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Your advice is appreciated please. The step-son would like a camera. He intends to take photographs and then add/change them via photo-shop for sale. I would like to start him of and wondered would this camera (pictured) be a suitable start for him. It is 2nd hand for 5000 baht.

 

Your advice and suggestions are very much appreciated for a young man who is getting his first ever camera. Thanks very much in advance.

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Personally, I wouldn't buy a second hand camera with a retractable lens. "Lens Error" is a very common problem with these cameras. This will result in the camera's lens either not opening, or not closing, rendering the camera useless. Many of these cameras, given time, will develop this problem.

The "fix" is a replacement of the lens assembly (7,000 THB). But, in the case of the G11, Canon no longer manufactures the replacement assembly. So if, or more likely, when this problem occurs, the camera will become a paperweight. 

In the 5,000 baht price range, one can find many good, new, compact cameras, that would serve a first timer well. They may not be feature packed, but they will do the job.

My first camera was a Kodak Brownie. I loved it!

 

Screen Shot 2017-04-15 at 5.06.06 AM.png

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  • 4 months later...

Before making a choice, you need to consider many things. Perhaps you can help determine the best camera for amateur photographers article that I recently found on fixthephoto.com. I hope you like it!

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What kind of photos?  This has an enormous impact on the choice of lens.

 

Education level?  Seriously, this is important since it impacts his ability to understand of the basics of photography and his ability to learn new techniques.  Good photography is not easy and takes a lot of study and work.

 

Can he read and understand English, which is the language where he will find the most information?

 

Is he capable of understanding the exposure triangle (Exposure (photography))?  If not he is limited to Auto Exposure modes, which limits his creativity.

 

Is he capable of understanding the inverse square law for light (The Inverse Square Law)?  This impacts studio photography. and flash photography either indoors or outdoors.

 

Photoshop is a tremendously complicated program that offers multiple ways to do most things.  It is easy to get lost using it.  The typical learning time is months to be able to use it for simple things, and years for more complex things.  The longer you use it the more you learn about what you can do with it - I have been using it for about 15 years and I am still learning new things.

 

Being a good photographer is very dependent on the eye of the photographer, but the final quality of the images depends on the quality of the camera.  You can take a great photo with a cell phone but the end result printed at 32"x40" (80x100 cm) will be crap vs one that was taken with low cost consumer Digital Single Lens Reflex (DSLR). 

 

Canon, Nikon, and Sony all make good quality consumer DSLR cameras with excellent kit lenses.  The Canon EOS Rebel T7i (EOS 800D) with the EF-S 18-55mm f/4-5.6 IS STM kit lens is one example.  This is a fine combination for general still image photography and for video.  A good Nikon combination is the Nikon D5600 with the Nikon 18-140mm Lens.  I can't comment on Sony cameras.

 

There are excellent mirrorless cameras as well but the need to hold it over a foot (greater than 30cm) in front of your face to see the back of the camera display means you are MUCH more likely to cause camera shake, which dramatically reduces the image quality (i.e. throw it in the trash can).

 

What many beginning photographers don't realize is that if you are going to spend a lot of money you should spend it on lenses, not on the camera body.  Buy a good starter camera body and once you find yourself limited in the quality of your images spend your money on better lenses.  Eventually you will upgrade the body, but upgrade the lenses first.

 

If these new low cost consumer camera combinations are too expensive then look for them used at a good camera store.  Just be sure you get a return guarantee.

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Excellent suggestions above; but I would actually recommend going with a used full frame rather than a new APS-C (Nikon DX or Cannon EF-S(M)).  Eventually you'll/he'll want to go up to the prosumer models anyways and having invested in lenses in the APS-C means that you can't carry them forward.  Granted you can buy full frame lenses and use them on the smaller image sensors, but then you deal with crop factors and you end up wasting a large part of the glass.

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I spent thousands of dollars to get a degree in photography. Now a days people buy a digital camera and use a photoshop tutorial and try to undercut real photographers rates. When a person asks me about learning photography my suggestion is learn to shoot with film first. I have not seen a digital camera which allows multiple exposures. My first camera was an old Kodak which I cold no longer get film for then there was the instamatic point & shoot. To me I still remember the first time I watched an image pop up in the developer in a darkroom, it was like magic. The photo below cannot be done with a digital camera in a single image without photoshop

IMG_0853.JPG

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A deceptive title, asking for tips for a camera you purchased. Then asking advice so your step son can steal another persons job with no training

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Buy a filter set of at least 6. Keep a light-colored filter on camera lens that is on camera at all times. Filter helps with preserving real camera lens, and filters out annoying natural light.

