Red-shirt leaders probably doomed: Jatuporn

[tomta]

22 minutes ago, tomta said:

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2017 by tomta
Sorry duplicate post

[tominbkk]

5 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

They are just simple sheeple.

Farmers promised 500 baht a day, by red shorts then abandoned by their loyal leaders, thankfully bused back home to their dustbowls by the government.  They had no idea what was going on and didn't care, all they knew was someone was supposed to pay them a per diem which they actually never got.

[Shawn0000]

37 minutes ago, tominbkk said:

Farmers promised 500 baht a day, by red shorts then abandoned by their loyal leaders, thankfully bused back home to their dustbowls by the government.  They had no idea what was going on and didn't care, all they knew was someone was supposed to pay them a per diem which they actually never got.

 

The Yellow Shirts were paying protesters at the airport, at least so the reports made by foreign news channels went, before those people made their way back to their dengue infested swamp.

 

The whole 500 baht thing comes from one speech that Thaksin made, where he actually said, "I am ready to serve you and you don't have to queue for 500 baht" a reference to the elderly support scheme of 500 baht, but used by the Yellow Shirts as their only scrap of evidence that he was paying protesters, from which they went as far as to calculate that he was giving away 300 million baht a day, they were largely ridiculed for that if you read any western papers at the time.  We do know Thaksin gave away some cash to protesters, as he did it on TV, but that is just Thailand, politicians, school directors, anyone with money and power, give away some cash publicly at times, its just the culture.

 

And as for them not knowing what was going on, you're a sad fantasist, thanks to Thaksin they got a 30% increase on the minimum wage, free health care, agricultural loans, access to the internet, better schooling for their children, they saw half their people lifted out of poverty by a much better economy, and they are well aware of this and went to Bangkok mostly of their own accord.

[baboon]

1 hour ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

They are just simple sheeple.

An attitude which perfectly encapsulates why there is so much discontent and animosity out there: It is because of condescending flapdoodle like that. Take a bow.

[Shawn0000]

9 minutes ago, baboon said:

An attitude which perfectly encapsulates why there is so much discontent and animosity out there: It is because of condescending flapdoodle like that. Take a bow.

 

Just a simple fact, half the posters on here are not independent thinkers, that is crystal clear, they just go with the flow, even if the flow is against democracy and in support of a military dictatorship, they still go with it, theyse people are commonly known as sheeple.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Shawn0000

[baboon]

14 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Just a simple fact, half the posters on here are not independent thinkers, that is crystal clear, they just go with the flow, even if the flow is against democracy and in support of a military dictatorship, they still go with it, theyse people are commonly known as sheeple.

Ah, now I see your point. However I feel the reality is far worse - There are a number of people on here who are all for dictatorship, arbitrary laws and human rights violations, just as long as they are sitting nice and cosily and it doesn't bite them personally on the backside...

[candide]

49 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

The Yellow Shirts were paying protesters at the airport, at least so the reports made by foreign news channels went, before those people made their way back to their dengue infested swamp.

 

The whole 500 baht thing comes from one speech that Thaksin made, where he actually said, "I am ready to serve you and you don't have to queue for 500 baht" a reference to the elderly support scheme of 500 baht, but used by the Yellow Shirts as their only scrap of evidence that he was paying protesters, from which they went as far as to calculate that he was giving away 300 million baht a day, they were largely ridiculed for that if you read any western papers at the time.  We do know Thaksin gave away some cash to protesters, as he did it on TV, but that is just Thailand, politicians, school directors, anyone with money and power, give away some cash publicly at times, its just the culture.

 

And as for them not knowing what was going on, you're a sad fantasist, thanks to Thaksin they got a 30% increase on the minimum wage, free health care, agricultural loans, access to the internet, better schooling for their children, they saw half their people lifted out of poverty by a much better economy, and they are well aware of this and went to Bangkok mostly of their own accord.

From what I heard (I did not make a survey) both yellow and red shirt paid protesters. Actually, some people have even been hired two times, first by the PAD and later by the red shirts. :)

[kannot]

On 3/23/2017 at 7:22 AM, Wilsonandson said:

The right idea is love. This is a time of mourning for all Thai people. Stop the hatred and begin the love. Work together, no more divisions, no more blame. Move on Thailand. The hub of South East Asia. Show everyone what a great nation Thailand can be.

