The myth of melting ice and rising seas

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, F4UCorsair said:

Man made emissions are about 3% of the total emissions, the other 97% coming from natural sources.

 

If anybody thinks that be reducing man made emissions to zero overnight, and have the world's population living in the cold and dark, will make a difference, they are egotistical and delusional.  Trying to make a change is like pi$$ing into a 40 knot northerly.

 

The climate has always changed, but man is not contributing to a degree that will make a difference.   Those contending otherwise will go down as perpetrating the greatest lie of our time, if not all time. 

Even if 3% is correct (you don't provide a source for this information), if we add 3% a year extra CO2 to the environment and simultaneously cut down forests that remove CO2 from the atmosphere, the earth will experience an increase in CO2 concentrations that will become dangerously high over the decades, which is what measurements show is happening.

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You are within your right to debate what I have actually said. What you have no right to do is to tell untruths about what I believe, and have said on this thread. You are fond of telling other posters to provide evidence of what they said and you should do the same to support your erroneous statement, but you will not be able to as I never said that.

I have always agreed that temperatures and CO2 concentrations are rising.

 

Ok, so you agree temperatures and CO2 levels are rising, but not that sea levels are rising, in spite of the evidence:

 

  "Since 1880, the ocean began to rise briskly, climbing a total of 210 mm (8.3 in) through 2009 causing extensive erosion worldwide and costing billions.^[17]

Sea level rose by 6 cm during the 19th century and 19 cm in the 20th century."   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_level_rise 

 

" Global sea level has been rising over the past century, and the rate has increased in recent decades. In 2014, global sea level was 2.6 inches above the 1993 average—the highest annual average in the satellite record (1993-present). Sea level continues to rise at a rate of about one-eighth of an inch per year. "  https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/sealevel.html 

 

 

 

https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/sea-level/

 

I could continue, there is a lot more sources with evidence. 

 

Will you now state that you believe that sea levels are rising but it's not a problem, or maybe not a problem for you personally?

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

Ok, so you agree temperatures and CO2 levels are rising, but not that sea levels are rising, in spite of the evidence:

 

  "Since 1880, the ocean began to rise briskly, climbing a total of 210 mm (8.3 in) through 2009 causing extensive erosion worldwide and costing billions.^[17]

Sea level rose by 6 cm during the 19th century and 19 cm in the 20th century."   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_level_rise 

 

" Global sea level has been rising over the past century, and the rate has increased in recent decades. In 2014, global sea level was 2.6 inches above the 1993 average—the highest annual average in the satellite record (1993-present). Sea level continues to rise at a rate of about one-eighth of an inch per year. "  https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/sealevel.html 

 

 

 

https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/sea-level/

 

I could continue, there is a lot more sources with evidence. 

 

Will you now state that you believe that sea levels are rising but it's not a problem, or maybe not a problem for you personally?

I would believe it if I could see the evidence of that with my own eyes and that's a simple enough thing, but when sea levels in two different countries thousands of miles apart show no sign of being higher in decades, I am naturally sceptical.

When a nice young Thai lady says I am a "hansum" man, I want to believe it, but the evidence in a mirror tells me it's not so.

BTW, I agree that sea level in various parts of the world is higher than in others- it's called "the tide".

 

Anyway, 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

[heybruce]

28 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I would believe it if I could see the evidence of that with my own eyes and that's a simple enough thing, but when sea levels in two different countries thousands of miles apart show no sign of being higher in decades, I am naturally sceptical.

When a nice young Thai lady says I am a "hansum" man, I want to believe it, but the evidence in a mirror tells me it's not so.

BTW, I agree that sea level in various parts of the world is higher than in others- it's called "the tide".

 

Anyway, 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

Do you believe the earth isn't flat, because it doesn't look like a ball from anywhere you stand?

 

As I posted earlier, you believe the anecdotal evidence and ignore empirical evidence collected by credible scientific agencies around the world.  There's no hope for you.  I suggest you go out an buy lots of lottery tickets, there's anecdotal evidence that will make you rich.

