, from electricians to welders, and after years of historically low production, shipyards and their suppliers, including nuclear fuel producers, will struggle to ramp up for years.

 

To be sure, the first, and biggest, hurdle for Trump to overcome is to persuade a cost-conscious Congress to fund the military buildup.

 

The White House declined to comment. A Navy spokeswoman said increases being considered beyond the current shipbuilding plan would require “sufficient time” to allow companies to ramp up capacity.

 

The two largest U.S. shipbuilders, General Dynamics Corp <GD.N> and Huntington Ingalls Industries Inc <HII.N>, told Reuters they are planning to hire a total of 6,000 workers in 2017 just to meet current orders, such as the Columbia class ballistic missile submarine.

 

General Dynamics hopes to hire 2,000 workers at Electric Boat this year. Currently projected order levels would already require the shipyard to grow from less than 15,000 workers, to nearly 20,000 by the early 2030s, company documents reviewed by Reuters show.

 

Huntington Ingalls, the largest U.S. military shipbuilder, plans to hire 3,000 at its Newport News shipyard in Norfolk, Virginia, and another 1,000 at the Ingalls shipyard in Mississippi this year to fulfill current orders, spokeswoman Beci Brenton said.

 

Companies say they are eager to work with Trump to build his bigger Navy. But expanding hiring, for now, is difficult to do until they receive new orders, officials say.

"It’s hard to look beyond" current orders, Brenton said.

 

Smaller shipbuilders and suppliers are also cautious.

 

"You can’t hire people to do nothing," said Jill Mackie, spokeswoman for Portland, Oregon-based Vigor Industrial LLC, which makes combat craft for the Navy’s Special Warfare units. "Until funding is there ... you can’t bring on more workers."

 

SCALING UP WORKFORCE

 

Because companies won't hire excess workers in advance, they will have a huge challenge in expanding their workforces rapidly if a shipbuilding boom materializes, said Bryan Clark, who led strategic planning for the Navy as special assistant to the chief of Naval Operations until 2013.

 

Union and shipyard officials say finding skilled labour just for the work they already have is challenging. Demand for pipeline welders is so strong that some can make as much as $300,000 per year, including overtime and benefits, said Danny Hendrix, the business manager at Pipeliners Local 798, a union representing 6,500 metal workers in 42 states.

 

Much of the work at the submarine yards also requires a security clearance that many can’t get, said Jimmy Hart, president of the Metal Trades Department at the AFL-CIO union, which represents 100,000 boilermakers, machinists, and pipefitters, among others.

 

To help grow a larger labor force from the ground up, General Dynamics' Electric Boat has partnered with seven high schools and trade schools in Connecticut and Rhode Island to develop a curriculum to train a next generation of welders and engineers.

 

“It has historically taken five years to get someone proficient in shipbuilding," said Maura Dunn, vice president of human resources at Electric Boat.

 

It can take as many as seven years to train a welder skilled enough to make the most complex type of welds, radiographic structural welds needed on a nuclear-powered submarine, said Will Lennon, vice president of the shipyard's Columbia Class submarine program.

 

The Navy envisioned by Trump could create more than 50,000 jobs, the Shipbuilders Council of America, a trade group representing U.S. shipbuilders, repairers and suppliers, told Reuters.

 

The U.S. shipbuilding and repairing industry employed nearly 100,000 in 2016, Labor Department statistics show. The industry had as many as 176,000 workers at the height of the Cold War in the early 1980s as the United States built up a fleet of nearly 600 warships by the end of that decade.

 

SUBMARINE CRUNCH

 

Apart from the labor shortage, there are also serious capacity and supply chain issues that would be severely strained by any plan to expand the Navy, especially its submarine fleet.

 

Expanding the Navy to 350 ships is not as simple as just adding 75 ships. Many ships in the current 275-vessel fleet need to be replaced, which means the Navy would have to buy 321 ships between now and 2046 to reach Trump's goal, the Congressional Budget Office said in a report in February.