That is my opinion as a foreigner living here. What Thai people do is of course up to them. Through all the up and down of politics, protests and coups, it has always been a pleasure to have the opportunity to live in this wonderful country and it's friendly people.

I really dont like the word "love" its  sickening, how about "co-operation"

[robblok]

10 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Fair enough, any reason why you are so taken by the yellows, though?  What is there to "believe in"  in that self serving bunch of corrupt bullies?

Not taken by the yellows, just think they are the less bad option. The fact remains when Thaksin is in power the south and the middle class get screwed to pay for the farmers in the North. I believe that farming should change in Thailand its not economical this way and i feel bad for the people who actually pay tax (middle class) that they get screwed over by the PTP in favor of the farmers. 

 

Now the army at least did something for the middle class but also far from perfect as they overspend and buy expensive military toys. You seem to think i blindly support the army.. but that is not the case.. just dislike the Shins more and see things different then you. 

[robblok]

9 hours ago, baboon said:

Ah, now I see your point. However I feel the reality is far worse - There are a number of people on here who are all for dictatorship, arbitrary laws and human rights violations, just as long as they are sitting nice and cosily and it doesn't bite them personally on the backside...

I would say a lot of people here just want to see the PTP pay for their crimes and there is no other option as the junta to do that. 

 

I would say the other 50% (i can generalize too just like you) would like to see the Shins go free because they think a democracy is just voting someone in and then they can rape the country and break the laws because if the people dont like it they get voted out. (while that is not how a democracy works.

 

But in reality its just that half of the posters select one not working system, while the other half select an other not working system and I guess most of the posters feel that even on the party / system they choose there is much not working and a lot of room for improvement. Its just a matter of opinion who you dislike less and in reality both sides are far from perfect.

[robblok]

8 hours ago, candide said:

From what I heard (I did not make a survey) both yellow and red shirt paid protesters. Actually, some people have even been hired two times, first by the PAD and later by the red shirts. :)

I don't doubt that at all, I am sure there is a core that beliefs in the cause on both sides but an other part comes for the money. Its debatable how many are hired hands. When I spoke with the anti government protesters, as I said had some friends who went there each night after work most were just middle class fed up with paying taxes and not getting anything from the government. (people earning wages who had to pay taxes). Now I won't go so far to say its all.. because I am sure my friends connected with similar people and not as much with other groups. But they were quite pissed off with the rice program and others draining the state from money. Now they are not happy too (and I agree) with the army also overspending, but at least some got back to the middle class who finances most of it. 

[JAG]

13 hours ago, robblok said:

How do you call spreading untruths then ?

 

The voting was the next day.. so these people going there were not going to vote. .. correct or not.

 

These were just red shirts trying to clear a protest area .. in other words protesters against protesters violence against violence. 

 

Not peaceful voters turning up and getting shot at.

 

He could do a job interview at Thrump.. im sure they would have him. 

 

 

I've slept on this one, partly because I had other things to do and partly because I was starting to get annoyed.

 

But...

 

You initially accused a poster of being a "liar" - the perjorative term you used, because he put forward an interpretation of events which did not accord with the one you hold. Now you further accuse him of "spreading untruths"

 

You will recall that some months ago you claimed om this forum that Abhisit had been forced from office as Prime Minister by the Redshirt protests in 2010. A number of us pointed out that was not the case, and that he had left office after being defeated in a general election some time later. You stuck to your version of events notwithstanding. Telling untruths?  You made the same statement in a later thread,  Again several of us pointed out you were wrong, again you persisted in the claim. Perhaps we can therefore say that you had gone beyond "telling untruths" and were telling lies? You were, using the criteria which you apply in this thread, a liar.

 

Why do I raise this? Because you put forward an opinion, one to which you are perfectly entitled. But your opinions are unchallengable, inviolable, and if anyone refutes them you not only argue with them - which again you are perfectly entitled to do - but you accuse those who dare challenge your opinions of denying facts, then of supporting murder, being a terrorist, and now of being a liar.

 

Whilst perhaps your almost biblical certainty over what you see as right and wrong are admirable, you are not Moses descending from Mount Sinai, and your opinions are not the tablets he carried, with the commandments engraved in stone! We all hold our own views on these matters, they are often widely diverging, and we offer them for debate, but that divergence does not make us murderers, terrorists or even liars!

