Evaporation or leak?

[grollies]

On 29/10/2017 at 10:44 AM, ChomDo said:

 

Is your pump above or below the pool water level?

[ChomDo]

9 minutes ago, grollies said:

Is your pump above or below the pool water level?

Slightly above water level. It's always been in the same place and it used to prime perfectly. 

[ChomDo]

44 minutes ago, carlyai said:

For me I don't really know. Pumps are supposed to run full of water, so you are probably doing damage if you don't run it full of water.
So what's the down side? Your pump works harder, you use a little more electricity and you damage the impeller.
I replace an impeller on a pump (B500 I think). Difference with pump performance was chalk and cheese.
So if you are getting enough flow, and you don't want to do anything, maybe in the future you buy a new impeller.

I am not an expert and I am just guessing.



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You're right about that and I would love it to run full like before. It used to prime perfectly before. I just don't see what options I have left and I'm tired of dealing with this issue on and on. So I was just thinking that if it doesn't really harm the pump I would let it be for now. Today after running the pump for 3 hours it was probably 80-90% full, so not too bad, but still not 100% like before.

[chickenslegs]

I haven't read all 7 pages, so excuse me if this has already been asked.

 

Are you sure that the lid of the filter basket chamber on the pump is properly sealed and that the drainage plug is sealed too?

 

Air can be drawn in from both - which could cause the problem you describe.

[ChomDo]

11 hours ago, chickenslegs said:

I haven't read all 7 pages, so excuse me if this has already been asked.

 

Are you sure that the lid of the filter basket chamber on the pump is properly sealed and that the drainage plug is sealed too?

 

Air can be drawn in from both - which could cause the problem you describe.

The lid is tight and the O-ring is new (the pool and equipment is just about 6 months old). I have checked the drainage plug on the pump and it seems good. O ring is in place there too and it's screwed in tight. If the drainage plug was letting air in it should also let water out when pump is off right? 

[carlyai]

When you said you you tested the skimmer with the pool hose and the vacuum was good, was there still air bubbles in the pump top?

So I take it you were sucking water from the bottom of the pool through the skimmer to the pump?

 

You've checked for any water leaks, doesn't matter how small, everywhere on the suction side?

 

In the skimmer, there is no vortex where strong suction is causing air to be drawn in?

 

Did you use the special high pressure glue, and not the normal or tube upvc glue?

 

I'm sure you've done all this.

 

Finally can you rig up another connection into the pump so you can put the vacuum cleaner with hose on the bottom of the pool and the other end straight into the pump, bypassing the skimmer and all pipes.

 

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EDIT

 

Maybe a job for next year...too much valuable beer drinking time lost already.

 

 

[ChomDo]

1 hour ago, carlyai said:

When you said you you tested the skimmer with the pool hose and the vacuum was good, was there still air bubbles in the pump top?

So I take it you were sucking water from the bottom of the pool through the skimmer to the pump?

 

You've checked for any water leaks, doesn't matter how small, everywhere on the suction side?

 

In the skimmer, there is no vortex where strong suction is causing air to be drawn in?

 

Did you use the special high pressure glue, and not the normal or tube upvc glue?

 

I'm sure you've done all this.

 

Finally can you rig up another connection into the pump so you can put the vacuum cleaner with hose on the bottom of the pool and the other end straight into the pump, bypassing the skimmer and all pipes.

 

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EDIT

 

Maybe a job for next year...too much valuable beer drinking time lost already.

 

 

Yes I was sucking water in from the pool floor just to test the suction. There's a lot of air in the pump when I use the vacuum hose. As I remember that's always been the case, but the suction is very strong from the end of the vacuum hose. I just think it's easier to check the suction power with the vacuum hose than putting your hand down the skimmer. 

 

Sure like I've said before I've checked the very obvious long ago and now I've checked everything I could possibly think of (or that I've read about online). I mean it's working well enough now and a lot better compared to last week when the pvc connection in the skimmer line was leaking. There must be some reason for the air bubbles in the pump basket but I'm tired of trying to figure it out. At least this morning when I run the pump for 3 hours again no more air bubbles were shooting out of the return and the pump basket was probably like over 90 % full. Maybe not a big hazard to let it be for now?   

[ChomDo]

I have one more theory that nobody asked about and haven't seen any mention about it on the internet either. So when that so "pool guy" fixed the leak in the lower return last month he also changed quite a few of the other pipes. That's when the skimmer problems started and we got this other guy to fix the leak in the skimmer pipe (which of course I thought was obviously causing the air in the pump basket).