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2 hours ago, themerg said:

Buy a filter set of at least 6. Keep a light-colored filter on camera lens that is on camera at all times. Filter helps with preserving real camera lens, and filters out annoying natural light.

Modern digital cameras don't need UV filters since they are built into the sensor.

 

The effects of colored filters used by film cameras can be duplicated easily during post processing. 

 

A lens hood is much better at protecting your lens than a clear "protective" filter.  I have one that came with my camera and it has gathered dust on the shelf for 7 years, never used.  Gentle cleaning with distilled water or lens cleaner fluid on a disposable microfiber cloth takes care of any dust or smudges on the lens.

 

A polarizing filter can be useful in a few cases to enhance the sky & clouds but you have to know when and how to use it.  99.9% of the time you are better off bracketing and combining the images to produce an enhanced sky.  Where a polarizing filter is invaluable is to minimize reflections such as when you want to shoot through water or through a reflection on a window.

 

Neutral density filters are popular because they let you use an exposure time long enough that moving water or clouds blur.  A ND filter can also let you use wider apertures in daylight so that you have a more limited depth of field, which lets you throw the background out of focus.   Three ND filters would be a full kit for almost any use.

 

I can't think of any other filter worth the investment of even a couple of Baht.

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8 hours ago, dave_boo said:

Excellent suggestions above; but I would actually recommend going with a used full frame rather than a new APS-C (Nikon DX or Cannon EF-S(M)).  Eventually you'll/he'll want to go up to the prosumer models anyways and having invested in lenses in the APS-C means that you can't carry them forward.  Granted you can buy full frame lenses and use them on the smaller image sensors, but then you deal with crop factors and you end up wasting a large part of the glass.

I used 35mm (i.e. full frame) film cameras for over 40 years before switching to digital cameras. I understand the differences between full frame and crop sensors very well.  The advantages and disadvantages of a full frame digital camera vs a crop sensor camera are small but it is amazing how many arguments are generated over which is better.

 

For a beginner I recommend buying a crop sensor camera simply because of cost.  If and when you run into a limit of what you can do with the crop sensor camera that is the time to change.  I'm 7 years into using my Canon 7D APS-C crop sensor camera for everything from family to scenics to portraits to glamour to macro photography and have yet to find any reason to spend money for a full frame camera.  My investment has been in lenses that give me more options for photography, not in full frame camera body.

 

Your mileage may vary, but for me a crop sensor DSLR has given me more options and photographic opportunities than I ever had with film.

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10 hours ago, Grumpy Duck said:

I spent thousands of dollars to get a degree in photography. Now a days people buy a digital camera and use a photoshop tutorial and try to undercut real photographers rates. When a person asks me about learning photography my suggestion is learn to shoot with film first. I have not seen a digital camera which allows multiple exposures. My first camera was an old Kodak which I cold no longer get film for then there was the instamatic point & shoot. To me I still remember the first time I watched an image pop up in the developer in a darkroom, it was like magic. The photo below cannot be done with a digital camera in a single image without photoshop

10 hours ago, Grumpy Duck said:

A deceptive title, asking for tips for a camera you purchased. Then asking advice so your step son can steal another persons job with no training

I missed the part about already purchasing a camera and asking advice on stealing someone's job.

I have had a passion for photography since the mid 50s.  Other than a couple high school classes, I have had no formal education in the field. 

I have spent endless hours in the darkroom. I now spend endless hours with photoshop. With today's technologies, we are able to create images one could only dream of a few years ago. 

Plus, my house doesn't stink! 

As far as full frame versus cropped sensor, for me, the main advantage comes into play with low light situations. 





 

 

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The Canon G11 is not really a camera to use to make money from the results.

 

It's not that it's incapable of shooting great photos. It is. But it is much harder to get professional results and far too limiting.