 

The shipyards that make nuclear submarines - General Dynamics' Electric Boat in Groton, Connecticut, and Huntington's Newport News - produced as many as seven submarines per year between them in the early 1980s. But for more than a decade now, the yards have not built more than two per year.

 

The nuclear-powered Virginia class and Columbia class submarines are among the largest and most complex vessels to build. The first Columbia submarine, which is set to begin construction in 2021, will take seven years to build, and two to three additional years to test.

 

Retooling the long-dormant shipyard space will take several years and significant capital investments, but a bigger problem is expanding the supply chain, said Clark, the former strategist for the Navy and now a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments.

 

Makers of submarine components such as reactor cores, big castings, and forgers of propellers and shafts would need five years to double production, said a congressional official with knowledge of the Navy’s long-term planning.

 

"We have been sizing the industrial base for two submarines a year. You can’t then just throw one or two more on top of that and say, 'Oh here, dial the switch and produce four reactor cores a year instead of two.' You just can't," the official said.

 

In his first budget proposal to Congress on Thursday, Trump proposed boosting defence spending by $54 billion for the fiscal 2018 year – a 10 percent increase from last year. He is also seeking $30 billion for the Defense Department in a supplemental budget for fiscal 2017, of which at least $433 million is earmarked for military shipbuilding.

 

A 350-ship Navy would cost $690 billion over the 30-year period, or $23 billion per year - 60 percent more than the average funding the Navy has received for shipbuilding in the past three decades, the Congressional Budget Office said.

 

Senator John McCain, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, who will have a major say in approving the defence budget, said in a statement to Reuters that he supported Trump's vision to increase the size of the Navy to deter adversaries.

 

"However, this is not a blank check," he said.

 

(Additional reporting by Luciana Lopez in New York, Editing by Soyoung Kim and Ross Colvin)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-3-17

[Credo]

How ironic.   He may have to bring in skilled labor to work in the shipyards, or he might even have to have the ships built in China!

[CharlieH]

Troll comment removed.

[Basil B]

BAE Systems Maritime???

[darksidedog]

You can't blame Trump for the lack of skilled workers to build ships, that is just the way the industry has declined.

But you would think he would have found out about it, before anouncing he was going to build so many new ones.

[IMA_FARANG]

All U.S. industries run on profit motive economics.

if a profit can be made a corporation will undertake the work

But that depends on many factors, and frankly I doubt that in today's U.S. economy there is such a skilled U.S. workforce available.

Americans don't want to work hard these days. they have become fat and lazy.

I suspect the will to undertake such a large construction project would need to bring many non-American workers into the U.S. which  Donald Trump and his idiot supporters would not approve of.

Of course, WW2 showed what the U.S can do if they really go all out.

After the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941 a sleeping U.S. woke up and rebuilt the Navy that won  us WW2.

So do we need another war to do such a thing again?

I hope not.

Just my opinion.

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by IMA_FARANG
Added a coment

[ronrat]

And then they have to man them. Todays  kids won't like being on a submarine with no internet,snapchat etc

[ExpatOilWorker]

27 minutes ago, IMA_FARANG said:

All U.S. industries run on profit motive economics.

if a profit can be made a corporation will undertake the work

But that depends on many factors, and frankly I doubt that in today's U.S. economy there is such a skilled U.S. workforce available.

Americans don't want to work hard these days. they have become fat and lazy.

I suspect the will to undertake such a large construction project would need to bring many non-American workers into the U.S. which  Donald Trump and his idiot supporters would not approve of.

Of course, WW2 showed what the U.S can do if they really go all out.

After the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941 a sleeping U.S. woke up and rebuilt the Navy that won  us WW2.

So do we need another war to do such a thing again?

I hope not.

Just my opinion.

 

 

 

 

You vastly underestimate how strong the American workforce is. I have seen plenty of very hard working and skilled people in the oil industry.

[Scott]

22 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

 

You vastly underestimate how strong the American workforce is. I have seen plenty of very hard working and skilled people in the oil industry.

I would have to agree with you and I would have to disagree with the characterization of another poster of American's being fat and lazy.   