[ilostmypassword]

25 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Do you believe the earth isn't flat, because it doesn't look like a ball from anywhere you stand?

 

As I posted earlier, you believe the anecdotal evidence and ignore empirical evidence collected by credible scientific agencies around the world.  There's no hope for you.  I suggest you go out an buy lots of lottery tickets, there's anecdotal evidence that will make you rich.

He's trolling. Ignore him.

[thaibeachlovers]

27 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Do you believe the earth isn't flat, because it doesn't look like a ball from anywhere you stand?

 

 

On any beach anywhere in the world, the horizon is curved, indicating the world is round.

[craigt3365]

5 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

He's trolling. Ignore him.

Post of the month!

[heybruce]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

On any beach anywhere in the world, the horizon is curved, indicating the world is round.

That could be explained by stating the earth is a flat disk, but let's move on.  Maybe we can get you into the enlightenment.

 

Do you believe the earth orbits around the sun?  After all, it looks like the sun is orbiting the earth, but those know-it-all scientists tell us it's the other way around.   Do you believe your eyes or the science?

[canuckamuck]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

If humans can't manage 20 cm's of sea level rise in 150 years, they deserve to be wiped out.

In some instances 8 inches can be impressive, but not when you are talking oceans.

Edited November 24, 2017 by canuckamuck

[uncleeagle]

3 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

It's interesting; the % of deniers who post on the GW topics in T.Visa.

 

In the general public, I'd guess that believers-in-science and believers-in-GW are up in the 90 percentile range.   Yet, on T.Visa, it seems we're in the 50's or 60's %.

 

My personal theory of why:  Most posters on T.Visa, in order to be able to reside comfortably in Thailand, probably have retirement revenue.  Along with that, they're mostly over 40.  In order to get retirement payments from a home country, a person will more likely have had a 'straight' job (steady employment with benefits).   Many people with 'straight jobs' including benefits tend to be conservative (who tend to side with fossil fuel industry propaganda).  Perhaps I'm inserting too many assumptions into this missive, but.....

 

Another factor is:  deniers get a kick out of voicing their contrarianism.  Deniers will say, out of one side of their mouths, that there is no warming.  Then, a day later, they will admit there's warming, but insist it cannot be human-affected ("humans are too small and insignificant on a world scale").  They'll claim that ice levels are increasing in the Arctic, and.....  a day later they'll say the scientific evidence for decreased glacier sizes is a hoax designed to make crooked scientists rich from grant money.   They'll say GW is a hoax because of carbon taxes, and so on, ad nauseum.    

 

I hope deniers aren't teaching at schools - and influencing youngsters.  

 

 

Its not just on Thai visa. Ive met a lot of conspiracy theory types in Thailand, in real life. And Ive heard it all...the earth is flat, there was no moon landing, HAARP, global warming is a hoax, the rothschilds etc etc.

 

What they usually have in common is a relatively poor education combined with a huge level of confidence in their own abilities.

 

Its this mix of ignorance with confidence that makes a lot of these people think they have special knowledge that sets them apart from and above the rest. They regard the rest as sheep who believe whatever they are told by the government. The great irony missed by these people is that they themselves all say the same things they get from the same websites and they all repeat what they have read or been told parrot fashion.

 

In general id say they havent necessarily had straight jobs, they are rarely qualified to do jobs of a demanding nature. Many of the ones ive spoken to had been manual workers or very low level paper work jobs.

 

Its is precisely their lack of education and lack of critical thinking skills that make them able to hold views that are quite often illogical and nonsensical. At the same time many also have a chip on their shoulders about their lack of success, especially of an intellectual nature, and they feel they are getting one up on the rest by holding their supposedly special views. 

 

There are seeming exceptions to this generalisation of the conspiracy theory types ive encountered in Thailand, but if i have to generalise in my experience its as i said. Most arent highlying CEOs, mot arent wealthy celebrities, most are just remarkably unsuccessful people.

