Thai Army under fire over death of conscript

[lvr181]

5 hours ago, rkidlad said:

'some commanders became too angry when punishing subordinates'

 

Clearly these commanders are not practising Buddhism properly. Maybe there's somewhere else they can learn better morals. 

Not in Thailand............ 

 

Common to many Thai males in civilian life also - threaten  and sometimes killing women, stabbing people, beating up young kids etc etc.!

[williamgeorgeallen]

time to get rid of conscription. forcing people into the army is ridiculous. if they need more soldiers they need to pay more to get people to do that job. this kid was forced into the army then killed. army needs to pay big time. they will get away with a few thousand dollars to the family no doubt.

[wow64]

Anyone in the army should know that if you are in poor health try and avoid being beaten to death.

 

I can't believe the army is being blamed for this.

[geriatrickid]

Flying under the radar is the very serious insult and defamation against the medical corps. The excuse that a soldier's poor health was a contributing factor  to the death cannot go unnoticed. A medical officer checks each conscript and signs off on  suitability for service. Claiming that  someone with bad health  died is a major slur. This isn't about a hidden heart defect or a vital organ deficiency, but a claim of general poor health that was missed. According to the army, the screening prevents such an event. Measures are taken to screen out  conscripts who require additional conditioning  before taking on more difficult tasks. Which is it?

 

[lvr181]

8 minutes ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

time to get rid of conscription. forcing people into the army is ridiculous. if they need more soldiers they need to pay more to get people to do that job. this kid was forced into the army then killed. army needs to pay big time. they will get away with a few thousand dollars to the family no doubt.

People in armies have been known to die!

 

Yup a flippant comment, but people in many "service organisations die" - military or otherwise, unfortunately. People die on Thai roads by the 100's due to others carelessness.

 

Nonetheless, my condolences to his family and friends.

[williamgeorgeallen]

1 minute ago, lvr181 said:

People in armies have been known to die!

 

Yup a flippant comment, but people in many "service organisations die" - military or otherwise, unfortunately. People die on Thai roads by the 100's due to others carelessness.

 

Nonetheless, my condolences to his family and friends.

people in many professions die! but in other professions they get to choose to do that job. not so for conscripts.

[Tony125]

4 hours ago, thesetat2013 said:

any other country and the 2 soldiers would be in a jail cell waiting the outcome of the investigation. Their commander would be facing serious repercussions and the possibility of demotion for his lack of leadership and lack of control of his subordinates... even possible criminal charges for his ordering other soldiers to do this... But.. i know... this is thailand and most all of the world just doesnt understand thais and thainess. And a monetary payout to the family is all it takes to satisfy the family. What a shame for the careless disregard for life and shame on the family for accepting a compensation for their sons death when they should be demanding prison sentences for all of those involved.

 

 

You said:any other country and the 2 soldiers would be in a jail cell waiting the outcome of the investigation

Really ? Check the links I posted below

http://www.heraldonline.com/news/local/article12241880.html     USA report

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/12095670/More-than-1-in-20-troop-deaths-happen-in-training.html      UK report

 

The above were basic training deaths but some US Navy Seal recruits who already were in top condition have died from drowning or cold weather exercises.  For you " Pussy Cats" that have never served its not the Boy Scouts  Sorry for the young man who died though as Non Coms need to control themselves beating someone to death is over the top IF that was the case. I have personally seen (in the 70's) recruit hit or pushed to run nothing that would be considered severe just slightly hard persuasion/incentive to keep going.

[fish monger]

So will Thai Visa send the above comments to the powers that be...? No. Because Thai Visa is not part of the solution...Only part of the problem. What is the point of having a community blog if ALL PARTIES are not included...? The military continues to break common natured laws against their own people. They need to be educated and brought to task. They need to realize how the civilized world behaves. Beating people to death is not the way to gain respect or teach military protocol. Those responsible should be brought before a general court marshal and adjudicated. The result should be a life sentence in a stockade, committed to hard labor. If the outside is not forced to hear the opinions of the civilized world, then you may as well close up shop. It does no good to post comments on deaf ears... Voices should be heard, not kept in a vacuum.

[KenKadz]

Unless a person has served as an instructor in a military boot camp?

And knows the entire story of what transpired between trainer, trainee and fellow trainees?

 

Maybe they are all rude, belligerent, hooligans and/or unscrupulous taxi drivers, or gold snatchers, with no concept of discipline or self control, who can not adjust to following orders and contributing to a group effort, and think conscripts have rights? 