 

There are a number of problems, not the least of which is the profit margin and the fact that businesses can't keep employees on the payroll for long with nothing to do.   The other problem is that many of the skilled workers would need to relocate to the area and the cost of relocation is not cheap.   Best of luck if you are unemployed or underemployed and have to move to a new city, put a deposit on an apartment and get situated.   I recently had a Thai friend who lives in the US take a job in another city and the cost to get settled was quite high.   I was surprised at how much money it took -- and credit checks for everything, including the hooking up of utilities.

 

For many younger people the huge cost of education has meant that those striving for a university education have had to work and go to school, often part-time school.   They have spent a great deal of time with no discernible skills.   Those going the vocational route have few job opportunities, so there is a gap in what is immediately available and who can do it.

[Srikcir]

16 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

expanding the Navy to 350 warships from 275 today.

This is political showmanship.

If Trump consulted with his Secretary of Defense and Under Secretary of the Navy he'd find that the navy has a different priority - fix its existing fleet!

https://www.navytimes.com/articles/trump-wants-a-bigger-navy-but-the-navy-wants-its-fleet-fixed-first

The Navy’s overall score for the 2016 Index of US Military Strength is “marginal,” the same as 2015.

http://index.heritage.org/military/2016/assessments/us-military-power/us-navy/

 

The addition of 85 more naval ships over the next 30 years is the least of the Navy's current concerns. And doesn't even begin to address the issue of recruitment and training for additional officers and seamen. 

 

 

 

 

[kowpot]

2 hours ago, IMA_FARANG said:

All U.S. industries run on profit motive economics.

if a profit can be made a corporation will undertake the work

But that depends on many factors, and frankly I doubt that in today's U.S. economy there is such a skilled U.S. workforce available.

Americans don't want to work hard these days. they have become fat and lazy.

I suspect the will to undertake such a large construction project would need to bring many non-American workers into the U.S. which  Donald Trump and his idiot supporters would not approve of.

Of course, WW2 showed what the U.S can do if they really go all out.

After the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941 a sleeping U.S. woke up and rebuilt the Navy that won  us WW2.

So do we need another war to do such a thing again?

I hope not.

Just my opinion.

 

 

 

Did you not read the part about workers having to pass a security clearance?  I don't think most foreign workers would qualify.  Why would someone not want to learn welding nowadays?  $300,000 a yr. is a good chunk of change.

[boomerangutang]

               All great empires have their rise and their ultimate fall.  Some fall with a bang, others (like the Brits) with a whimper.

 

             I knew the US empire would fall, but didn't think it would happen as soon as 2025/2035.  If so, it would have lasted fewer years than the Roman, Mayan or Inca empires.  All Trump is doing, directly or indirectly, is hastening the fall of the US empire.  That doesn't automatically mean another country will take its place.  The Chinese think they're the natural succeeders, but it's entirely possible for there to be no one overly-dominant national power.  It happened during the Dark Ages (in relation to Europe), and at other times historically.

 

             Trump should study history and realize that making a fighting force iron-clad (large fighting ships, etc) is not a guarantee of military dominance.   Indeed, the F-22 Raptor, considered the best fighter jet in history, is flawed (for example, it can't fly within 20 miles of a lightning storm).  More importantly, manned jets will soon be a remnant of the past - they'll go the way of the bi-plane.

 

                  The most modern hyper-expensive naval vessel can be incapacitated by one rogue sailor.  Just one skilled nefarious person can cripple the mightiest carrier from within.  

[Kabula]

Is this fake news?

 

America was suffering financially when World War II broke out and just look at the massive number of ships, planes, tanks, Jeeps, uniforms and weapons were manufactured within a year!

 

And, much of the manufacturing was done by unskilled women that has been well documented over the years.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Kabula

[scorecard]

50 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

               All great empires have their rise and their ultimate fall.  Some fall with a bang, others (like the Brits) with a whimper.