 

Why are there so many in Thailand....because Thailand attracts a lot of those kinds of people, it always has done.

 

[craigt3365]

6 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

If humans can't manage 20 cm's of sea level rise in 150 years, they deserve to be wiped out.

In some instances 8 inches can be impressive, but not when you are talking oceans.

If you were one of those being hurt by this rise, you'd be singing a different tune.

 

8 inches is enough to have devastating effects for many.

[heybruce]

14 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

If humans can't manage 20 cm's of sea level rise in 150 years, they deserve to be wiped out.

In some instances 8 inches can be impressive, but not when you are talking oceans.

Some of the most productive farmlands on earth are on river delta's that are just barely above sea level.  The Mekong and Irrawaddy are two examples.  Only a small rise in sea level can lead to salt water incursion into the land and ground water, destroying the farming.

 

There's also the habit people have of building near the coast on very low land, putting entire cities (Miami, Houston, Bangkok, etc.) at risk from small rises in sea level.  And the rate of sea level rising is increasing.

[ilostmypassword]

10 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

If you were one of those being hurt by this rise, you'd be singing a different tune.

 

8 inches is enough to have devastating effects for many.

And of course that rise is magnified during storms.

New research highlights flood risks from sea-level rise

Recent scientific studies on the impacts of sea-level rise can help cities and businesses in coastal areas strengthen their climate resilience planning.

Coastal flooding is expected to be a particularly costly climate impact. As the seas rise, U.S. cities from Miami to Atlantic City, New Jersey, now routinely deal with tidal flooding, also called nuisance flooding or sunny day flooding. But higher sea levels can also magnify flooding from more rare major storms like hurricanes.

https://www.c2es.org/2017/07/new-research-highlights-flood-risks-from-sea-level-rise/

[Just Weird]

On 3/21/2017 at 10:18 AM, shows said:

Who is Sam Khoury? What are his qualifications? And why would The Nation print such nonsense?

Who are you and what are your qualifications that allow you to dismiss his accurate report as "such nonsense"?  

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, uncleeagle said:

Its not just on Thai visa. Ive met a lot of conspiracy theory types in Thailand, in real life. And Ive heard it all...the earth is flat, there was no moon landing, HAARP, global warming is a hoax, the rothschilds etc etc.

I support Flat Earth theory. I don't believe in it, like I think is the case of 90% the people, who supports the theory. 

For me it's the silliest, thus funniest conspiracy theory available at the moment. 

 

There is also more serious part of this hobby. If a relatively smart sounding persons support something like Flat Earth, it causes reactions. Sometimes these are laughter, wonders, sometimes anger etc. The main point, behind any reaction, there was a thought process by the person who reacted.

 

When the thought or reaction was "You are nuts to believe in such nonsense!", it's time to ask questions about the person's own religious views / beliefs. 

 

Always try to see the motives beyond what people say. It's sometimes 'complicated' :) 

 

When it comes to the GW discussions. I have always been a GW sceptic, like I'm a sceptic in any other field of sciences. However I'm more sceptic due the fact that GW science / discussion has become politicized. In my books, the good scientists must hold the facts and findings, even if those are against them. 

While we are 99% certain that the Earth's warming is caused by human activity, we should not stop asking question, doubt the findings and look for alternative reasons, which contribute to the warming. This however doesn't mean that we should not try to improve our planet's health. 

I personally support green energy because I want to keep our planet's air clean. Our waters have already been messed, which hopefully could be reversed in the future. That's mainly because I want to keep my skepticism alive.

Maybe if GW would be sold as "Keep our Planet clean", instead of "We are all going to die soon", there would not be people to oppose GW? Furthermore start talking about solutions how to keep our living environments clean. Stop yelling, we have a problem, but start finding and talking about solutions. I think finding solutions is far more interesting than just complaining in what mess we are in. Hope overcomes fear in long run. 

