Auto scooter or a small cruiser (Phantom, Boss, Lifan, Keeway)

[Agusts]

After renting automatic scooters over the years ( I usually spend half a year in LOS), I am thinking of buying a used bike, but it looks like I need two, a small one (scooter) for around town and another (cruiser) for long trips... (hard to get two at the budget of around 40k baht)

 

I like the scooters, they are small, convenient and auto, great for around town and shopping - specially those with flat foot-floor , on long trips, I found that place perfect for putting luggage etc. (where would you put luggage on a cruiser.. .!?).

 

But going on a long road trip with a Click, Mio, Skydrive etc. is not that pleasant, a bit rough, shaky ride and handling (all of these also have only one shock, the two shock ones have no flat foot-floor, except pricey Honda SH150), sitting position a bit tiring, the wind blew me away on various occasions, and not a lot of power (although I found 80kph even hard to deal with on a scooter with cars passing by and pushing you around). But that place to put the luggage is great specially if you carry a passenger.

 

So I have looked at small cruisers like Phantom 200, Boss 175, Lifan (250-B v-twin) and Keeway (Superlight 200), mainly because of their comfortable sitting positions - I am not a biker and hate to sit on a standard bike like CBR or Ninja (that's just me). So I am looking for comfort, reliable, easy handling ride, not a racing machine or one to show off.

 

The cruisers are also all manual, it's been 30 years since I rode manual bikes, but I think that is not majorly concerning - would be a pain for short distances in traffic and around town though (by the way I am usually around Puhket/Krabi area).

 

Another concern is where you put your luggage, if alone I guess can put it at the back and wrap it up somehow, but if with passenger that't not possible (I guess rack sacks on our backs are the only options) - not a fan of those saddle bags and Givi boxes...(I doubt they can take a lot anyway).

 

Now as for the models, I read a bit, I know these are under-powered considering their weight, Phantom's gears a bit iffy with 6 up and hard to manage but also the camshaft tensioner thingy (I am no expert) having a fault that blows up the engine every so often (!?!), on the other hand as a Honda, easy to find parts and repair. For Boss it is a bit harder to get parts and repair and also even less power. Both of these can be found at 40k baht range for a 10-15 years old. (What issues to look out for in such old bikes !)

 

The Lifan and Keeway of course are Chinese, so plastic and unreliability and all that, but maybe have newer/modern stuff on the dash, light etc. and you can get 2 or 3 years old for 40k baht - Lifan has more power with 250cc and v-twin engine, but the question is how long they last...! What about parts and repair... !?

 

I assume the ride on all these four is very similar as they have similar sitting position and shape etc. - would it be a lot more fun on the road than scooters (or not) !?

 

So just give me your comments and correct me about my assumptions and if it were you what would you buy with 40k baht - or perhaps I would just keep renting (which I probably end up doing.... lol)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2017 by Agusts

[ktm jeff]

For 40K , you wont get two decent bikes , so , if most of your riding is local , get a 6 Month old Yamaha 125cc fuel injected Grand Filano scooter ( probably the best scoot you can get ) and on the occasions you think you need a "long distance tourer" , just go out and hire one. Yamaha has other flat floor models too - i think the Mio / fino.

[DILLIGAD]

For just 40k you will likely get an unregistered pile of cr@p.
Stick to renting, is my advice.


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[Nickymaster]

For 40k baht I would get a new race exhaust for my bike. And yeah, I also think renting is the best option for you because with your budget you wont have money for repairs and unforeseen expenses.


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[papa al]

Everything you brought up in OP is about right.

[Richard-BKK]

My two cents about small cruisers, I would not recommend a Honda Phantom AT200 or a Kawasaki Boss 175, both models are more than 10 years out of production and some spare-parts are getting hard to get…

 

The Keeway Superlight 200 is a wonderful machine for what it cost, but for touring the countryside it has maybe not enough power. The Lifan LF250-B is a older model which comes with carburetors, Lifan already has the LF250-P which is equipped with fuel-injection. Keeway also has a nice small 250cc V-twin cruiser with fuel-injection it’s called the Blackster 250…

 

As alternative for the Honda Phantom 200, Honda currently has the Rebel 300 which is an excellent small 286cc single-cylinder cruiser… Personally I would prefer a V-twin 250cc as it produces less vibration at cruising speed...