 

             I knew the US empire would fall, but didn't think it would happen as soon as 2025/2035.  If so, it would have lasted fewer years than the Roman, Mayan or Inca empires.  All Trump is doing, directly or indirectly, is hastening the fall of the US empire.  That doesn't automatically mean another country will take its place.  The Chinese think they're the natural succeeders, but it's entirely possible for there to be no one overly-dominant national power.  It happened during the Dark Ages (in relation to Europe), and at other times historically.

 

             Trump should study history and realize that making a fighting force iron-clad (large fighting ships, etc) is not a guarantee of military dominance.   Indeed, the F-22 Raptor, considered the best fighter jet in history, is flawed (for example, it can't fly within 20 miles of a lightning storm).  More importantly, manned jets will soon be a remnant of the past - they'll go the way of the bi-plane.

 

                  The most modern hyper-expensive naval vessel can be incapacitated by one rogue sailor.  Just one skilled nefarious person can cripple the mightiest carrier from within.  

 

 

In fact, time moves on, lots of new very advanced technology etc.

 

So are ships, even lots of them, the best protection from other countries which have all sorts of hi-tech stuff which is getting better by the day / going into new previously unthought of areas of hi-tech / space warfare, etc etc?  

[mike324]

You want skill labor yet you want to cut education funding?

[yardrunner]

4 hours ago, darksidedog said:

You can't blame Trump for the lack of skilled workers to build ships, that is just the way the industry has declined.

But you would think he would have found out about it, before anouncing he was going to build so many new ones.

but he nearly always opens his mouth without engaging his brain

[Grubster]

3 hours ago, IMA_FARANG said:

All U.S. industries run on profit motive economics.

if a profit can be made a corporation will undertake the work

But that depends on many factors, and frankly I doubt that in today's U.S. economy there is such a skilled U.S. workforce available.

Americans don't want to work hard these days. they have become fat and lazy.

I suspect the will to undertake such a large construction project would need to bring many non-American workers into the U.S. which  Donald Trump and his idiot supporters would not approve of.

Of course, WW2 showed what the U.S can do if they really go all out.

After the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941 a sleeping U.S. woke up and rebuilt the Navy that won  us WW2.

So do we need another war to do such a thing again?

I hope not.

Just my opinion.

 

 

 

I recently retired from a life of construction, working on retrofits in many factories, I failed to see these lazy people you talk about outside of those working for government. Bringing in foreign workers would be a bid to lower wages only. Five to seven years to train the workers? Who are they trying to kid here.  It does seem that our women learned a little faster than that for WW2.

[Grubster]

19 minutes ago, Kabula said:

Is this fake news?

 

America was suffering financially when World War II broke out and just look at the massive number of ships, planes, tanks, Jeeps, uniforms and weapons were manufactured within a year!

Its amazing what can happen when those hoarding all the wealth decide to buck up isn't it.

[metisdead]

An offensive post has been removed. 

[rice555]

16 hours ago, ronrat said:

And then they have to man them. Todays  kids won't like being on a submarine with no internet,snapchat etc

 

13 hours ago, mike324 said:

You want skill labor yet you want to cut education funding?

Most of the skilled labor for this type of industry comes from x-malitary  and apprentice programs which is full time work and part time JC.   I did it in the airlines as a mechanic. Colleges don't teach this, only how to be a whining protestor, not how to turn a wrench and how to weld.

rice555

[NumbNut]

3 hours ago, kowpot said:

Did you not read the part about workers having to pass a security clearance?  I don't think most foreign workers would qualify.  Why would someone not want to learn welding nowadays?  $300,000 a yr. is a good chunk of change.

 

$300,000 a year for welding? Really? SIGN ME UP!!!

 

You must have accidentally added an extra zero on the end there, surely!

 

 

[FritsSikkink]

14 minutes ago, NumbNut said:

 

$300,000 a year for welding? Really? SIGN ME UP!!!

 

You must have accidentally added an extra zero on the end there, surely!