 

Edited March 25, 2017 by JAG

[Shawn0000]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Not taken by the yellows, just think they are the less bad option. The fact remains when Thaksin is in power the south and the middle class get screwed to pay for the farmers in the North. I believe that farming should change in Thailand its not economical this way and i feel bad for the people who actually pay tax (middle class) that they get screwed over by the PTP in favor of the farmers. 

 

Now the army at least did something for the middle class but also far from perfect as they overspend and buy expensive military toys. You seem to think i blindly support the army.. but that is not the case.. just dislike the Shins more and see things different then you. 

 

Clearly very differently to me, as you see spending money on the poorest as a bad thing, you see lifting 20% of the population out of abject poverty as "screwing" the middle class, when the clear reality was he spent money on farmers in the way of agricultural loans, he enabled them to buy tractors, combines, start hydroponic farms, fish farms, all sorts of capital led changes to farming, presumably the very same changes you want to see happen, yet bizarrely you have a problem with the very same party who started that change, instead seeing the others, those content to allow half the population to stagnate as sustenance farmers, as the lesser evil, while they channel their expenditure into shopping malls, a single one consuming more electricity than an entire province of Thailand. 

[baboon]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

I would say a lot of people here just want to see the PTP pay for their crimes and there is no other option as the junta to do that. 

 

I would say the other 50% (i can generalize too just like you) would like to see the Shins go free because they think a democracy is just voting someone in and then they can rape the country and break the laws because if the people dont like it they get voted out. (while that is not how a democracy works.

 

But in reality its just that half of the posters select one not working system, while the other half select an other not working system and I guess most of the posters feel that even on the party / system they choose there is much not working and a lot of room for improvement. Its just a matter of opinion who you dislike less and in reality both sides are far from perfect.

Actually the red v yellow thing was not on my mind, really, when I wrote that. I was just thinking back to the immediate aftermath of the coup and some of the comments:

 

"They can shove democracy somewhere where the sun don't shine!!"

"Democracy, democracy, just a load of hypocracy"

"Democracy is one of the WORST forms of government. It's life is as short as it's end is violent. It ALWAYS devolves into MOBocracy. It is actually an intermediate step towards Communism."

"God has blessed Thailand with a coup"

 

They walk among us...

[MaxLee]

Whiny whiny mercy mercy,.... Jatu-Jatu, it shall be granted with bail after bail after bail, as you will never see a day in jail


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[candide]

6 hours ago, robblok said:

I don't doubt that at all, I am sure there is a core that beliefs in the cause on both sides but an other part comes for the money. Its debatable how many are hired hands. When I spoke with the anti government protesters, as I said had some friends who went there each night after work most were just middle class fed up with paying taxes and not getting anything from the government. (people earning wages who had to pay taxes). Now I won't go so far to say its all.. because I am sure my friends connected with similar people and not as much with other groups. But they were quite pissed off with the rice program and others draining the state from money. Now they are not happy too (and I agree) with the army also overspending, but at least some got back to the middle class who finances most of it. 

My guess is that it's occupation and location based. The people who live in bangkok and protest after work or sometimes take a day off are probably not paid. Those who come from provinces, from south or North,  and leave home, farm, etc... and camp on site,  are probably paid. Those who stay in bangkok and spend all their day in protests all week long are probably paid too.

[Chris Lawrence]

 

a bit like red and yellow. In any event there needs to be a functional opposition otherwise you will live in a dictatorship.

 

Edited March 25, 2017 by Chris Lawrence

[gemguy]

Pretty simple in some respects.

The Military government administration and their political associates... etc. etc, etc.......  are just reminding everyone, who exactly, is really in charge around here and will remain so .

Get it? ...Got it?? ...Good...lol

[gemguy]

7 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Clearly very differently to me, as you see spending money on the poorest as a bad thing, you see lifting 20% of the population out of abject poverty as "screwing" the middle class, when the clear reality was he spent money on farmers in the way of agricultural loans, he enabled them to buy tractors, combines, start hydroponic farms, fish farms, all sorts of capital led changes to farming, presumably the very same changes you want to see happen, yet bizarrely you have a problem with the very same party who started that change, instead seeing the others, those content to allow half the population to stagnate as sustenance farmers, as the lesser evil, while they channel their expenditure into shopping malls, a single one consuming more electricity than an entire province of Thailand. 

Yes...and that, in part, is what happened.

