Explain transformer or other options

[Crossy]

Looking at the poles. I see 3 lower (220V) wires, that could be 2 of 3 phases or (more worrying) a 3-phase, 3-wire system. The only way to tell would be to measure voltages.

[Jdietz]

Oh and a good thing that they won't let you use the upper three wires, though it will certainly solve your low voltage issue..

[RichCor]

@tattoodrob, sorry to ask for this but can you try taking some sharp/clear photos of some items?

 

Having some trouble discerning how the Main Breaker is wired.

Specifically, how the MAINS run to the Safe-T-Cut, return and break out to three cables into the Main Breaker, and how the NEUTRALS and GROUNDS are terminated (especially the return wire for breaker #2, and the Red and Blue wires).

 

A little concerned about the NEUTRALS (N) connections.

 

So if you can take some nice sharp/clear photos of numbered areas 

 

1. Both of the Neutral and Ground Bus Bar Terminal Connectors with connected wires

2. Where the MAINS LIVE comes in, and where the Safe-T-Cut return LIVE gets split into three wires

3. Where the three LIVE wires get attached to the top main breaker

4. an overall straight-on photo of the CU.

 

IF possible please try to light up the area (so the text labels are sharp/clear in each photo)

 

Oh, and please, please, please be very careful. Don't touch any of the wires or bare metal.

 

Edited May 13, 2017 by RichCor
spelling

[wayned]

9 hours ago, Crossy said:

Looking at the poles. I see 3 lower (220V) wires, that could be 2 of 3 phases or (more worrying) a 3-phase, 3-wire system. The only way to tell would be to measure voltages.

I saw that also.  Around where I live PEA have some really strange hookups in the small villages.  They actually have single and two phase transformers that are round and look like small oil drums.. It could be that the xformer that is 100 meters away is one of them.  A picture of the transformer would be nice.. I'd go take a look myself, but Hua Hin is 400 kilometers from me and I would have to pass through "sin city" to get there., god forbid!

 

[RichCor]

19 hours ago, Crossy said:

Looking at the poles. I see 3 lower (220V) wires, that could be 2 of 3 phases or (more worrying) a 3-phase, 3-wire system. The only way to tell would be to measure voltages.

 

9 hours ago, wayned said:

I saw that also.  Around where I live PEA have some really strange hookups in the small villages.  They actually have single and two phase transformers that are round and look like small oil drums.. It could be that the xformer that is 100 meters away is one of them.  A picture of the transformer would be nice.. I'd go take a look myself, but Hua Hin is 400 kilometers from me and I would have to pass through "sin city" to get there., god forbid!

 

 

 

Providing only 2-phase service would go a long way in explaining why 3-phase wasn't available an option.

 

So, now I wonder if 2-phase IS an option.    

[Crossy]

2 minutes ago, RichCor said:

Providing only 2-phase service would go a long way in explaining why 3-phase wasn't available an option.

So, now I wonder if 2-phase IS an option.    

 

It could well be.

 

BUT

 

We need to know what that service actually is and without some measurements we're stuffed.

 

Our OP has a 3-phase board. If those wires are two phases of a 3-phase transformer then it may be possible for him to pay PEA to run the 3rd phase along the road and actually get a 3-phase supply for a relatively nominal fee (need that photo of the transformer). He would need a 3-phase Safe-T-Cut of course. But still cheaper than his own transformer.

 

Again, we need measurements of the supply off-load, if it's 200V before he starts then going 3-phase may not help much.

[tattoodrob]

i think sent pics of safe t cut before but dont know how to open it !.isnt it a sealed unit and can find specs of its  internals online??

my electric bill ranges from around 6000 to 8000 depending on how many people stay that month.....mostly 6000 bt.

i have a pool so a few thousand used  for that pump i guess.

Also cctv security system is on all the time,4 cameras.

I did ask the sparky when house built that will have ground rod and lines earthed and after paid him then checked and asked him again that i have ground rod  and he said i do but that doesnt mean i really have one but i hope i do.

i think i also remember seeing green earth lines to all sockets when being built but dont know where they end up.

Swim pool pump room has another small breaker box.

so what do you guys think about the AVR..safe to buy and install between safe t cut and breaker box?

As for ground lines then i think i seen in the roof some green wires going around so i guess he just linked them all up but actually im thinking they were probably the ground lines for the hot water heater boxes as have all of them in the roof..if i had thought about it before i built house then should have just got one central big boiler unit but i didnt know would have electric supply problem and also dont like idea of too much water pipes running around the roof....already had one pipe burst off a heater box and was lucky i was home otherwise would have been a disaster as pump was pushing that water out like crazy!

 

 

 

[Crossy]

We need to see how the Safe-T-Cut is wired, is there a MEN link. It's not sealed (how would one connect it up) but if you can't find the screw (look on the bottom) ...