 

 

Just have to make a lot of hours, lol     https://honeywell.taleo.net/careersection/9/jobdetail.ftl?lang=en&job=2345149&src=JB-12349

[NumbNut]

10 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Just have to make a lot of hours, lol     https://honeywell.taleo.net/careersection/9/jobdetail.ftl?lang=en&job=2345149&src=JB-12349

 

Taken from your link above Frits:-

 

Job Description 

Welder Requisition ID : 00340703     Description   Welder – Req #340703   Starting Wage - $21.35

 

That's a shocking rate for an experienced tradesman! Good welders in any capital city in Australia can make double that, exchange rates notwithstanding.

 

https://www.seek.com.au/welder-jobs

 

No wonder no one wants to be on the tools in the US...

Edited March 18, 2017 by NumbNut

[tandor]

18 hours ago, Credo said:

How ironic.   He may have to bring in skilled labor to work in the shipyards, or he might even have to have the ships built in China!

 

..may as well give up now.

[Briggsy]

Vladmir is willing to lend a hand.

[mike324]

11 hours ago, rice555 said:

 

Most of the skilled labor for this type of industry comes from x-malitary  and apprentice programs which is full time work and part time JC. I did it in the airlines as a mechanic. Colleges don't teach this, only how to be a whining protestor, not how to turn a wrench and how to weld.

rice555

 

Why would you think that engineers are not required? Those skilled labors are normally taught in community and technical college, Trumps propose cuts in education funding will be effecting those students the most.

[ilostmypassword]

 

From Rice555:

Most of the skilled labor for this type of industry comes from x-malitary 

and apprentice programs which is full time work and part time JC.

I did it in the airlines as a mechanic. Colleges don't teach this, only how

to be a whining protestor, not how to turn a wrench and how to weld.

rice555

25 minutes ago, mike324 said:

 

Why would you think that engineers are not required? Those skilled labors are normally taught in community and technical college, Trumps propose cuts in education funding will be effecting those students the most.

I think you mean whining protesting engineers and screaming crybaby architects.

[kowpot]

1 hour ago, NumbNut said:

 

$300,000 a year for welding? Really? SIGN ME UP!!!

 

You must have accidentally added an extra zero on the end there, surely!

 

 

I took it from the story. I think it is rather excessive myself. But, I know as a fact it is more than $30,000.  So who knows?

 

Union and shipyard officials say finding skilled labour just for the work they already have is challenging. Demand for pipeline welders is so strong that some can make as much as $300,000 per year, including overtime and benefits, said Danny Hendrix, the business manager at Pipeliners Local 798, a union representing 6,500 metal workers in 42 states.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by kowpot

[Kabula]

6 hours ago, Grubster said:

Its amazing what can happen when those hoarding all the wealth decide to buck up isn't it.

What is amazing is when Americans get on the same page, pull together, set goals and make it all happen with unskilled labor.  Most of the men were on the battlefield while the women were working in the factories and even delivering planes and finished product.  Of course your comment was spot on. No money, no honey, no manufacturing!

[williet98248]

11 hours ago, IMA_FARANG said:

All U.S. industries run on profit motive economics.

if a profit can be made a corporation will undertake the work

But that depends on many factors, and frankly I doubt that in today's U.S. economy there is such a skilled U.S. workforce available.

Americans don't want to work hard these days. they have become fat and lazy.

I suspect the will to undertake such a large construction project would need to bring many non-American workers into the U.S. which  Donald Trump and his idiot supporters would not approve of.

Of course, WW2 showed what the U.S can do if they really go all out.

After the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941 a sleeping U.S. woke up and rebuilt the Navy that won  us WW2.

So do we need another war to do such a thing again?

I hope not.

Just my opinion.

 

 

 

Another thing is that young people are pushed to go to college and get Bachelor's degree instead of going into the trades.  Where they will go into debt and get a degree that qualifies them to live in their parent's basement.  Whereas a graduate of a two year welding school will earn 60,000 a year out of the box and with further training can just about write their own ticket.  Have a friend who works as a skilled welder six months and lives in Thailand for the other six months.  Male friend in his 40s enrolled in a two year dental hygienist/assistant course at a trade school; was recruited out of the school into a $100,000 a year job working 36 hours a week.  Forget the degree.  Get a trade!