He was the first guy to pay attention to the plight of the farmers and address their concerns in meaningful ways while he did not do it for free rather it was also profitable for him ...but, at least he had a plan that created all the more consumerism and spread around the wealth and the money while the spin off effect that happens when relatively large sums of money are funnelled into areas that are undeveloped always has a great deal of benefits and lots of appreciation.... 

The guy was a crook for sure and did everything and more than all the other crooks, but, for all those people that benefited from his policies they can easily forgive and or ignore the fact that he was also raping and pillaging the country like all the others ...but the difference was, he gave to them more than they had ever received before in the form of money and social services and commercial business opportunities to profit from and the means to conduct business and  generate income and move up and out of dire poverty.

All of that which was greedily withheld by the other people in power for so long and by those in positions of wealth and power and positions to share some of the wealth ....but..... they did not...and that is fact...they did not ...but he did....and hence the admiration and loyalty to the man and his politics.

Similar to a good boss verses bad boss or a "Cheap Charlie", greedy boss verses a generous and benevolent boss type of scenario while working at a large wealthy corporation.  

Who would you be inclined to want to work for or work with???

[Shawn0000]

9 minutes ago, gemguy said:

Yes...and that, in part, is what happened.

He was the first guy to pay attention to the plight of the farmers and address their concerns in meaningful ways while he did not do it for free rather it was also profitable for him ...but, at least he had a plan that created all the more consumerism and spread around the wealth and the money while the spin off effect that happens when relatively large sums of money are funnelled into areas that are undeveloped always has a great deal of benefits and lots of appreciation.... 

The guy was a crook for sure and did everything and more than all the other crooks, but, for all those people that benefited from his policies they can easily forgive and or ignore the fact that he was also raping and pillaging the country like all the others ...but the difference was, he gave to them more than they had ever received before in the form of money and social services and commercial business opportunities to profit from and the means to conduct business and  generate income and move up and out of dire poverty.

All of that which was greedily withheld by the other people in power for so long and by those in positions of wealth and power and positions to share some of the wealth ....but..... they did not...and that is fact...they did not ...but he did....and hence the admiration and loyalty to the man and his politics.

Similar to a good boss verses bad boss or a "Cheap Charlie", greedy boss verses a generous and benevolent boss type of scenario while working at a large wealthy corporation.  

Who would you be inclined to want to work for or work with???

 

He wasn't actually the first in Thai history, he was just the first to remain in office longer than a couple of months, there were some three or four who tried before him back, I think in the 80's, not sure it was a long time ago that I read about that troubled time in Thai politics, I believe the shortest one only lasted a couple of weeks!  Such a threat to the status quo that empowering the poor truly is in Thailand.

[sawadeeken]

17 minutes ago, gemguy said:

Yes...and that, in part, is what happened.

He was the first guy to pay attention to the plight of the farmers and address their concerns in meaningful ways while he did not do it for free rather it was also profitable for him ...but, at least he had a plan that created all the more consumerism and spread around the wealth and the money while the spin off effect that happens when relatively large sums of money are funnelled into areas that are undeveloped always has a great deal of benefits and lots of appreciation.... 

The guy was a crook for sure and did everything and more than all the other crooks, but, for all those people that benefited from his policies they can easily forgive and or ignore the fact that he was also raping and pillaging the country like all the others ...but the difference was, he gave to them more than they had ever received before in the form of money and social services and commercial business opportunities to profit from and the means to conduct business and  generate income and move up and out of dire poverty.

All of that which was greedily withheld by the other people in power for so long and by those in positions of wealth and power and positions to share some of the wealth ....but..... they did not...and that is fact...they did not ...but he did....and hence the admiration and loyalty to the man and his politics.

Similar to a good boss verses bad boss or a "Cheap Charlie", greedy boss verses a generous and benevolent boss type of scenario while working at a large wealthy corporation.  

Who would you be inclined to want to work for or work with???

I hate Taksin (and his clan) very much...... But I think you have 'summed it up' quite well............

Taksin was smart knowing he where he could buy the most votes for the least money, so he made the 'poor/farmers' love him............

As I say..... There just Ain't no 10's (but there Ain't no 0's zeros either)

[robblok]

22 hours ago, JAG said:

I've slept on this one, partly because I had other things to do and partly because I was starting to get annoyed.

 

But...