 

For some reason that "pool guy" changed the draining line to go up about about 40-50 cm from the ground and then connect to the skimmer pipe straight from above (as you can see in the picture). I didn't think of it much that time but I just noticed from older pictures that it used to run along the ground level at the same height as the skimmer pipe and the pump. Somehow with common sense just seems weird that the draining pipe would run 40-50 cm higher than the skimmer line and pump and then connect to the same line. Could this be causing the problems with the skimmer and the air in the pump basket?

 

Picture below will show how the two pipes run and connect. 

[janclaes47]

I would start with using proper valves.

Edited November 13, 2017 by janclaes47

[ChomDo]

17 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

I would start with using proper valves.

Could you please answer the question above first if you know about it? Would be much more helpful for me. 

 

After that I would be interested in knowing about the proper valves you mentioned. The pool system and all the pipes were working perfectly with the current valves before the "pool guy" changed the drain line to run high like that. I'm not sure what you mean by proper valves but just to mention that the draining pipe valve is further away at the back close to ground level (just didn't fit in the picture).

Edited November 13, 2017 by ChomDo

[janclaes47]

12 minutes ago, ChomDo said:

The pool system and all the pipes were working perfectly with the current valves before the "pool guy" changed the drain line to run high like that

Really?

 

Anyway yesterday I was wondering why the pool pump is not working normally (lots of air in under the pump cover).

 

 

[carlyai]

I have one more theory that nobody asked about and haven't seen any mention about it on the internet either. So when that so "pool guy" fixed the leak in the lower return last month he also changed quite a few of the other pipes. That's when the skimmer problems started and we got this other guy to fix the leak in the skimmer pipe (which of course I thought was obviously causing the air in the pump basket).

 

For some reason that "pool guy" changed the draining line to go up about about 40-50 cm from the ground and then connect to the skimmer pipe straight from above (as you can see in the picture). I didn't think of it much that time but I just noticed from older pictures that it used to run along the ground level at the same height as the skimmer pipe and the pump. Somehow with common sense just seems weird that the draining pipe would run 40-50 cm higher than the skimmer line and pump and then connect to the same line. Could this be causing the problems with the skimmer and the air in the pump basket?

 

Picture below will show how the two pipes run and connect. 

Looks like the pump inlet before had a black connector on it. Looks like now the connection goes straight into the pump with drain pipe as well, and the connector is on the other side of the drain pipe.

 

What I found before when I did mine, was there is a very loose fit between the black and blue pipes, and someone posted that the blue pipes aren't supposed to go into black fittings.

 

We were looking for a leak between the skimmer and pump. This may well have been fixed as you said, but you seem to have introduced two more unknowns into the suction side: the changing of the pump inlet connector and the drain pipe.

 

I'd go to Klong Toey, to the place they carve up the pigs and get a hit man to handle the two pool guys; then put the connector back where it should be for the pump inlet. This blue into black pipe could be your problem unless I'm not seeing it correctly.

 

 

 

 

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Edit

 

Maybe I wasn't seeing it correctly. If there is a black connector going into the pump, unscrew it and the one on the other side and leave out the drain and put a pipe straight through. Need to be particularly careful with adding a lot of glue (as loose fit black into blue).

[ChomDo]

42 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

Really?

 

Anyway yesterday I was wondering why the pool pump is not working normally (lots of air in under the pump cover).

 

 

Come on haha. My point was just that I asked a simple question "can the drain pipe coming from above like that cause air in the pump basket"? But you just choose to comment on something totally different instead of being helpful and answering the question above. 

 

All the other problems that you quoted above have been solved and the system and all pipes were working fine (except that there was a leak in the lower return line) just before this guy made the new drain pipe and skimmer pipe.

[janclaes47]

Just now, ChomDo said:

Come on haha. My point was just that I asked a simple question "can the drain pipe coming from above like that cause air in the pump basket"? But you just choose to comment on something totally different instead of being helpful and answering the question above. 

 

All the other problems that you quoted above have been solved and the system and all pipes were working fine (except that there was a leak in the lower return line) just before this guy made the new drain pipe and skimmer pipe.

 

Not really, you were asking if the change in the drain pipe could be the cause of the air in your pump, while you had that air long time before the pump guy did any modification.

 

I stay with my remark, start with changing the valves with proper true union valves.

 

 

[ChomDo]

46 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Looks like the pump inlet before had a black connector on it. Looks like now the connection goes straight into the pump with drain pipe as well, and the connector is on the other side of the drain pipe.

 

What I found before when I did mine, was there is a very loose fit between the black and blue pipes, and someone posted that the blue pipes aren't supposed to go into black fittings.

