Trump says chemical attack in Syria crossed many lines

[Gary A]

2 hours ago, Andaman Al said:

So with all that said, why do you now think it was Assad?

 

Apparently surveillance by the us actually saw the aircraft take off in syria and knew where the bomb was dropped. Witnesses at the scene of the bomb hit saw the gas escaping.

[Andaman Al]

2 hours ago, Gary A said:

 

Apparently surveillance by the us actually saw the aircraft take off in syria and knew where the bomb was dropped. Witnesses at the scene of the bomb hit saw the gas escaping.

Nope!

 

"Apparently" what a lot of weight to put on an 'apparently'.

 

The US only tracked the path of the SU 22, there is no dispute that an attack took place. Russian and Syrian forces said that a munitions dump was being attacked. Not the wisest thing to do in a populated area, but a high value target never the less.

 

Eye witnesses saw an aircraft and heard  (they tend to get immediately undercover in a war zone where air attacks are common place) an attack. Where is there any credible source that says they saw the 'gas escape'? If it was Sarin it is odourless and cloudless and it would have been in liquid/aerosol format and if it was chlorine it was not dropped from the aircraft. If witnesses were close enough that they saw 'gas escaping' they would be ex-witnesses (but they would not have seen it 'escaping' anyway).  But lets not let facts get in the way of a good necessary story.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Andaman Al

[pkspeaker]

US backed terrorists have used chemical weapons every time and tried to blame the assad regime.  The Syrian government has heavy artillery & an airforce-if they want to randomly kill civilians they can just combne the 2 to carpet bomb any part of the country.  The only people who benefit from this are US/Turkey/Saudi/Israeli backed scumbags.  

 

These chems exploded after syrian aircraft bombed a alqueda/jaish-al-islam(whatever) arms depot, they were inside and the gas was released.

[JHolmesJr]

Confusing times…..dont know whose account is the absolute truth.

 

Don't know why assad would use chemicals when he had nothing to gain and everything to lose.

 

A real mystery.

 

So who thinks assad was stitched up by the russkies?

[Andaman Al]

5 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

Confusing times…..dont know whose account is the absolute truth.

 

Don't know why assad would use chemicals when he had nothing to gain and everything to lose.

 

A real mystery.

 

So who thinks assad was stitched up by the russkies?

I am not sure, but I am delighted you are asking the questions.

[Morch]

56 minutes ago, pkspeaker said:

US backed terrorists have used chemical weapons every time and tried to blame the assad regime.  The Syrian government has heavy artillery & an airforce-if they want to randomly kill civilians they can just combne the 2 to carpet bomb any part of the country.  The only people who benefit from this are US/Turkey/Saudi/Israeli backed scumbags.  

 

These chems exploded after syrian aircraft bombed a alqueda/jaish-al-islam(whatever) arms depot, they were inside and the gas was released.

 

On different instances, responsibility was attributed to either Assad's forces to those opposing him. Saying Assad's forces never used chemical weapons is incorrect.

 

Use of chemical weapons in the Syrian civil war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_chemical_weapons_in_the_Syrian_civil_war

 

 

[pkspeaker]

51 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

On different instances, responsibility was attributed to either Assad's forces to those opposing him. Saying Assad's forces never used chemical weapons is incorrect.

 

Use of chemical weapons in the Syrian civil war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_chemical_weapons_in_the_Syrian_civil_war

 

 

There is no definitive proof on that wiki page that Assad has ever used chemical weapons.  Just that corrupt liars like the US Gov. 'suspects' 

 

..and none of that is addressing the main point I am making, Assad has no motive to use chemical weapons, for him to use them would be a gift to the rebel groups fighting him.

 

Heavy artillery and SU & mig bombers can kill 10s of thousands in a short period of time,-this is a fact.  If the Syrian military's motive is just to randomly kill many people, WHY would they use chems?  Just to give the the liars in WDC an excuse to help these child beheading rebel groups- it's ridiculous and the US has repeatedly lied about chemical weapons and used it as a pretext to attack Iraq-this is a FACT how many times will we believe this lie?

 

 

Edited April 7, 2017 by pkspeaker

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, pkspeaker said:

There is no definitive proof on that wiki page that Assad has ever used chemical weapons.  Just that corrupt liars like the US Gov. 'suspects' 

 

..and none of that is addressing the main point I am making, Assad has no motive to use chemical weapons, for him to use them would be a gift to the rebel groups fighting him.

 

Heavy artillery and SU & mig bombers can kill 10s of thousands in a short period of time,-this is a fact.  If the Syrian military's motive is just to randomly kill many people, WHY would they use chems?  Just to give the the liars in WDC an excuse to help these child beheading scumbag rebel groups- it's ridiculous and the US has repeatedly lies about chemical weapons and used it as a pretext to attack Iraq-this is a FACT.