 

The suggestion that he should start with a full frame sensor camera is good but the APC sensor cameras are so much cheaper and capable of great results. I shot weddings on them for a long time until the full frame camera bodies became more affordable.

 

I would recommend a DSLR to start with. It's amazing how the price drops on camera bodies that are just a year or two old.

 

Without knowing what he plans on shooting, it's impossible to suggest the lenses that he might need. Will he need a decent quality flash at some point? Almost certainly.

 

Presumably he is Thai? If not, he wouldn’t be allowed to take photos professionally in Thailand. It's one of those businesses that is reserved for Thais.

 

Certainly in the UK it's not a profession I would want to get into nowadays. Too many people doing it, too many people are happy with the quality of the images from their smart phones.

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13 hours ago, HarrySeaman said:

 

I used 35mm (i.e. full frame) film cameras for over 40 years before switching to digital cameras. I understand the differences between full frame and crop sensors very well.  The advantages and disadvantages of a full frame digital camera vs a crop sensor camera are small but it is amazing how many arguments are generated over which is better.

 

For a beginner I recommend buying a crop sensor camera simply because of cost.  If and when you run into a limit of what you can do with the crop sensor camera that is the time to change.  I'm 7 years into using my Canon 7D APS-C crop sensor camera for everything from family to scenics to portraits to glamour to macro photography and have yet to find any reason to spend money for a full frame camera.  My investment has been in lenses that give me more options for photography, not in full frame camera body.

 

Your mileage may vary, but for me a crop sensor DSLR has given me more options and photographic opportunities than I ever had with film.

Your post just drives home it's the artist and not the tools.  After all Ansel Adams (and his contemporaries) had absolutely primitive equipment compared to what kit is available today.  And yet I dare any of us on this forum to match them!

 

Having never used a large format camera it blew my mind that they were using their cameras stopped down to f45 or lower.  I mean I can conceptualize the fact that it was needed; but on modern cameras the diffraction would be horrid.

I ask you to please note that I recommended going with a used full frame as that is a pretty good way to score some nice gear on the cheap.  A full 2/3 of my post was related to the lenses.

 

I'm not hip to Canon's lens selection (I'm a Nikon guy...sorry), but I do know that for Nikon the selection is not as wide as it is for the full frame.  Pan and tilt missing.  Fisheyes that end aren't as wide.  Primes that don't get as wide.  Of course maximum aperture for a given lens is usually not as high.  Proper macros (85mm or long focal length) are hard to find.

 

And as an aside I'm still using the Nikon D5300.  Big step up from the N2000 I farted around with as a teenager.  However, after really getting back into taking pictures I wish I had gone with the full frame for the lenses.  So I'm going to keep on with this one until it wears out and gives me an excuse to get the latest version of the DF if it's out then...not because it will make me a better photographer, but it's just a damn sexy camera.

Nikon-Df---professionalnaya-cifrovaya-ze

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16 hours ago, HarrySeaman said:

I used 35mm (i.e. full frame) film cameras for over 40 years before switching to digital cameras. I understand the differences between full frame and crop sensors very well.  The advantages and disadvantages of a full frame digital camera vs a crop sensor camera are small but it is amazing how many arguments are generated over which is better.

This thread was for a starter camera for somebody but I have to disagree with you about the differences between crop and full frame sensors. Unless you are wildlife photographer for me it is full frame all of the way.

 

You don't need lenses that were built for smaller sensors and the lenses you do buy will give you true wide angle. The biggest reason for me is the ease of pushing a background out of focus using a wide aperture and also, full frame sensors are simply better in low light.

DandJ.jpg

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"There are excellent mirrorless cameras as well but the need to hold it over a foot (greater than 30cm) in front of your face to see the back of the camera display means you are MUCH more likely to cause camera shake, which dramatically reduces the image quality (i.e. throw it in the trash ."

 

 

Not true. The majority of mirrorless cameras (Sony, Fuji, Panasonic, Olympus) have viewfinders, plus many of them have stabilisation systems that provide up to 5 stops of low shutter speed possibilities. You are much less likely to experience shutter shake with a mirrorless camera.