 

We were looking for a leak between the skimmer and pump. This may well have been fixed as you said, but you seem to have introduced two more unknowns into the suction side: the changing of the pump inlet connector and the drain pipe.

 

I'd go to Klong Toey, to the place they carve up the pigs and get a hit man to handle the two pool guys; then put the connector back where it should be for the pump inlet. This blue into black pipe could be your problem unless I'm not seeing it correctly.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

 

 

Edit

 

Maybe I wasn't seeing it correctly. If there is a black connector going into the pump, unscrew it and the one on the other side and leave out the drain and put a pipe straight through. Need to be particularly careful with adding a lot of glue (as loose fit black into blue).

Thanks for the advice. That could be it too. My main concern is that the drain pipe going up 50 cm from the skimmer line doesn't fill up with water and therefore gives air into the pump basket. Somehow it seems that way too because when I use the filter on backwash or drain mode the pump basket goes 100 % full and then when I switch to filter mode after that I can keep the pump basket pretty much full of water. Then when I use vacuum again or open the pump lid the skimmer won't prime the pump back to full again unless I backwash or drain to make the basket full. 

[ChomDo]

5 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

 

Not really, you were asking if the change in the drain pipe could be the cause of the air in your pump, while you had that air long time before the pump guy did any modification.

 

I stay with my remark, start with changing the valves with proper true union valves.

 

 

Maybe there was a confusion here. Before that "pool guy" changed the skimmer pipe and the drain pipe coming from above like that my pump basket was 100 % full of water, so priming perfectly. 

 

So do you happen to know if the drain pipe connecting to the skimmer pipe from above like that could cause the problem? I'm not sure if I'm guessing the physics of this correctly, but it seems to me that this is the problem. Especially that after backwashing or draining I can keep the pump basket pretty much full again. Meaning that when the draining pipe above is forced to fill with water then the pump primes normally again. 

[grollies]

2 hours ago, ChomDo said:

I have one more theory that nobody asked about and haven't seen any mention about it on the internet either. So when that so "pool guy" fixed the leak in the lower return last month he also changed quite a few of the other pipes. That's when the skimmer problems started and we got this other guy to fix the leak in the skimmer pipe (which of course I thought was obviously causing the air in the pump basket).

 

For some reason that "pool guy" changed the draining line to go up about about 40-50 cm from the ground and then connect to the skimmer pipe straight from above (as you can see in the picture). I didn't think of it much that time but I just noticed from older pictures that it used to run along the ground level at the same height as the skimmer pipe and the pump. Somehow with common sense just seems weird that the draining pipe would run 40-50 cm higher than the skimmer line and pump and then connect to the same line. Could this be causing the problems with the skimmer and the air in the pump basket?

 

Picture below will show how the two pipes run and connect. 

'Draining line'? Why on earth is the 'draining line' connected to the pump suction like that?

 

Does the pipe run vertically off the suction, horizontal and then run back down vertically again?

 

Assuming it connects the pump suction to the pool floor drain try running the pump with the skimmer and drain pipework open 50/50.

 

You need to at least try to bleed the pipes of air before running the pump.

 

A piping drawing/sketch would help.

 

Oh, and Carl is right about the hitman

Edited November 13, 2017 by grollies

[carlyai]

Just guessing, but with my set up, if air gets in the pump view chamber, it eventually goes through the filter and bubbles out the return. At that stage the pump is full of water and there is no more air in the system.
I would have thought that if air is still getting into the pump then the view chamber will not be 100% full of water.

It could be that valve on the drain, maybe it can suck air in (even when its closed)as it's not the correct type, that's why you were advised to change it. I don't have any of your type valves so I don't know their specification.

Sorry not much help.



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[carlyai]

For me to be of any further help I need to go back to the start and reread it all.

To me, the start picture and last pics are different. Have you got a start pic and last pic in the same orientation?



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[ChomDo]

I'll add a picture from the beginning (April this year) and now. The one from the beginning is quite unclear, but I have added the text to point at the main drain and skimmer lines. Right now it's hard to even get a clear picture because the all the piping is in a closed 1x1,5m wooden box. From what I remember the space issue was the reason why the "pool guy" made the new draining pipe above all the other pipes. All the other pipes you see in the cramped space are for the jacuzzi and water falls and do not have any issues. 

 

As you can hopefully see from the before picture (the one taken in the beginning), the main drain pipe was running straight along the ground level into the pump and the skimmer line connected to it. When the pipes were still like that there was no air in the pump basket and no problems with the skimmer. 