 

[pkspeaker]

..and again... in the last 5 years sea levels have actually dropped a few MMs.. Here's why: natural cycles are striking again:

https://www.vencoreweather.com/blog/2017/11/22/1015-am-impressive-cold-continues-on-greenland-with-high-snowice-buildup-significant-growth-in-the-petermann-glacier-during-the-last-five-years

 

This thread has been running for so long.. you can see the updated Greenland Data from where it was on appox page 8 when i was talking about it months ago..rebound continues..

 

..btw since you guys are also talking about alternative technology.. I think electric cars are great, but battery powered cars suk because the charging is always going to be a pain in the ass.. why not put ALL the subsidies to hydrogen fuel cell electric cars since its an electric car that can be refueled in minutes..instead they subsidize a crappier tech that no one wants.. typical goverment meddling in freeenterprise.. they could have just put the money into the govt paying to get hydrogen fuel at many gas stations all over the country (infrastructure spending-what govt is suppoed to do). A hydrogen car has even greater range than an ICE car.. they could have done that and people would start buying the alt cars because they actually want them instead of trying to cram this battery powered crap down everyones throat..

Edited November 24, 2017 by pkspeaker

[heybruce]

15 minutes ago, pkspeaker said:

..and again... in the last 5 years sea levels have actually dropped a few MMs.. Here's why: natural cycles are striking again:

https://www.vencoreweather.com/blog/2017/11/22/1015-am-impressive-cold-continues-on-greenland-with-high-snowice-buildup-significant-growth-in-the-petermann-glacier-during-the-last-five-years

 

This thread has been running for so long.. you can see the updated Greenland Data from where it was on appox page 8 when i was talking about it months ago..rebound continues..

 

..btw since you guys are also talking about alternative technology.. I think electric cars are great, but battery powered cars suk because the charging is always going to be a pain in the ass.. why not put ALL the subsidies to hydrogen fuel cell electric cars since its an electric car that can be refueled in minutes..instead they subsidize a crappier tech that no one wants.. typical goverment meddling in freeenterprise.. they could have just put the money into the govt paying to get hydrogen fuel at many gas stations all over the country (infrastructure spending-what govt is suppoed to do). A hydrogen car has even greater range than an ICE car.. they could have done that and people would start buying the alt cars because they actually want them instead of trying to cram this battery powered crap down everyones throat..

A largely unknown blog that does not support your claim about sea levels dropping, it just states that one glacier in Greenland is growing.  Not convincing.

[pkspeaker]

Not True.. look at the DMI greenland chart, thats for the whole of greenland... you can get the current sea level chart from noaa..last 5 years no rise.. the one posted above is not fully up to date..

Edited November 24, 2017 by pkspeaker

[canuckamuck]

2 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

If you were one of those being hurt by this rise, you'd be singing a different tune.

 

8 inches is enough to have devastating effects for many.

It's 2.5" in 50 years which is an average adult life span. It's nothing really. How can I say that? Because it already happened, and it was nothing.

[ilostmypassword]

24 minutes ago, pkspeaker said:

..and again... in the last 5 years sea levels have actually dropped a few MMs.. Here's why: natural cycles are striking again:

https://www.vencoreweather.com/blog/2017/11/22/1015-am-impressive-cold-continues-on-greenland-with-high-snowice-buildup-significant-growth-in-the-petermann-glacier-during-the-last-five-years

 

This thread has been running for so long.. you can see the updated Greenland Data from where it was on appox page 8 when i was talking about it months ago..rebound continues..

 

..btw since you guys are also talking about alternative technology.. I think electric cars are great, but battery powered cars suk because the charging is always going to be a pain in the ass.. why not put ALL the subsidies to hydrogen fuel cell electric cars since its an electric car that can be refueled in minutes..instead they subsidize a crappier tech that no one wants.. typical goverment meddling in freeenterprise.. they could have just put the money into the govt paying to get hydrogen fuel at many gas stations all over the country (infrastructure spending-what govt is suppoed to do). A hydrogen car has even greater range than an ICE car.. they could have done that and people would start buying the alt cars because they actually want them instead of trying to cram this battery powered crap down everyones throat..