Which make it very easy for a commander to loose their control.

 

Maybe Angkhana Neelapaijit, commissioner of the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) should put on a uniform and take a commander's place before they criticize?

[Scouse123]

33 minutes ago, Tony125 said:

You said:any other country and the 2 soldiers would be in a jail cell waiting the outcome of the investigation

Really ? Check the links I posted below

http://www.heraldonline.com/news/local/article12241880.html     USA report

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/12095670/More-than-1-in-20-troop-deaths-happen-in-training.html      UK report

 

The above were basic training deaths but some US Navy Seal recruits who already were in top condition have died from drowning or cold weather exercises.  For you " Pussy Cats" that have never served its not the Boy Scouts  Sorry for the young man who died though as Non Coms need to control themselves beating someone to death is over the top IF that was the case. I have personally seen (in the 70's) recruit hit or pushed to run nothing that would be considered severe just slightly hard persuasion/incentive to keep going.

 

 

I am no ' pussy cat ' and I have served.

 

There are a few differences in your thread to this young man.

 

1. He was a conscript. A young guy going because he was unlucky enough to get the red ball instead of the ' get out of jail free ' black ball.

 

He should reasonably expect, after basic training, to be assigned sweeping roads, cleaning ditches, helping out in floods, and then returning home after his two years to his family home to get on with his life. Many of these boys are sent home once they sign for ' attendance ' after basic training, as long as they forsake their military pay to their seniors, as there is little for them to do.They took that boy and put him in the military. They have a duty of care. By the look of the boy, he was no " Rambo!! " 

 

2. The US navy seals programme is voluntary and for those at the top of their game in the military who wish to become elite members of an extraordinary force. It is THEIR choice to push the limits of their physical capabilities and endurance.

 

3.Did you see they state of this boy in a hospital bed? This is not somebody who has had a clip around the ear to give him  ' incentive ' It was a brutal beating result in death where murder charges should be brought.

 

4. As punishment, I was given scrubbing pans, painting, confined to barracks ( during training ), prevented from shore leave,( when on board ship ) loss of pay, assault courses, compulsory forced marches.

 

These were punishments handed down given by the Royal Navy. Even those had to be legally sanctioned and approved by an officer.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Scouse123

[Eligius]

5 hours ago, imagemaestro said:

Noted that this part has gone unremarked.  Slow build up ....increase in army numbers.....  why ?

I am not even sure why Thailand requires a large conscript army.  Against whom are we/they afeared ?  How does having a large conscript army alleviate this ?

Or do I suspiciously think there is a political aspect to this ?

Very good post, Imagemaestro.

 

It seems to me that the main function of the Thai army is to treat the bulk of the Thai people as the enemy and keep them down and oppressed  - for the tiny privileged 'elite' to continue in their wicked ways ...

[Knocker33]

9 hours ago, webfact said:

Saturday’s incident was caused by commanders who did not control their emotions.

 

Pretty common here. 

No control at all in most Thai males

[sandemara]

9 hours ago, webfact said:

“It is totally illegal to torture anyone, even if they are subordinates in the Army. Our organisation is trying hard to campaign on the inspection of exercise of power inside military bases, but so far our efforts have not been fruitful,” Preeda said.

 

“This is a chronic problem in the Army. Most of the time, the exercise of power at a military base is left unchecked and there is no control on the use of power to order or punish someone, despite there being clear rules about this.”

The problems associated with military coups and the wrong - ill-trained and irresponsible - people holding and exercising civil power for any length of time encapsulated right there.

[Jonmarleesco]

'“The death of a conscript is very rare. Most of those [who died] had weak health or a chronic disease, so they had problems when facing intense punishment ...' This being the sort of 'punishment' the army has no business meting out in the first place? So, with such health issues, just what were they doing in the army in the first place?

 

'The spokesman said the incident would not have any effect on military conscription this year, because it was “a separate story”.' B_____ks!

 

'This year there was a need for 103,097 draftees compared to 101,307 in 2016 and 99,373 in 2015.' Uh, huh. And based on what criteria, exactly? What war is Thailand going to embark on? This bearing in mind the enemy won't be a group of weakly, chronic-diseased, conscripts.