 

As for the "get a full frame" recommendations.... This is a camera for a young person to learn photography. What they need is something they will want to carry around and enjoy shooting, not a massive brick of a thing. It's a starter camera, not the basis of a lifetime system. That can come later if he gets the bug. Something compact which allows control of shutter, aperture and ISO is fine to learn on, and the image quality will be acceptable for someone starting out.

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I spent thousands of dollars to get a degree in photography. Now a days people buy a digital camera and use a photoshop tutorial and try to undercut real photographers rates. When a person asks me about learning photography my suggestion is learn to shoot with film first. I have not seen a digital camera which allows multiple exposures. My first camera was an old Kodak which I cold no longer get film for then there was the instamatic point & shoot. To me I still remember the first time I watched an image pop up in the developer in a darkroom, it was like magic. The photo below cannot be done with a digital camera in a single image without photoshop
IMG_0853.JPG.90b0110e002a55b8b9d3689c007bc77f.JPG

Multiple exposures is hardly relevant for someone learning photography, but just to correct you: Many digital cameras can make multi exposures in camera. Mine certainly can and there are many others.
http://www.popphoto.com/how-to/2014/04/how-to-shoot-camera-double-exposure-photo
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7 hours ago, rasg said:

This thread was for a starter camera for somebody but I have to disagree with you about the differences between crop and full frame sensors. Unless you are wildlife photographer for me it is full frame all of the way.

 

You don't need lenses that were built for smaller sensors and the lenses you do buy will give you true wide angle. The biggest reason for me is the ease of pushing a background out of focus using a wide aperture and also, full frame sensors are simply better in low light.

<Image removed to shorten quote>

 

I'm not sure where you and dave_boo are getting your information about lenses.

 

With most Canon or Nikon crop sensor camera you can use either full frame DSLR lenses or lenses designed especially for crop sensor cameras.  The problem is not with using full frame sensor lenses with crop sensor cameras, it is with using crop sensor lenses with full frame cameras.  Crop sensor lenses simply won't mount on a full frame camera.

 

With my APS-C crop sensor Canon 7D I have one crop sensor lens and four full frame sensor lenses.

 

Crop Sensor Only:

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS II 

 

Full Frame or Crop Sensor:

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm F/2.8 XR Di USM
Canon EF 70-200mm f/4L IS
Tamron SP 90MM F/2.8 Di 1:1 Macro

 

When you use a full frame lens with a crop sensor camera you are using only the center of the image the lens is capable of producing.  The center is the best part of the image with the greatest sharpness and the least image distortion and vignetting.

 

Crop sensor lenses are designed for beginners and amateur photographers, not for professionals.    These lenses may not be as rugged or quite as good optically as the professional grade full frame lenses but they are still good quality lenses and priced very reasonably.  It is worth noting that not all full frame lenses are professional grade so they are not as rugged or as good optically as the professional grade ones.

 

The camera I recommended before,  the Canon T7i (EOS 800D) is not one of the cameras that can accept full frame lenses.  For the ability to use either crop sensor or full frame lenses you need to move up to the Canon 77D/EOS 9000. 

 

I just checked the prices on Lazada for new cameras and it looks like I should change my recommendation to the Canon 77D plus one of the kit lenses.  The price difference with the 18-55mm lens is only 1510 Bt and the 77D is a more capable camera.

 

Canon EOS 800D KIT 18-55 STM is priced at 26,790 Bt

Canon EOS 77D Kit 18-55mm STM is priced at 28,300 Bt

Canon EOS 77D Kit EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM is priced at 36,990 Bt

 

The 18-55 lens is fine for scenics or street photography.  It is not an appropriate lens for portraiture.

 

For portraiture you want to stay close to 15' (4.5m) from the subject to eliminate distortion of the subject.  You can get by with a smaller separation but if you are closer than about 10' (3m) the distortion is clearly visible.  The 18-135mm lens would be the better choice since it covers scenics, street, and portraiture.

 

Buying a used camera and lens is not a bad suggestion as long as you buy from a reliable dealer who will give, and who will honor, at least a 3-month warrantee for repair or exchange.
 

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"Crop sensor lenses are designed for beginners and amateur photographers, not for professionals."
<deleted>! There are many professionals using crop sensor cameras and many of the lenses are up there with the full frame lenses.
There is so much opinionated nonsense being spouted on this thread in response to a straightforward request as to a good starter camera.