 

You initially accused a poster of being a "liar" - the perjorative term you used, because he put forward an interpretation of events which did not accord with the one you hold. Now you further accuse him of "spreading untruths"

 

You will recall that some months ago you claimed om this forum that Abhisit had been forced from office as Prime Minister by the Redshirt protests in 2010. A number of us pointed out that was not the case, and that he had left office after being defeated in a general election some time later. You stuck to your version of events notwithstanding. Telling untruths?  You made the same statement in a later thread,  Again several of us pointed out you were wrong, again you persisted in the claim. Perhaps we can therefore say that you had gone beyond "telling untruths" and were telling lies? You were, using the criteria which you apply in this thread, a liar.

 

Why do I raise this? Because you put forward an opinion, one to which you are perfectly entitled. But your opinions are unchallengable, inviolable, and if anyone refutes them you not only argue with them - which again you are perfectly entitled to do - but you accuse those who dare challenge your opinions of denying facts, then of supporting murder, being a terrorist, and now of being a liar.

 

Whilst perhaps your almost biblical certainty over what you see as right and wrong are admirable, you are not Moses descending from Mount Sinai, and your opinions are not the tablets he carried, with the commandments engraved in stone! We all hold our own views on these matters, they are often widely diverging, and we offer them for debate, but that divergence does not make us murderers, terrorists or even liars!

 

JAG,

 

Different thing, I was clearly mistaken and admitted it later. I was not trying to change facts here like he was trying to do. Here we had red shirts (not normal voters like he made it out to be) trying with violence attack anti government protesters to break up their protest site. The way he made it up was that normal voters came in and got shot at.

 

My opinions are as changeable because you have seen me come back to my opinions when I am wrong and admit it. I am never trying to deceive someone on purpose and make things look totally different. I back my opinions up with news articles and facts. You can't deny that I have often admitted I was wrong. I have yet to see him do anything similar. 

 

Yes we clearly see things totally different, and I am happy that more and more things come out painting at least a part of the red shirts as the terrorists they are and shown the black shirts as responsible as the army for the deaths. I also am happy that now its proven that red shirts were black shirts (not witch ones that fired). It shows it was not a one sided thing where the army was responsible but hit and run attacks on the army killing officers and leading to chaos that resulted in all the deaths. 

 

I do get tired of people painting the PTP as democratic while the only democratic thing is getting voted in and after that they are undemocratic. No transparency, not sticking to the rules (voting for others ect) , breaking the rules,  attacking only their enemies with court cases (just like the junta does)  and they have an armed wing. I doubt that is how a democracy works, just that they got voted in does not make them good.

 

I am all for a real democracy.. not one where power needs to shirt before crimes committed by the previous government can be investigated and prosecuted. 

[robblok]

22 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Clearly very differently to me, as you see spending money on the poorest as a bad thing, you see lifting 20% of the population out of abject poverty as "screwing" the middle class, when the clear reality was he spent money on farmers in the way of agricultural loans, he enabled them to buy tractors, combines, start hydroponic farms, fish farms, all sorts of capital led changes to farming, presumably the very same changes you want to see happen, yet bizarrely you have a problem with the very same party who started that change, instead seeing the others, those content to allow half the population to stagnate as sustenance farmers, as the lesser evil, while they channel their expenditure into shopping malls, a single one consuming more electricity than an entire province of Thailand. 

Yes we have a clear differnce in how we see things, the farmers keep protesting and getting money while nothing ever changes. Vietnam and other countries produce far more rice per rai and have lower cost. I don't believe in subsidizing something without meaningful change. I call that wasting money and the rice program was a real waste of money. 

 

What changes Shawn, farming has not been profitable for ages here.. farmers have always come out for handouts. Vietnam and other countries produce more rice per rai. Thai farmers are unwilling to change and all the money pumped in has had zero effect. In fact they are more in debt then before. You can't just give tax money from the middle class to pay for a system that is not working and to pay for farmers that are not willing to learn new things and change.

 

Plenty of examples of farmers that do better, but those are farmers that have embraced change.

 

I have nothing against spending on the poor if it helps, but I can understand the people who finance it (the middle class who are not rich by any means) getting upset that they are constant paying for something that does not work and that because of the PTP they have nothing to tell about how their tax money is spend. 

[chainarong]

As long as U bring it all to everyone's attention all around the world and the junior at the UN would have paid particular attention to this piece , U now have brought this matter to light , so any disappearing or waking up dead in the morning tricks by the Junta and friends wont go un-noticed .....................................................

Edited March 26, 2017 by chainarong