 

 

 

A couple of quick quotes from the link provided (both from UN bodies):

 

Quote

In its report dated 13 August 2014 they accused Government forces of using chlorine gas in 8 incidents in Idlib and Hama governorates in April 2014.

 

Quote

The list, which has not been made public, is divided into three sections. The first, is titled "Inner-Circle President" and has six people, including Assad, his brother, the defense minister and the head of military intelligence. The second section names the air force chief and its four commanders, including the heads of the 22nd Air Force Division and the 63rd Helicopter Brigade. The last section titled "Other relevant Senior Mil Personnel" includes two colonels and major-generals. This they said indicates that the decision to use gas came from the very top.

 

That you see no motive doesn't mean that there is none. There is no particular reason to expecting that Assad's considerations would comply with what posters determine to be logical. He operates under different conditions, got different priorities. Chemical weapons scare people more than conventional attacks do. It also sends a tough message of ruthlessness. And regardless of such explanations, the fact stands that Assad stockpiled these chemicals weapons for years, and that he did use them during the civil war. These attacks do not replace conventional means, but supplement them. Whether this is carried out on a whim or according to specific conditions, I have no idea. My guess would be that it serves to break the civilian population's resolve in places where the fighting stalls.

 

 

[Gary A]

I don't know either. My first thoughts were that the terrorists set up Assad. The terrorists have no respect for human life so that seemed like a likely scenario. I too thought that Assad would have to be insane to incur the wrath of all the western countries. Since so many western countries blame Assad, there must be more to the story.

[ilostmypassword]

3 hours ago, JHolmesJr said:

Confusing times…..dont know whose account is the absolute truth.

 

Don't know why assad would use chemicals when he had nothing to gain and everything to lose.

 

A real mystery.

 

So who thinks assad was stitched up by the russkies?

Do you think maybe after Tillerson said the US was no longer seeking to unseat Assad he might have felt empowered?  

[ilostmypassword]

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[Scott]

Off-topic posts removed.

 

[pkspeaker]

10 hours ago, Morch said:

 

A couple of quick quotes from the link provided (both from UN bodies):

 

 

 

That you see no motive doesn't mean that there is none. There is no particular reason to expecting that Assad's considerations would comply with what posters determine to be logical. He operates under different conditions, got different priorities. Chemical weapons scare people more than conventional attacks do. It also sends a tough message of ruthlessness. And regardless of such explanations, the fact stands that Assad stockpiled these chemicals weapons for years, and that he did use them during the civil war. These attacks do not replace conventional means, but supplement them. Whether this is carried out on a whim or according to specific conditions, I have no idea. My guess would be that it serves to break the civilian population's resolve in places where the fighting stalls.

 

 

I don't see any motive and you haven't provided a legitimate motive.  It is NOT factual that Assad has EVER used chemical weapons, he has just been accused.  One thing you said.. "  Chemical weapons scare people more than conventional attacks do. "  this is bullshit.  Have you been in a middle eastern war zone so that you can say heavy artillery does not scare people as much as gas?  I have seen with my own eyes, not just pictures, of dead mangled bodies that were the victims of an artillery barrage;  And I have talked to people who survived such random attacks as artillery and other shells.. what your saying is WRONG.  If your a civilian in a war zone YOU KNOW that the most likely cause of being killed or seriously maimed are these random shells that are exploding all over the place.  Please do not make baseless statements.

[craigt3365]

10 hours ago, pkspeaker said:

There is no definitive proof on that wiki page that Assad has ever used chemical weapons.  Just that corrupt liars like the US Gov. 'suspects' 

 

..and none of that is addressing the main point I am making, Assad has no motive to use chemical weapons, for him to use them would be a gift to the rebel groups fighting him.

 

Heavy artillery and SU & mig bombers can kill 10s of thousands in a short period of time,-this is a fact.  If the Syrian military's motive is just to randomly kill many people, WHY would they use chems?  Just to give the the liars in WDC an excuse to help these child beheading rebel groups- it's ridiculous and the US has repeatedly lied about chemical weapons and used it as a pretext to attack Iraq-this is a FACT how many times will we believe this lie?