[JAG]

You said:any other country and the 2 soldiers would be in a jail cell waiting the outcome of the investigation
Really ? Check the links I posted below
http://www.heraldonline.com/news/local/article12241880.html     USA report
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/12095670/More-than-1-in-20-troop-deaths-happen-in-training.html      UK report
 
The above were basic training deaths but some US Navy Seal recruits who already were in top condition have died from drowning or cold weather exercises.  For you " Pussy Cats" that have never served its not the Boy Scouts  Sorry for the young man who died though as Non Coms need to control themselves beating someone to death is over the top IF that was the case. I have personally seen (in the 70's) recruit hit or pushed to run nothing that would be considered severe just slightly hard persuasion/incentive to keep going.

As you yourself said the links you provided were deaths in training or from accidents, not as a result of being beaten to death by instructors.
Anyone in the British and I am sure the US armies who stood accused of beating a recruit to death would almost certainly be remanded in custody ( military or civilian) whilst awaiting trial. In the British Army, in the UK the accused would probably be charged, tried and if convicted jailed by the civilian police and courts.

[scorecard]

3 hours ago, Prbkk said:

Yes, that's one of the great frustrations for young graduates serving conscription: there appears to be little effort to use the skills of the individual, rather it's one size fits all. Consequently the kids are assigned roles unrelated to background and many of them complete training with "stale" professional skills.

Taiwan used to have the worst system: brutal , irrelevant, many, many deaths. They have cleaned it up over the past 15 years. Thailand could follow suit.

 

Agree, a long time back but when OZ had conscription for the VN war, there were many cases of medical students (and similar professions) who had run out of study deferrals and became grunts or cooks for 2 years, and many similar examples, mostly in VN.  

 

And like returned soldiers from any country / any war lots of psychological complications to return quickly, or ever, to study. 

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by scorecard

[Basil B]

Conscription does not make a professional army...

[Tony125]

2 minutes ago, JAG said:

As you yourself said the links you provided were deaths in training or from accidents, not as a result of being beaten to death by instructors.
Anyone in the British and I am sure the US armies who stood accused of beating a recruit to death would almost certainly be remanded in custody ( military or civilian) whilst awaiting trial. In the British Army, in the UK the accused would probably be charged, tried and if convicted jailed by the civilian police and courts.

Belive me I am not condoning beatings or torture of recruits just saying that the report says was allegedly beaten. I did not see photos of the young  man in hospital  but if looked like a result of beating then trainers should be held responsable . My comment is that recruits do die in basic training all over the world  even though they have passed a physical.

[55Jay]

Wonder what the circumstances were.  What had he (and others?), a lowly conscript, done to warrant the "discipline"?  Fail to clean properly?  Missed a candy bar wrapper while out on trash pick up detail?  Didn't cut the general's lawn to good enough standard? 

 

Valid reasons if the underlying lesson object is attention to detail and taking initiative, of course using reasonable leadership techniques.  A good hard smack, while an effective wake up call, especially for knot heads and silver spoon types, is not a good long term strategy, and may create and/or uncover other behavioral problems.

[Docno]

6 hours ago, IamNoone88 said:

“The death of Private Yuthinan was a tragic one and can be considered as a human rights violation. The NHRC will discuss how to deal with the case on Tuesday.”

 

In any other country, that would be called murder - not a human rights violation.

The two aren't mutually exclusive ... human rights violations can include violence/killing as well as other acts (arbitrary detention, etc.). The point of labelling an act a 'human rights violation' in addition to murder (etc.) is that it holds the authorities/government accountable for the act beyond the 'simple criminality' of what transpired.

[KBsinter]

bullied, beaten to death..... sad sad sad........ 

[lvr181]

6 hours ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

people in many professions die! but in other professions they get to choose to do that job. not so for conscripts.

Agreed but this is a third world country and the "privileged' are not wanting to do the dying, hence conscription? If the Army relied on volunteers there would only be an army of chiefs with no indians!  

 

And the Generals will probably be asking, "Who is the NHRC"?

 

As of 2014, seventy-three countries have some form of conscription or mandatory military service. So, Thailand is not alone by any means.

 

I am not condoning what has happened but TIT, aka a reality check. And no one else is going to be allowed to tell them what should be done, however indignant and righteous we all feel (myself included)!

 

And yes, I did 12 years in the military, as a volunteer, but I never saw any conscripts getting treated any better or worse than me during training.

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by lvr181
Additional comment

[Grubster]

14 hours ago, yellowboat said:

Punishments use to be KP duty, peeling potatoes or cleaning boots and barracks.  Anger shows a lack of control.   Something intolerable for men who wield a country's vast armory.  The deaths show how broken the military is and how they ruining the country. 

