Leading Hamas official says no softened stance towards Israel

[webfact]

Leading Hamas official says no softened stance towards Israel

By Nidal al-Mughrabi

REUTERS

 

FILE PHOTO: Veteran Hamas strategist Mahmoud Al-Zahar gestures during an interview with Reuters at his house in Gaza City April 29, 2014. REUTERS/Suhaib Salem

 

GAZA (Reuters) - One of Hamas's most senior officials said on Wednesday a document published by the Islamist Palestinian group last week was not a substitute for its founding charter, which advocates Israel's destruction.

 

Speaking in Gaza City, Mahmoud al-Zahar, a regular critic of Israel, said the political policy document announced in Qatar on May 1 by Hamas's outgoing chief Khaled Meshaal did not contradict its founding covenant, published in 1988.

 

Trailed for weeks by Hamas officials, the document appeared to be an attempt to soften the group's language towards Israel. But it still called for "the liberation of all of historical Palestine", said armed resistance was a means to achieve that goal, and did not recognise Israel's right to exist.

 

"The pledge Hamas made before God was to liberate all of Palestine," Zahar said on Wednesday. "The charter is the core of (Hamas's) position and the mechanism of this position is the document."

 

Many Western countries classify Hamas as a terrorist group over its failure to renounce violence, recognise Israel's right to exist, and accept existing interim Israeli-Palestinian peace agreements.

 

In its new document, Hamas said it agrees to a transitional Palestinian state within frontiers pre-dating the 1967 Middle East war but continues to oppose recognising Israel's right to exist and backs an armed struggle.

 

Western-backed Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who heads the rival Fatah movement that controls the Israeli-occupied West Bank, recognises Israel and seeks a final peace agreement based on those lines.

 

U.S. President Donald Trump will meet Abbas and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu when he visits the region later this month, and a summit to restart peace talks stalled since 2014 has been mentioned in media reports.

 

Zahar denied that Hamas was trying to align itself with Fatah's position.

 

"When people say that Hamas has accepted the 1967 borders, like others, it is an offence to us," he said.

 

"We have reaffirmed the unchanging constant principles that we do not recognise Israel; we do not recognise the land occupied in 1948 as belonging to Israel and we do not recognise that the people who came here (Jews) own this land.

 

"Therefore, there is no contradiction between what we said in the document and the pledge we have made to God in our (original) charter," Zahar added.

 

On Sunday, Netanyahu symbolically tossed Hamas's "hateful document" into a waste paper bin and said the group was trying to fool the world.

 

(Editing by Ori Lewis and Catherine Evans)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-05-11

[ezzra]

And when the next war will break out with thousands of dead and destruction the world will be accusing Israel all over again for being the aggressor when all they do is go against a huge army of terrorists who deny their rights to exist and live in peace in the land of their forefathers since biblical times....

[Elfin]

4 hours ago, ezzra said:

a huge army of terrorists who deny their rights to exist and live in peace in the land of their forefathers since biblical times....

A huge army Ezra? You are exagerating again both in numbers, and what constitutes an army-Israel has all the (US supplied) weapons remember.

You are also using the "Real estate agent in the sky" argument as well for the European, Russian and US jews who are stealing Palestinian land so that they can live there part time.

 

BDS

Edited May 11, 2017 by Elfin

[Harveyg]

44 minutes ago, Elfin said:

A huge army Ezra? You are exagerating again both in numbers, and what constitutes an army-Israel has all the (US supplied) weapons remember.

You are also using the "Real estate agent in the sky" argument as well for the European, Russian and US jews who are stealing Palestinian land so that they can live there part time.

 

BDS

And what do you say about "who deny their rights to exist"?  Is that an exaggeration also?   Of course it isn't.   In that case if Ezzra is exagerating then it would seem your omission of the most important point is an exaggerated one. 

[Jingthing]

As I said on another thread that Bibi's assertion that the changed Hamas document is in no way a gesture towards peace with Israel was CORRECT. Evidence here that was indeed the case. No softening. 

[onthesoi]

Of course illegal squatting and constructions on Palistinian land are in no way denying the Palistinian 'right to exist' and Israelis are entirely peaceful even when executing an unarmed man dying on his back.....it's those pesky Palistinians with their annoying documents that are the real problem.

 

The delusional and entitled Israeli mindset is truly the laughing stock of the civilised world.

Edited May 11, 2017 by onthesoi

[Elfin]

1 hour ago, Harveyg said:

And what do you say about "who deny their rights to exist"?  Is that an exaggeration also?   Of course it isn't.   In that case if Ezzra is exagerating then it would seem your omission of the most important point is an exaggerated one. 

Of course the Israelis deny the right of the Palestinians to exist Harvey by seizing their lands, demolishing their homes, stealing or poisoning their water supplies, building a wall that devides their farms so they can not access their crops or shooting them at point blank range just to name few. This is happening every day Harvey.