 

 

Proof enough.  Assad has used Chlorine many times during his attacks.  Chlorine is not on the list of prohibited chemicals.  And it's been proven he's used it.  As for 2013.  It appears he did use chemical weapons there.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghouta_chemical_attack#Independent_International_Commission_of_Inquiry

Quote

Final UN Mission report

The UN inspection team returned to Syria to continue investigations into other alleged chemical attacks in late September 2013. A final report on Ghouta and six other alleged attacks (including three alleged to have occurred after the Ghouta attack) was released in December 2013.^[111] The inspectors wrote that they "collected clear and convincing evidence that chemical weapons were used also against civilians, including children, on a relatively large scale in the Ghouta area of Damascus on 21 August 2013." The conclusion was based on:

• Impacted and exploded surface-to-surface rockets, capable to carry a chemical payload, were found to contain sarin;
• Close to the rocket impact sites, in the area where patients were affected, the environment was found to be contaminated by sarin;
• The epidemiology of over fifty interviews given by survivors and health care workers provided ample corroboration of the medical and scientific results;
• A number of patients/survivors were clearly diagnosed as intoxicated by an organophosphorous compound;
• Blood and urine samples from the same patients were found positive for sarin and sarin signatures.^[2](p19)

 

 

Quote

 

According to French intelligence, the Syrian Scientific Studies and Research Center (SSRC) is responsible for producing toxic agents for use in war. A group named "Branch 450" is allegedly responsible for filling munitions with chemicals and maintaining security of the chemical agent stockpiles.^[78] As of September 2013, French intelligence estimated the Syrian stockpile at 1,000 tonnes, including Yperite, VX and "several hundred tonnes of sarin."^[78]

 

The UK's Joint Intelligence Committee publicly dismissed the possibility of rebel responsibility for the attack in Ghouta, stating that rebels are incapable of an attack of its scale.^[79] The Committee stated that "there is no credible intelligence or evidence to substantiate the claims or the possession of CW by the opposition."^[80]

 

 

They've got more info than you or I.  I'll go with the UN's assessment.

 

[pkspeaker]

That's not definitive proof that the Syrian government used them, its just suspicion, get over it. Any one of these bad actors, Turkey, Saudi could have given it to the rebels AND the rebels, many of which are syrian army defectors could have raided Army depots during the chaaos prior to most of these Syrian army weapons being removed from the country per the Russian/Obama agreement to have all Syrian Army chems removed.

 

The fact remains, the only people who have anything to gain by their use is the opposition, especially at a time when they are loosing the war again.

[craigt3365]

12 minutes ago, pkspeaker said:

That's not definitive proof that the Syrian government used them, its just suspicion, get over it. Any one of these bad actors, Turkey, Saudi could have given it to the rebels AND the rebels, many of which are syrian army defectors could have raided Army depots during the chaaos prior to most of these Syrian army weapons being removed from the country per the Russian/Obama agreement to have all Syrian Army chems removed.

 

The fact remains, the only people who have anything to gain by their use is the opposition, especially at a time when they are loosing the war again.

You're trolling. You said this:

Quote

It is NOT factual that Assad has EVER used chemical weapons, he has just been accused.  

 

And that's been proven to be false.  Assad has used chemical weapons before.  Including Chlorine.  No suspicions.  Just facts.

[Orac]

 
They've got more info than you or I.  I'll go with the UN's assessment.
 

I cannot see anywhere in the linked article or the further link contained within it to an article specific to the works of the UN Commission where they have clearly apportioned responsibility to Assad, indeed there is a clear statement in one of the early reports that they could not identify the perpetrators:

" UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon called the findings "beyond doubt and beyond the pale,” and clear evidence of a war crime. "The results are overwhelming and indisputable," he said. Ban stated a majority of the blood samples, environmental samples and rockets or rocket fragments recovered tested positive for sarin.[112] The report, which was "careful not to blame either side," said that during the mission's work in areas under rebel control, "individuals arrived carrying other suspected munitions indicating that such potential evidence is being moved and possibly manipulated."[113] The UN investigators were accompanied by a rebel leader".

[craigt3365]

4 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

I cannot see anywhere in the linked article or the further link contained within it to an article specific to the works of the UN Commission where they have clearly apportioned responsibility to Assad, indeed there is a clear statement in one of the early reports that they could not identify the perpetrators:

" UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon called the findings "beyond doubt and beyond the pale,” and clear evidence of a war crime. "The results are overwhelming and indisputable," he said. Ban stated a majority of the blood samples, environmental samples and rockets or rocket fragments recovered tested positive for sarin.[112] The report, which was "careful not to blame either side," said that during the mission's work in areas under rebel control, "individuals arrived carrying other suspected munitions indicating that such potential evidence is being moved and possibly manipulated."[113] The UN investigators were accompanied by a rebel leader".

What about the comment from the UK?  Pretty clear.  Yes, rebels have chemical weapons also.  But don't have the ability to use them like the Syrian military does. 

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/03/chlorine-gas-weapon-syria-civil-war-170314110043637.html

 

Quote

 

How chlorine gas became a weapon in Syria's civil war

Syria's chlorine problem: the human toll of chlorine attacks in six years of civil war.