[VocalNeal]

How much for an old Forza?

[Agusts]

Thanks for all the info, some good points and suggestions, I read more archive about Honda Phantom and even new ones  out of factory gave people a lot of headaches, although I must say quite a lot of these were sold, so need to look at the stats properly  - I think they sold 5 or 10 times more than say Boss (or the new Chinese that didn't even existed for so many years), hence more report of troubles.

 

I am in no hurry, so will rent until a special opportunity come up and then maybe will consider buying a cruiser. But you must admit the joy of cruising on one of these should really outweigh being on a scooter at 80kph... ! 

 

 

 

 

[Richard-BKK]

The Lifan LF250-B is identical to the Yamaha Virago 250,  which dates back to 1984 - Lifan bought the rights from Yamaha including some production facilities. Yamaha moved all cruisers to American factories and renamed the brand V-Star Motorcycles. The engine of the Lifan LF250-B is a rock-solid design and not much can go wrong if you keep maintenance up-to-date. The 1984 V-twin 250cc engine is so reliable that Yamaha even today uses it for the Yamaha V-Star 250 cruiser.

 

Lifan also sells the 250cc V-twin cruiser to several European countries so they had to fix some exhaust emission problems, they replaced the carburetors with a modern electronic fuel injection system developed by an leading American company. Yamaha on the other hand is still using for the 2017 V-Star 250 good old trusty carburetors.

 

The Honda Phantom TA200 was in production from 2001 until the beginning of 2010. It was only sold in Thailand and for some small amount of units in Australia - where it was called the Honda Shadow TA200. With that the worldwide base for spare-part manufacturing is very very small. On the other hand the Kawasaki Boss BN175, which was originally a Bajaj Eliminator BN175 which was sold in India in huge numbers and even today you would not have any problems finding the most difficult engine parts if you use a few Indian contacts... And yes, the Kawasaki Boss BN175 was a Indian manufactured motorcycle assembled in Thailand by a company called Tiger Motor... That was before Kawasaki together with Bajaj opened shop themselves in Thailand.

[Agusts]

As it happened a farang friend bought a new bike and wants to sell his old Suzuki Hayate 125 of 2011 with 67k kilometres on the clock. He used it only 6 months of each year when in LOS but made a lot of long trips. 

 

Did some reading and this is a good bike, I think that year they had fuel injection (not sure), but these are not air cooled (is that a minus !?)  , not flat foot-floor, but very close and low middle hump, good reviews and at least I know he had it from new and looked after it with services and parts from Suzuki dealer and no major accidents (well, I hope, I don't know him that long ... ! lol ). He loved that bike so it was always in top shape and reliable for long trips.

 

He says the middle bearing on the back needs changing, says costs about 1000 baht for the little noise that makes. My question is if a scooter had it's time after 67k kilometres and now is the time for things to go wrong every day with new repairs and costs to come.... ! ?

 

 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Agusts

[papa al]

Maybe.

Maybe not.

!?

"middle bearing in the back."

Wheel bearing?

 

[Agusts]

41 minutes ago, papa al said:

Maybe.

Maybe not.

!?

"middle bearing in the back."

Wheel bearing?

 

I think that is one of the bunch of bearings between the auto clutch system and the back wheel, is that the transmission on scooters that transfer power to the wheel...! 

[Richard-BKK]

Maybe swingarm pivot bearing... But 1,000 THB for a bearing replacement is very high....

Edited May 3, 2017 by Richard-BKK

[Rdrokit]

Keep renting and save your money so you can buy a proper cruiser.

[Agusts]

Well, I am trying to save money by not renting and throwing 3k or 4k away every months by considering this bike.

 

It is a very well-maintained bike, I just wonder if 67,000 km is a bit too much for this tiny engine and if it is time for a re-built soon... !?

 

People say for a small engine bike, going fast on long drives, is actually not a good thing (stress the engine), on the other hand a lot of stop and start city traffic is also not good for a bike (or car for that matter), so it's a bit confusing.

 

 

[papa al]

How much is he asking?

for a 6-years old (-)

Suzuki (-)scooter 

67Kkm(-)

undiagnosed bearing problem.(-)

5000baht maybe?

[couple months rent pays for it]

If smoking [check/rev]

costs ~B2200 for new piston/ rings/ hone job.