 

Please don't confuse any earlier issues with my pool to this topic. Now I'm only referring to the air in the pump basket since this guy changed the skimmer line and main drain line. At the moment it's the only problem I have with my pool.  

 

Also the observation that I mentioned from this morning is interesting. After I backwash or use the drain function in my filter the pump basket fills with water quickly and stays nearly full when I start the pump on filter mode again. Then again if I open the pump lid or use the vacuum it will go back to 2/3 full and stay that way when I run the pump. So by just using the skimmer it won't prime to full capacity by itself.

[Naam]

5 hours ago, carlyai said:

I'd go to Klong Toey, to the place they carve up the pigs and get a hit man to handle the two pool guys

[carlyai]

Next time when you stop the pump and before you take the pump lid off, close the skimmer and main drain valves. See if that helps priming when you open them and quickly start the motor.


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[Crossy]

3 hours ago, ChomDo said:

I'll add a picture from the beginning (April this year) and now. The one from the beginning is quite unclear, but I have added the text to point at the main drain and skimmer lines.

Hmmm, does this ring any bells?

 

 

And I thought our bathroom plumbing belonged to BP.

 

 

 

[grollies]

Run your pump with the skimmer valve 75% open and the main drain suction valve 25% open. That should clear all the air from the pump basket.

[ChomDo]

29 minutes ago, grollies said:

Run your pump with the skimmer valve 75% open and the main drain suction valve 25% open. That should clear all the air from the pump basket.

Ok I could try that. Earlier you said 50/50 right? Should I try this just for a while to see if the pump basket fills up and then close the drain valve and open the skimmer valve fully again? 

[grollies]

19 minutes ago, ChomDo said:

Ok I could try that. Earlier you said 50/50 right? Should I try this just for a while to see if the pump basket fills up and then close the drain valve and open the skimmer valve fully again? 

For proper circulation you should run 75/25 skimmer/main drain as the norm, not 100% on skimmer.

 

Try 50/50 to start, should clear quicker, then go 75/50.

Edited November 14, 2017 by grollies

[ChomDo]

42 minutes ago, grollies said:

For proper circulation you should run 75/25 skimmer/main drain as the norm, not 100% on skimmer.

 

Try 50/50 to start, should clear quicker, then go 75/50.

I always thought that the main drain has to be closed fully and skimmer open fully. That's what was told by the pool company that built the pool, but yea I wouldn't trust on them much. So I should always keep skimmer 75% and main drain 25%.

 

I just tried kind of all options 75/25 first then 50/50, but didn't change anything. The same air bubble at the top of the pump basket is still there. What could that mean then. Does it indicate to a certain problem then?

[grollies]

You're pumping back to the pool via your return ports.

 

There should be a tee off the pump discharge pipe somewhere to pump water to drain.

 

Try cracking that valve to run more water through the pump and clear the air (add water to your pool first).

 

It's possible you are not getting enough flow through the pump to remove the air pocket.

Edited November 14, 2017 by grollies

[ChomDo]

46 minutes ago, grollies said:

You're pumping back to the pool via your return ports.

 

There should be a tee off the pump discharge pipe somewhere to pump water to drain.

 

Try cracking that valve to run more water through the pump and clear the air (add water to your pool first).

 

It's possible you are not getting enough flow through the pump to remove the air pocket.

I only have one return port left because the other one was blocked due to the leaking pipe. 

 

There is no tee or valve in my pump discharge pipe. To drain I just switch the filter to drain mode and the water flows out to the drain trough the discharge pipe.

 

I accidentally just found this picture when searching about pool piping. My drain pipe is now set exactly the same way as in the picture below. So I assume that my drain pipe would have that air lock there too, and would that be the reason for the air in the pump basket?

 

Anyway no matter how I open the skimmer and drain valves the air bubble in the basket remains the same. It's quite small at the moment though, so I really don't know can it cause any harm? I'll add a picture below.  

[grollies]

41 minutes ago, ChomDo said:

I only have one return port left because the other one was blocked due to the leaking pipe. 

 

There is no tee or valve in my pump discharge pipe. To drain I just switch the filter to drain mode and the water flows out to the drain trough the discharge pipe.

 

I accidentally just found this picture when searching about pool piping. My drain pipe is now set exactly the same way as in the picture below. So I assume that my drain pipe would have that air lock there too, and would that be the reason for the air in the pump basket?

 

Anyway no matter how I open the skimmer and drain valves the air bubble in the basket remains the same. It's quite small at the moment though, so I really don't know can it cause any harm? I'll add a picture below.  

If the bubble is small you don't have a problem, as long as the impeller is flooded. What diameter is all that pipework?