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On 9/1/2017 at 8:22 AM, HarrySeaman said:

 

I used 35mm (i.e. full frame) film cameras for over 40 years before switching to digital cameras. I understand the differences between full frame and crop sensors very well.  The advantages and disadvantages of a full frame digital camera vs a crop sensor camera are small but it is amazing how many arguments are generated over which is better.

 

For a beginner I recommend buying a crop sensor camera simply because of cost.  If and when you run into a limit of what you can do with the crop sensor camera that is the time to change.  I'm 7 years into using my Canon 7D APS-C crop sensor camera for everything from family to scenics to portraits to glamour to macro photography and have yet to find any reason to spend money for a full frame camera.  My investment has been in lenses that give me more options for photography, not in full frame camera body.

 

Your mileage may vary, but for me a crop sensor DSLR has given me more options and photographic opportunities than I ever had with film.

I shoot with a Canon EOS1N as well as a Toyo 4x5 view camera. It is difficult to find film now but it can be found. I purchased a cheap EOS 550D and I really hate having to recalculate lens focal length. I am not happy with the APS format at all, I spent a lot of money on my 20mm L lens just to find it is the equalivalent of a 35mm lens my 100 macro works ok. But again I ask, Can you shoot multiple exposures in manual mode with digital? I understand a digital camera can now be converted to shoot IR but to spend ฿20,000 for a second body doesn't interest me.

 

 

IMG_0212.JPG.2008e99dabbaeb107bcc3df6f1709aa1.JPG

 

Aspens in fall shot on Navajo reservation Flagstaff, Az 1999 Canon Rebel G shot on kodak HIR film (no longer available) using B+W 29 filter

 

IMG_0198.JPG.293e89623b581bbb91418f89ac12215e.JPG

 

A double exposure using Canon Rebel G, Canon 100mm macro lens in studio. I have not heard of any digital camera that can do this in a single frame. Can be done in photoshop using multiple images and layers adjusting opacity.

IMG_0210.JPG.156018e718687d8d5af7254c6dc97fdf.JPGShot in studio with Canon 20mm L on PRN film

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15 hours ago, FracturedRabbit said:


Multiple exposures is hardly relevant for someone learning photography, but just to correct you: Many digital cameras can make multi exposures in camera. Mine certainly can and there are many others.
http://www.popphoto.com/how-to/2014/04/how-to-shoot-camera-double-exposure-photo

Thanks for the info, what do you shoot with? And how much did it cost? I asked a Canon rep if they made a camera capable of manual multiple exposures, his reply was "No". 

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9 hours ago, HarrySeaman said:

 

I'm not sure where you and dave_boo are getting your information about lenses.

 

With most Canon or Nikon crop sensor camera you can use either full frame DSLR lenses or lenses designed especially for crop sensor cameras.  The problem is not with using full frame sensor lenses with crop sensor cameras, it is with using crop sensor lenses with full frame cameras.  Crop sensor lenses simply won't mount on a full frame camera.

 

With my APS-C crop sensor Canon 7D I have one crop sensor lens and four full frame sensor lenses.

 

Crop Sensor Only:

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS II 

 

Full Frame or Crop Sensor:

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm F/2.8 XR Di USM
Canon EF 70-200mm f/4L IS
Tamron SP 90MM F/2.8 Di 1:1 Macro

 

When you use a full frame lens with a crop sensor camera you are using only the center of the image the lens is capable of producing.  The center is the best part of the image with the greatest sharpness and the least image distortion and vignetting.

 

Crop sensor lenses are designed for beginners and amateur photographers, not for professionals.    These lenses may not be as rugged or quite as good optically as the professional grade full frame lenses but they are still good quality lenses and priced very reasonably.  It is worth noting that not all full frame lenses are professional grade so they are not as rugged or as good optically as the professional grade ones.

 

The camera I recommended before,  the Canon T7i (EOS 800D) is not one of the cameras that can accept full frame lenses.  For the ability to use either crop sensor or full frame lenses you need to move up to the Canon 77D/EOS 9000. 

 

I just checked the prices on Lazada for new cameras and it looks like I should change my recommendation to the Canon 77D plus one of the kit lenses.  The price difference with the 18-55mm lens is only 1510 Bt and the 77D is a more capable camera.