Buy the bike.

But don't pay too much.

Tell the guy papa al says 

it ain't worth much.

True.

Cash-in-hand.

Edited May 3, 2017 by papa al

[Rdrokit]

1 hour ago, Agusts said:

Well, I am trying to save money by not renting and throwing 3k or 4k away every months by considering this bike.

 

It is a very well-maintained bike, I just wonder if 67,000 km is a bit too much for this tiny engine and if it is time for a re-built soon... !?

 

People say for a small engine bike, going fast on long drives, is actually not a good thing (stress the engine), on the other hand a lot of stop and start city traffic is also not good for a bike (or car for that matter), so it's a bit confusing.

 

 

First you said your budget was 40,000 now you are talking 67,000. For 76,000 you could buy a new 250cc Stallion.

 

[Agusts]

The 67,000 is the kilometers on the odometer (not my budget), the firm price of this Suzuki Hayate scooter is 20k THB, no discount papa, I tried !!! lol

 

The problem was I could not see a single scooter on offer with such a mileage advertised (they are usually about 20k or 30k km), so it was hard to estimate the price. My friend rides all over, very frequently, hence such a high mileage - or is it "kilometrage" .... !  But I know it's genuine mileage while others could be tampered with. 

 

It has 67,000 kilometers but it was very well maintained, I just hope the engine lasts and it won't cost a lot to maintain it for a bit longer.

 

P.S. He said he has changed the other two bearings not long ago as they were faulty, so only the one, the middle, has an issue now, so it's kind of he is sure of the issue, but who knows what they find when it is opened.... 

 

[Rdrokit]

Sorry about the budget misunderstanding. Take a look at craiglist as there are many bikes in the 30-40,000 baht range. 150cc PCXs and some 150cc Yamaha Exciters, 150cc Suzuki Raider and even a 200cc Honda Phantom. Remember the price advertised is the asking price so do some negotiating.

[Richard-BKK]

The Suzuki Hayate 125 is an excellent scooter, and when it had it’s regular maintenance appointments the engine could last forever.

 

I’m still puzzled about the amazing price of the bearing replacement, 1000 THB is a lot of money. This can mean two things, the scooter needs more than just a bearing replacement. Or second idea is that the owner never ever did service on the scoot and now noticed some free-play on an axle… and for that the engine needs to be rebuild and that would maybe justify the high service price.

 

But if the bearing on an axle is so far gone that you can feel or notice free-play. The engine probably needs more that just a replacement bearing… And in that case the 1000 THB was likely a quotation by a “Suzuki” mechanic as an expected repair cost, which likely will be higher as in cases with maintenance neglect one failure (a bearing) will have consequences for other engine parts…

[papa al]

If your friend can sell this old Suzuki to someone else for 20KB,

papa would be truly shocked.

10K

... final offer.

Edited May 4, 2017 by papa al

[Agusts]

17 hours ago, Richard-BKK said:

The Suzuki Hayate 125 is an excellent scooter, and when it had it’s regular maintenance appointments the engine could last forever.

 

I’m still puzzled about the amazing price of the bearing replacement, 1000 THB is a lot of money. This can mean two things, the scooter needs more than just a bearing replacement. Or second idea is that the owner never ever did service on the scoot and now noticed some free-play on an axle… and for that the engine needs to be rebuild and that would maybe justify the high service price.

 

But if the bearing on an axle is so far gone that you can feel or notice free-play. The engine probably needs more that just a replacement bearing… And in that case the 1000 THB was likely a quotation by a “Suzuki” mechanic as an expected repair cost, which likely will be higher as in cases with maintenance neglect one failure (a bearing) will have consequences for other engine parts…

 

I think it is one of these bearings, the middle one :

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Agusts

[papa al]

If it is centre bearing bad, maybe metal fragments floating around & into other 2 bearings.

Why didn't he change all three when open before?

Maybe not such a great maintenance ethic after all.

 

 

 

[Agusts]

Yes, I wondered that too, need to open and find out how everything is in there. I think he mentioned the last time they opened they checked and said the middle one is fine and hence did not change it (so thinks that is the culprit). He says there is no need for any repair right now, only very faint slight noise occasionally and that is very hard to hear at all and it can work and stay like this for months or a year and not get worse... !  