 

That night, a helicopter had dropped a barrel bomb containing chlorine that exploded on Taleb's home. 

......

In February, Human Rights Watch and Solvang authored a report documenting at least eight instances of chlorine use by the Syrian regime in the battle for Aleppo between Nov. 17 and Dec. 13, 2016. The human rights watchdog verified the attacks through video footage analysis, phone, and in-person interviews, as well as by social media.

 

 

 

P.S. the rebels don't have helicopters. LOL 

[Orac]

 
 
P.S. the rebels don't have helicopters. LOL 

I thought we were talking about sarin gas attacks, a far worse chemical weapon than chlorine, as that was the subject of your post I was responding to and you statement that you would go with the UN assessment which you have failed to provide but are now moving the goalposts by talking about chlorine and a UK report.

As for the the rebels not having helicopters, I can't see the relevance and certainly not why a chemical weapons attack could make you 'LOL' since the attack being talked about was not by helicopters and the article you linked to about previous sarin attacks was carried out with surface to surface rockets.

[craigt3365]

11 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

I thought we were talking about sarin gas attacks, a far worse chemical weapon than chlorine, as that was the subject of your post I was responding to and you statement that you would go with the UN assessment which you have failed to provide but are now moving the goalposts by talking about chlorine and a UK report.

As for the the rebels not having helicopters, I can't see the relevance and certainly not why a chemical weapons attack could make you 'LOL' since the attack being talked about was not by helicopters and the article you linked to about previous sarin attacks was carried out with surface to surface rockets.

 

Hard for the UN to act when Russia and China block things.  Like they are doing now.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/un-grapples-with-impasse-over-horrific-chemical-weapons-attack-in-syria/

Quote

But a resolution circulated Tuesday by the U.S., U.K. and France condemning the attack was blocked by Russia, leaving council members with few options beyond condemning the attack and issuing calls for more robust negotiations. Talks are being led by U.N. Syria envoy Staffan de Mistura.

 

So, I referred to a UK report on the last chemical attack.  Which said Assad had done it.  Good enough for me. I'm not into conspiracy theories.  The plane that dropped the bomb was followed.  World leaders are saying Assad did this.  They've got more info than you or I.  I'll stick with their opinions.

[Orac]

 
So, I referred to a UK report on the last chemical attack.  Which said Assad had done it.  Good enough for me. I'm not into conspiracy theories.  The plane that dropped the bomb was followed.  World leaders are saying Assad did this.  They've got more info than you or I.  I'll stick with their opinions.

The UN have a specific body set up to investigate this sort of thing which is not under the control of the security council requiring Russian and Chinese cooperation and their judgement is crucial on this. As yet they have not confirmed that either this or previous sarin attacks were committed by Assad.

I, along with many others, got fooled a few years back by the need for military action based on false information that had been politically manipulated about WMD I am very wary about making the same mistake again.

You said yourself earlier that you would accept the UN's assessment on the situation however you have not yet allowed them to make that call, something similar to what happened in Iraq when Hans Blick was prematurely pulled out before his report could be made.

[ilostmypassword]

Trump said this attack crossed many lines. There is one line that Trump won't let be crossed. And that's the US border.  At least that's in the case of Syrian refugees.

[Morch]

5 hours ago, pkspeaker said:

I don't see any motive and you haven't provided a legitimate motive.  It is NOT factual that Assad has EVER used chemical weapons, he has just been accused.  One thing you said.. "  Chemical weapons scare people more than conventional attacks do. "  this is bullshit.  Have you been in a middle eastern war zone so that you can say heavy artillery does not scare people as much as gas?  I have seen with my own eyes, not just pictures, of dead mangled bodies that were the victims of an artillery barrage;  And I have talked to people who survived such random attacks as artillery and other shells.. what your saying is WRONG.  If your a civilian in a war zone YOU KNOW that the most likely cause of being killed or seriously maimed are these random shells that are exploding all over the place.  Please do not make baseless statements.

 

That you do not see other possible motives as "legitimate" is fine. My point was that Assad does not necessarily operate according to the same reasoning and priorities you and others apply.

 

And Rambo, read up any reports following chemical weapons attack, with emphasis on survivors and witnesses testimonies. They do not react to it as just another attack. Not limited solely to the conflict in Syria, btw. That's not taking away from the horrors inflicted by conventional warfare. I do not believe that you have an extensive overview of with regard to what civilians in battle zone feel or know.

 

 

[Gary A]

One of Kerry's big achievements was to have Syria dispose of 100 percent of their chemical weapons. Yes, Kerry stated 100 percent.