Not in the basic training camp I was in, KP duty would have been a reward. Get tough or else. I watched guys cry like babies, should we treat them like babies? Most got tough, one hung himself, sorry but we don't need pussy's in arms.

[williamgeorgeallen]

6 hours ago, lvr181 said:

Agreed but this is a third world country and the "privileged' are not wanting to do the dying, hence conscription? If the Army relied on volunteers there would only be an army of chiefs with no indians!  

 

And the Generals will probably be asking, "Who is the NHRC"?

 

As of 2014, seventy-three countries have some form of conscription or mandatory military service. So, Thailand is not alone by any means.

 

I am not condoning what has happened but TIT, aka a reality check. And no one else is going to be allowed to tell them what should be done, however indignant and righteous we all feel (myself included)!

 

And yes, I did 12 years in the military, as a volunteer, but I never saw any conscripts getting treated any better or worse than me during training.

 

conscription is needed  because the pay rate is too low to get 300 000 thais to voluntarily serve in the army. why thailand needs such a big army is beyond me.

[Thechook]

17 hours ago, Jonmarleesco said:

'“The death of a conscript is very rare. Most of those [who died] had weak health or a chronic disease, so they had problems when facing intense punishment ...' This being the sort of 'punishment' the army has no business meting out in the first place? So, with such health issues, just what were they doing in the army in the first place?

 

'The spokesman said the incident would not have any effect on military conscription this year, because it was “a separate story”.' B_____ks!

 

'This year there was a need for 103,097 draftees compared to 101,307 in 2016 and 99,373 in 2015.' Uh, huh. And based on what criteria, exactly? What war is Thailand going to embark on? This bearing in mind the enemy won't be a group of weakly, chronic-diseased, conscripts.

Someone got promoted and with that comes servants for the wife and personal gardeners 

[Thechook]

18 hours ago, KenKadz said:

Unless a person has served as an instructor in a military boot camp?

And knows the entire story of what transpired between trainer, trainee and fellow trainees?

 

Maybe they are all rude, belligerent, hooligans and/or unscrupulous taxi drivers, or gold snatchers, with no concept of discipline or self control, who can not adjust to following orders and contributing to a group effort, and think conscripts have rights? 

Which make it very easy for a commander to loose their control.

 

Maybe Angkhana Neelapaijit, commissioner of the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) should put on a uniform and take a commander's place before they criticize?

Yep worked as an Army instructor but was never allowed to beat and kill my students.  Physically touching them was not permitted 

[Briggsy]

18 hours ago, KenKadz said:

Unless a person has served as an instructor in a military boot camp?

And knows the entire story of what transpired between trainer, trainee and fellow trainees?

 

Maybe they are all rude, belligerent, hooligans and/or unscrupulous taxi drivers, or gold snatchers, with no concept of discipline or self control, who can not adjust to following orders and contributing to a group effort, and think conscripts have rights? 

Which make it very easy for a commander to loose their control.

 

Maybe Angkhana Neelapaijit, commissioner of the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) should put on a uniform and take a commander's place before they criticize?

You clearly do not know the history of this very brave woman.

 

Do a bit of research.

[yellowboat]

11 hours ago, Grubster said:

Not in the basic training camp I was in, KP duty would have been a reward. Get tough or else. I watched guys cry like babies, should we treat them like babies? Most got tough, one hung himself, sorry but we don't need pussy's in arms.

So the young conscript is a pussy because he got murdered ?

[lvr181]

9 hours ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

conscription is needed  because the pay rate is too low to get 300 000 thais to voluntarily serve in the army. why thailand needs such a big army is beyond me.

Beyond me also, but I think the numbers are needed to justify all the Generals and their rates of pay! And you can't have "class distinction" if the army is all one class i.e. Generals.

 

"Loss of face" comes to mind.

[The Deerhunter]

On 4/3/2017 at 10:13 AM, Bluespunk said:

Sarcasm/irony?

I think conscription is a good thing and it's a shame that Australia doesn't implement such requirement,  if it did there would be alot less violence within the community and the young learn discipline and respect as oppose to rampant drug use and burglaries,  lack of responsibility and caring.

 

But the do gooders have stuffed Australia, so they made their bed ... they can lay in it.

 

Bluespunk said: Sarcasm/irony?

 

Unfortunately, possibly not, as much as I would hope it was.  I fear that was a form of  rationalizing apology for the  status quo and the army's lack of care of its conscripts.  The  "what doesn't kill you make you stronger" philosophy taken further in clear defiance of the illogic involved. "    Oh Dear!