 

Anyway, we agreed on a slightly lower price, so I am going to buy this bike, let's keep fingers crossed that it will serve me well. 

 

Now question about green book transfer that I will ask in another thread....

[Richard-BKK]

If a bearing start making any noise, it is already too late… after noticing any noise a mechanic can only do damage control… the longer you wait the more expensive and the more parts need to be replaced...

[Agusts]

I got the bike last night, I went for a ride around town, I must say, it has a couple of issues that I didn't expect.

 

The main one is that the bike was not used 3 or 4 months, if that matter, now it has problem idling, the throttle is turned up a bit (from under the handle) but it still shuts down at traffic light or whenever is stopped while the throttle is released (if moving it is okay). Start okay from cold but then starts badly after it cuts out once. I also feel the clutch stuttering when you start moving from stationary, so that needs to be looked at, maybe the clutch is causing the idling issue as well (!?), other than that I read the idling issue on EFi engine could be due to petrol filter or pump, check gas tank can breath (filled up today), adjust valve clearance, after that look at EFi.  

 

Off to mechanic tomorrow to see what they say, let's hope it is fixed easily....

 

 

 

[Rdrokit]

If it is an EFI engine look at the oxygen sensor first.

[Agusts]

1 hour ago, Rdrokit said:

If it is an EFI engine look at the oxygen sensor first.

 

Yes, I read about that too, will ask the mechanic to check it as well...

[Agusts]

Well, it couldn't get any worse I guess, while going up the hill from Patong to Phuket town I noticed the bike has really no power, struggled badly, at Suzuki shop nobody speaks English, the lady receptionists knows a few words but nothing technical or about bikes !

 

The mechanic not helpful and no English at all, he checked the EFi with connecting that little gadget and said it's okay - Oxygen Sensor also okay according to him and from that check (I assume it shows up as a fault there). He was very suspicious about the petrol in the tank, smelling it a lot etc., so replaced that, no good (I tried to say previous owner told me he had added a little EFi cleaning liquid to sort out bad idling, but I had put 3.5 liter of engine on top, so shouldn't really be that, couldn't communicate this of course). My friend said he always used 95, but I always put 91 - I really don't think 95 (sometimes with this E20) is any good for these old scooters, even though I can see both 91 & 95 marked on the Thai manual, it says 91 on the tank ! ). 

 

Then I said could he check the fuel pump and filter, he didn't like my suggestions but he angrily went ahead and replaced those with new (I never wanted replacement, but just checking), no difference - he said old ones were fine, so why replace.... !?

 

So I said how about valve clearance adjustment, no can do, he said the engine is busted and need to be opened,... !!!??? First said two days then 4 days and who knows how much cost, he said must leave the bike and we open and find out. I said open while I am here to see what needs doing, no can do, "you go, we call" or come back tomorrow.

 

Some lessons to be learned, I don't know if my so called friend knew about this or not, or even if the engine is really faulty, but so far not so good (we even haven't got to the clutch and transmission yet.... !)... I don't know if this bike worth all the hassle and money, but my advice now is; "Walk away from 67k kilometer scooter, unless you are a mechanic..."  (even if it's from a friend). 

 

Any suggestions for a good mechanic in Patong (that at least knows a few techy terms in English) for future reference ... !? 

 

 

 

[Richard-BKK]

First, I hope you not surprised that the engine has to be opened – you knew that the moment that bearing was faulty.

 

Likely a gasket is leaking, of worse you have problems with the piston rings…

 

For fuel, the Suzuki Hayate 135 DCP-FI (fuel-injection) works fine with RON91 E20 fuel, RON95 fuel I would not recommend for a motorcycle like the Hayate 125 (with a compression ratio of 9.6:1) as the octane level in the fuel can prevent the fuel from optimal combustion and cause carbon built-up in the exhaust system… The performance issue can also be related to this, it’s possible that due to carbon built up the exhaust valve is unable to fully close…

 

No motorcycle mechanic would like to open an engine with a customer looking over its shoulder. Imagine yourself doing some precision work that needs some concentration and your wife is standing next to you and asking what is that and what it does, that part is black is that normal… etc etc…

 

As I previous said, the 1000 THB was weird cost for a bearing repair, and if your engine needs to be opened you look probably at 3000 THB…

Edited May 18, 2017 by Richard-BKK