I'm guessing you haven't been following the news about solid state batteries. Toyota, for one, disagrees with you.

https://cen.acs.org/articles/95/i46/Solid-state-batteries-inch-way.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2017/07/25/ultrafast-charging-solid-state-ev-batteries-around-the-corner-toyota-confirms/#19a52da644bb

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/toyota-wont-share-solid-state-battery-tech-with-partner-mazda/

 

And ther are others;

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/11/17/fisker-aims-unleash-potential-solid-state-batteries-stun-emotion/

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/29/dyson-electric-car-project-industry-experts-2020-engineering-manufacturing-regulatory-hurdles

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2017/03/17/jack-goodenoughs-battery-technologies-keep-getting-better/#65b799c34e62

[ilostmypassword]

2 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

It's 2.5" in 50 years which is an average adult life span. It's nothing really. How can I say that? Because it already happened, and it was nothing.

Tell that to some Pacific islanders.

[pkspeaker]

there is no where on Earth where sea level changes have been an issue in that last 100-200 years.. we here in thailand live, visit many of these islands where we are standing only a few feet above sea levels because the gulf of thailand is so calm and the island tourest destinations like to put the little huts right up near the water line.. places the mainstream media like to show are flooding-this is flooding from other factors, erosion or rain storm.

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, pkspeaker said:

..btw since you guys are also talking about alternative technology.. I think electric cars are great, but battery powered cars suk because the charging is always going to be a pain in the ass.. why not put ALL the subsidies to hydrogen fuel cell electric cars since its an electric car that can be refueled in minutes..instead they subsidize a crappier tech that no one wants.. typical goverment meddling in freeenterprise.. 

This is where you get things wrong, when thinking of the future. 

 

There is already technologies (in development) which allows batteries to be charged in 90 seconds. That's equivalent as a filling the tank with gasoline. 

When I read the article, my first question was "That requires some serious capacitors and what's more important some very thick copper wires to transfer all that energy/amperage to the car battery". 

But the thing with progress of sciences is that we tend to find solutions to these kind of problems. Let it be using superconductors or new types of metal alloys, which can deliver the required power to the battery without heating too much. When we know that batteries are able to absorb energy fast enough, we know the next problem is the delivery system. Meanwhile there will be alternative batteries and energy delivery systems.

Governments, all around the world have responsibility to seek for best solutions to us all. That's why we don't allow governments to run as autocrats, but we keep them in like by having elections.  We don't really want to give that power to the companies, who are generally run by greedy lawyers and businessmen who think only about themselves.

I'm all for the open competition for best solutions. I also think that there has to be rules, like when playing football. One team can't just come to the field and kill the opposition with poison.

Ps. I do like the idea of having hydrogen fuel and hydrogen fuel cells in our everyday life. It's however just one solution, which have to compete against other solutions. Let the best solution win, until we find yet improved solution in the future. 

 

[pkspeaker]

i don't got a link and too busy to find it but I read in passing that those 90 second recharge deals are unreliable technology and they have a tendency to suddenly discharge al the power.. there is not new product from the big car makers on the horizon that offer this type of superfast recharge.. the only option for fast 'recharge' is hydrogen fuel cell..The customer does not want this battery stuf because its crappier than ICE cars which 'recharge' in minutes.

[ilostmypassword]

6 minutes ago, pkspeaker said:

there is no where on Earth where sea level changes have been an issue in that last 100-200 years.. we here in thailand live, visit many of these islands where we are standing only a few feet above sea levels because the gulf of thailand is so calm and the island tourest destinations like to put the little huts right up near the water line.. places the mainstream media like to show are flooding-this is flooding from other factors, erosion or rain storm.

I guess Miami is located on Mars. Which would explain some of the architecture.