 

You can likely safely install an AVR, and it will certainly improve matters, but as an engineer I want to know what I'm fixing before I fix it.

 

We still don't know what caused your water pipe issue, that is still a worry for me.

[tattoodrob]

13 hours ago, wayned said:

I saw that also.  Around where I live PEA have some really strange hookups in the small villages.  They actually have single and two phase transformers that are round and look like small oil drums.. It could be that the xformer that is 100 meters away is one of them.  A picture of the transformer would be nice.. I'd go take a look myself, but Hua Hin is 400 kilometers from me and I would have to pass through "sin city" to get there., god forbid!

 

Transformer is old looking and yes like an oil drum shape.....

 

[tattoodrob]

3 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

It could well be.

 

BUT

 

We need to know what that service actually is and without some measurements we're stuffed.

 

Our OP has a 3-phase board. If those wires are two phases of a 3-phase transformer then it may be possible for him to pay PEA to run the 3rd phase along the road and actually get a 3-phase supply for a relatively nominal fee (need that photo of the transformer). He would need a 3-phase Safe-T-Cut of course. But still cheaper than his own transformer.

 

Again, we need measurements of the supply off-load, if it's 200V before he starts then going 3-phase may not help much.

the only option from PEA offered is to buy the transformer from them,my wife asked if any other way can get more power and she was told there isnt.....so me asking them again for other option wont help me as they will not do it.

[Crossy]

You are out of options then.

 

Local transformer or AVR. Up2U.

 

Our PEA are very good at saying "no" until you provide them with an alternative solution, but you must know (or look like you know) what you're talking about.

[tattoodrob]

7 minutes ago, Crossy said:

We need to see how the Safe-T-Cut is wired, is there a MEN link. It's not sealed (how would one connect it up) but if you can't find the screw (look on the bottom) ...

 

You can likely safely install an AVR, and it will certainly improve matters, but as an engineer I want to know what I'm fixing before I fix it.

 

We still don't know what caused your water pipe issue, that is still a worry for me.

yes i dont like that i had that issue but any sparky we asked then dont know.....but only happened when power cut so is strange as thats why i thought must be a surge somewhere when it happened and told the PEA come check but they said not there fault.

i also used to leave the jacuzzi plugged in and now dont.

the flexible metal water pipe was touching the jacuzzi metal frame and melted slightly and stuck together so maybe jacuzzi not earthed or frame is the earth!!

[tattoodrob]

[Crossy]

Without seeing it I can only guess. You do have a MEN link in the Safe-T-Cut (guess) but don't have a local rod (guess). The PEA failure was an open neutral (guess), your load found a path to earth via the grounded heater, the jacuzzi metalwork and the flexi (which naturally got hot). PEA fixed the iffy neutral (which would have caused anyone who was not MEN to lose power entirely) and everyone is happy.

 

Of course, that supply neutral could still be open and your supply is returning through some fortuitous ground path, which would (among other things) cause volt drop issues. It would NOT cause the Safe-T-Cut to trip as everything is happening on the supply side.

 

Not wishing to frighten you, but a whole row of cottages in the UK blew up a few years back due to an open neutral and MEN (it's called PME in the UK). Unfortunately the neutral current found its way back via the gas pipe, with predictable results.

 

[tattoodrob]

17 minutes ago, Crossy said:

You are out of options then.

 

Local transformer or AVR. Up2U.

 

Our PEA are very good at saying "no" until you provide them with an alternative solution, but you must know (or look like you know) what you're talking about.

Is AVR safe as other poster was saying could possibly be unsafe on my wires if I install it!

[Crossy]

Just now, tattoodrob said:

Is AVR safe as other poster was saying could possibly be unsafe on my wires if I install it!

 

The wires you showed going from your meter look like 16mm² or bigger, on a 63A incomer that's no issue whatever.

[tattoodrob]

4 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Without seeing it I can only guess. You do have a MEN link in the Safe-T-Cut (guess) but don't have a local rod (guess). The PEA failure was an open neutral (guess), your load found a path to earth via the grounded heater, the jacuzzi metalwork and the flexi (which naturally got hot). PEA fixed the iffy neutral (which would have caused anyone who was not MEN to lose power entirely) and everyone is happy.

 

Of course, that supply neutral could still be open and your supply is returning through some fortuitous ground path, which would (among other things) cause volt drop issues. It would NOT cause the Safe-T-Cut to trip as everything is happening on the supply side.

 

Not wishing to frighten you, but a whole row of cottages in the UK blew up a few years back due to an open neutral and MEN (it's called PME in the UK). Unfortunately the neutral current found its way back via the gas pipe, with predictable results.