 

Canon EOS 800D KIT 18-55 STM is priced at 26,790 Bt

Canon EOS 77D Kit 18-55mm STM is priced at 28,300 Bt

Canon EOS 77D Kit EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM is priced at 36,990 Bt

 

The 18-55 lens is fine for scenics or street photography.  It is not an appropriate lens for portraiture.

 

For portraiture you want to stay close to 15' (4.5m) from the subject to eliminate distortion of the subject.  You can get by with a smaller separation but if you are closer than about 10' (3m) the distortion is clearly visible.  The 18-135mm lens would be the better choice since it covers scenics, street, and portraiture.

 

Buying a used camera and lens is not a bad suggestion as long as you buy from a reliable dealer who will give, and who will honor, at least a 3-month warrantee for repair or exchange.
 

You are not understanding me and yet spent a goodly chunk of your quoted post expanding on what I said in my fist post on this thread.

 

you can buy full frame lenses and use them on the smaller image sensors

 

As I professed I am a Nikon man and you can use DX lenses on the FX bodies. The beauty of the F-mount. Yes you either tell the camera to use only the pixels covered or you end up with black borders.

 

I would like to point out your widest lens is 27mm (35mm equivalent).

 

You then go on about using only the centre of the full frame glass. Funnily I said the same thing more tersly.

 

you end up wasting a large part of the glass.

 

I am just be stupid and am inappropriately linking what you are saying to what I said but it seems like we are mostly in agreement. Would you care to disprove my below statement? 

 

Pan and tilt missing.  Fisheyes that end aren't as wide.  Primes that don't get as wide.  Of course maximum aperture for a given lens is usually not as high.  Proper macros (85mm or long focal length) are hard to find.
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When you start talking about IR and tilt/shift lenses you are talking about a very niche market. A bit like film now. Very hard to get processed and the results are simply not as good.

 

To me it makes no sense whatsoever to have a digital camera that does multiple exposures nowadays, when using Photoshop is simply not hit and miss, in comparison to the way it used to be done. I have been using Photoshop since 1987 and bought my first digital camera back in around when they became affordable.

 

None of this is relevant to the original post and even if the OP's stepson goes onto to become a pro photographer he is very unlikely to be using any of the above.

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1 hour ago, rasg said:

When you start talking about IR and tilt/shift lenses you are talking about a very niche market. A bit like film now. Very hard to get processed and the results are simply not as good.

 

To me it makes no sense whatsoever to have a digital camera that does multiple exposures nowadays, when using Photoshop is simply not hit and miss, in comparison to the way it used to be done. I have been using Photoshop since 1987 and bought my first digital camera back in around when they became affordable.

 

None of this is relevant to the original post and even if the OP's stepson goes onto to become a pro photographer he is very unlikely to be using any of the above.

I think some of the pushback in this thread comes from people who were classically trained in photography and are upset the profession has been distilled down to electronics.  I kinda emphasize with them as all those filters and brushes in Photoshop take away from visualizing and capturing a good photo.  But that cat is already out of the bag and it's the same as those who cry about advancing the magneto instead of making the changes through the OBDII.

 

IR is definitely a niche market; but using tilt/shift for landscape, houses, etc. is a way one can make a good chunk of change by selling the product to realtors.

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8 hours ago, dave_boo said:

I think some of the pushback in this thread comes from people who were classically trained in photography and are upset the profession has been distilled down to electronics.  I kinda emphasize with them as all those filters and brushes in Photoshop take away from visualizing and capturing a good photo.  But that cat is already out of the bag and it's the same as those who cry about advancing the magneto instead of making the changes through the OBDII.

 

IR is definitely a niche market; but using tilt/shift for landscape, houses, etc. is a way one can make a good chunk of change by selling the product to realtors.

I was classically trained and used film for 30 years from the days of my original Cosmic 35 when I was 13 or 14 but loved digital from the moment it became affordable. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

 

You are right about tilt/shift lenses but there is not that many more uses for them.

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One can fool and fiddle and work out something with an in camera double exposure. 

One can also fire off a few frames and create something post in Photoshop.

 

jump5.jpg

As far as IR is concerned, just too arty-farty for me.

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