Flooding in Miami is no longer news — but it’s certainly newsworthy

The problem was twofold: A heavy downpour, thanks to a dissipating tropical storm, combined with the onset of high tide just after 4 p.m. But, really, the problem was threefold. Those high tides are higher than they used to be because the ocean itself is higher than it used to be.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/08/04/flooding-in-miami-is-no-longer-news-but-its-certainly-newsworthy/?utm_term=.1b06db066ba1

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, pkspeaker said:

i don't got a link and too busy to find it but I read in passing that those 90 second recharge deals are unreliable technology and they have a tendency to suddenly discharge al the power.. there is not new product from the big car makers on the horizon that offer this type of superfast recharge.. the only option for fast 'recharge' is hydrogen fuel cell..The customer does not want this battery stuf because its crappier than ICE cars which 'recharge' in minutes.

Toyota disagrees with you.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-tokyo-toyota-battery/toyota-scrambles-to-ready-game-changer-ev-battery-for-mass-market-idUSKBN1CW27Y

[pkspeaker]

yea and thats the rain..no where on earth will a few inches, spread unevenly over the entire planet.. will ever matter

[uncleeagle]

1 hour ago, oilinki said:

I support Flat Earth theory. I don't believe in it, like I think is the case of 90% the people, who supports the theory. 

For me it's the silliest, thus funniest conspiracy theory available at the moment. 

 

There is also more serious part of this hobby. If a relatively smart sounding persons support something like Flat Earth, it causes reactions. Sometimes these are laughter, wonders, sometimes anger etc. The main point, behind any reaction, there was a thought process by the person who reacted.

 

When the thought or reaction was "You are nuts to believe in such nonsense!", it's time to ask questions about the person's own religious views / beliefs. 

 

Always try to see the motives beyond what people say. It's sometimes 'complicated' :) 

 

When it comes to the GW discussions. I have always been a GW sceptic, like I'm a sceptic in any other field of sciences. However I'm more sceptic due the fact that GW science / discussion has become politicized. In my books, the good scientists must hold the facts and findings, even if those are against them. 

While we are 99% certain that the Earth's warming is caused by human activity, we should not stop asking question, doubt the findings and look for alternative reasons, which contribute to the warming. This however doesn't mean that we should not try to improve our planet's health. 

I personally support green energy because I want to keep our planet's air clean. Our waters have already been messed, which hopefully could be reversed in the future. That's mainly because I want to keep my skepticism alive.

Maybe if GW would be sold as "Keep our Planet clean", instead of "We are all going to die soon", there would not be people to oppose GW? Furthermore start talking about solutions how to keep our living environments clean. Stop yelling, we have a problem, but start finding and talking about solutions. I think finding solutions is far more interesting than just complaining in what mess we are in. Hope overcomes fear in long run. 

 

 

Pretending to believe in flat earth theory because you think peoples reactions are funny is not the same as actually believing in it. If someone has some kind of ulterior morive for saying they believe in it then they arent a real believer. I have spoken to real believers, just as I have spoken to many people who believe climate change is a hoax, HAARP is controlling the weather, the moon landing was faked as we can see from the fluttering flag etc, the rothschilds are behind every move in the financial markets etc etc. There are lots of genuine believers, very rew are smart. I am sure there are real conspiracies, but they arent the ones conspiracy theorists like to bleat about.

[craigt3365]

33 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

It's 2.5" in 50 years which is an average adult life span. It's nothing really. How can I say that? Because it already happened, and it was nothing.

First you say 8 inches, now 2.5. It's 8. And increasing. Which is huge as has been pointed out by others here.

 

https://www.epa.gov/climate-indicators/climate-change-indicators-sea-level

[ilostmypassword]

2 minutes ago, pkspeaker said:

yea and thats the rain..no where on earth will a few inches, spread unevenly over the entire planet.. will ever matter

Not just the rain in this case. The rain and higher tides. Higher tides caused by higher ocean levels. And tell the people who homes get damaged on a more and more frequent basis that it doesn't matter.