 

Sorry I don't know or understand what the MEN is or does!

as no electricians here I can find have any In depth knowledge then when have problems they don't know what to do if isn't obvious hence why I'm using this forum as self help way,ever since house built 5 years then power not been great so always been an issue but now my house has more guests more often then is more noticeable as usually I wouldn't have  4 air con etc at same time but now often do otherwise would just put up with it as have done for last 4 years up,my aircons are shit at cooling the rooms as bedroom big and air con units small,as didn't expect to be used often in guest rooms so I was thinking to upgrade them but then thought about my power issues so would be pointless to upgrade if not enough power now to run them fully so I hope that with an AVR then when I have all air cons on then will work better and so room cooler for the guests and hopefully lights not dim when some one has a shower while air cons all on.......the usage will not be like that all month but just some days per month!

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, tattoodrob said:

Sorry I don't know or understand what the MEN is or does!

 

Exactly. We DO know, but without details of what you have (i.e. decent photos of the internals) we are in the dark.

 

Install the AVR, it cannot do any harm.

 

A thought, if you disconnect the water pipes from the jacuzzi do the lights stay on? (yes, I'm serious)

[tattoodrob]

Thanks Crossy  for all the info, I will try the Avr as is only real option I have.

i can take more pics of inside my breaker box if that helps as can use my wife's iPad as camera much clearer than my laptop.

ive never disconnected the water pipes that run to the jacuzz,they under the jacuzzi and have separate cold and hot water supply,I turned off the hot water supply pipe to the jacuzzi as was worried that was an issue when using it but anyway heater supplies hot water to shower  in the room too so is often on....I also unplug it now when not used instead of always leaving plugged in......what light would stay on if i disconnect pipes,totally confused now haha.....jacuzzi has been used many times since the last issue with the burning and I had the rcd fitted to help stop anyone dying!! ......some people used the jacuzzi not long ago and rcd did trip but I'm not sure they were splashing about in it and water got on plug as plug is on The wall under jacuzzi plastic frame which is usually siliconed to wall so water can't splash but now I cant silicone  it as have to pull jacuzzi away from the wall each time to take out plug so I hope that was the issue,it tripped the rcd twice then was ok,I was worried the people dead in my jacuzzi......but weren't and I didn't ask them about it as maybe they were shagging in it ,who knows but had been used many times before that time and since and been ok

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, tattoodrob said:

what light would stay on if i disconnect pipes

 

The house lights

 

I'm just concerned that your entire house might be using the jacuzzi pipes as the supply return.

 

Don't worry.

[tattoodrob]

9 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

The house lights

 

I'm just concerned that your entire house might be using the jacuzzi pipes as the supply return.

 

Don't worry.

haha i dont think so ,i leave jacuzzi  mostly unplugged and lights stay on and ive touched the pipes many times and still here.

[tattoodrob]

The metal  flexi hoses in the roof from water heater to jacuzzi/showers were also burnt a bit and stuck to roof metal frame a bit if i remember correctly !!!!

[Golden Triangle]

I'm just loving this thread, I like tatoodrob know nothing about electricity, but the way you guys are helping him is just great, I shall be following this all the way to it's hopefully, satisfactory conclusion. Well done everyone.  

[Crossy]

53 minutes ago, tattoodrob said:

The metal  flexi hoses in the roof from water heater to jacuzzi/showers were also burnt a bit and stuck to roof metal frame a bit if i remember correctly !!!!

 

Rob, where are you Mate, you need a visit.

[Ahab]

Turn off the A/C when you take a shower.

[tattoodrob]

3 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Rob, where are you Mate, you need a visit.

Pranburi near Hua Hin.the burnt hoses in the roof were at same time as those power cuts....long time ago now !

i definitely need a visit haha..........sparky i usually use doesnt even pick up his phone last 4 days now as want him to wire in the avr after i buy it,hope he has seen one before..interested to know that.

[tattoodrob]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Turn off the A/C when you take a shower.

i sweat already when come out the shower !!!! but anyway its not a problem at all when just my family here on a normal day..when i have guests stay in all my rooms then can be.....i dont really want to have to say to everyone please turn off your aircons each time they shower and problem is also air cons dont work to full ability when all on in my house now so hard to cool the rooms on a scorching hot and humid day......this why i look for a solution without the crazy transformer price i been quoted...thanks for your helpful input.

[tattoodrob]

Quick Update: waiting for electrician to wire it in......one electrician was booked today to come look/quote but after the Mrs sent him pic of AVR he then said to her later its no good for  one phase and  and no good to use in a house so cancelled  his appointment to quote....waiting for next electrician now.

 

[Crossy]

7 hours ago, tattoodrob said:

Quick Update: waiting for electrician to wire it in......one electrician was booked today to come look/quote but after the Mrs sent him pic of AVR he then said to her later its no good for  one phase and  and no good to use in a house so cancelled  his appointment to quote....waiting for next electrician now.

 

Better post a photo of the beast, just in case

 

[tattoodrob]

20000 kva......looks like has switch for direct line and AVS,2 breakers....good i can swith to Direct Line when no guests.