Hamas should not soften its stance of resistance against the Israelis.

BDS

Edited May 11, 2017 by Elfin

[Scouse123]

1 hour ago, Elfin said:

Of course the Israelis deny the right of the Palestinians to exist Harvey by seizing their lands, demolishing their homes, stealing or poisoning their water supplies, building a wall that devides their farms so they can not access their crops or shooting them at point blank range just to name few. This is happening every day Harvey.

Hamas should not soften its stance of resistance against the Israelis.

BDS

 

A bit like the Muslims deny our right to live and exist at peace in the UK and continental Europe, eh?

 

By squatting on our lands, vast numbers of economic migrants that are not fleeing conflict, breeding terrorism in their mosques, which are allowed by the West's policy of ' freedom of worship '  refusing to integrate,refusing to accept the laws of a country are above THEIR LAWS OF ISLAM, bombing our tube stations and railways, bombing our aircraft so much so we have to get to the airport 5 and 6 hours earlier to clear security just to exercise our right to travel. Bombing our airports. Raping  and torturing underage white girls and boys in their ' host country with all our laws of tolerance '  such as the UK and Sweden.So called ' moderate Muslims ' who refuse to condemn or disassociate themselves from these scum and indeed harbour them!

 

Same as always, when the Muslims have the upper hand, they are out there banging the drum about their self entitlement! When they don't get their way through the barrel of a gun, a bomb, and lose in conflict they start, they run to the UN screaming persecution against them. They make me puke!

 

Alright then, let's get on with stoning women for adultery, throwing gays off tall buildings, murdering Christians in Muslim lands for no other reason than they are Christian, honour killings, and all the rest of the garbage from the middle ages. Let's get back to cleaning our ass on a stone and washing it in a stream after using it as a toilet. Great idea!

 

Those whinging about the backing of Israel by the US, UK, and Europe need to think about who backs the terrorists in Gaza etc, how about every Muslim country in the region and neighbourhood!!

 

The Muslims cannot even find peace and harmony among themselves or decide which branch of Islam is the true one or accept any other God that isn't specifically theirs.It is a bigoted, despicable act to bring up your children on hatred and extremism such as this.

 

Long live Israel.

[Jingthing]

The political ideology of Zionism did not evolve based on any antipathy towards Muslim people and/or Arabs. Palestinian Arab identity is much more recent than the Zionist movement. Zionism is about establishing a nation state homeland where Jewish people can enjoy political self determination. It is not about specific final borders. 

Yes, the inconvenient reality, is that the the most obvious land for the well justified Zionist ideology to become reality was in land (indisputably the ancient homeland of the Jews)  where there were a lot of Arab people already living. 

Both sides have legitimacy in their narratives.

Thus the seemingly endless conflict.

 

Historically in the diaspora, Jews have been much more severely oppressed in Christian majority nations than Muslim ones. Zionism developed largely in Christian majority nations based on the correct observation that life in the diaspora for Jews almost always involved oppression, persecution, discrimination, expulsions, and genocide. People can argue if it was the best answer but it was certainly based on logic and historical reality. 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Jingthing

[onthesoi]

18 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

 

A bit like the Muslims deny our right to live and exist at peace in the UK and continental Europe, eh?

 

By squatting on our lands, vast numbers of economic migrants that are not fleeing conflict, breeding terrorism in their mosques, which are allowed by the West's policy of ' freedom of worship '  refusing to integrate,refusing to accept the laws of a country are above THEIR LAWS OF ISLAM, bombing our tube stations and railways, bombing our aircraft so much so we have to get to the airport 5 and 6 hours earlier to clear security just to exercise our right to travel. Bombing our airports. Raping  and torturing underage white girls and boys in their ' host country with all our laws of tolerance '  such as the UK and Sweden.So called ' moderate Muslims ' who refuse to condemn or disassociate themselves from these scum and indeed harbour them!

 

Same as always, when the Muslims have the upper hand, they are out there banging the drum about their self entitlement! When they don't get their way through the barrel of a gun, a bomb, and lose in conflict they start, they run to the UN screaming persecution against them. They make me puke!

 

Alright then, let's get on with stoning women for adultery, throwing gays off tall buildings, murdering Christians in Muslim lands for no other reason than they are Christian, honour killings, and all the rest of the garbage from the middle ages. Let's get back to cleaning our ass on a stone and washing it in a stream after using it as a toilet. Great idea!

 

Those whinging about the backing of Israel by the US, UK, and Europe need to think about who backs the terrorists in Gaza etc, how about every Muslim country in the region and neighbourhood!!

 

The Muslims cannot even find peace and harmony among themselves or decide which branch of Islam is the true one or accept any other God that isn't specifically theirs.It is a bigoted, despicable act to bring up your children on hatred and extremism such as this.

 

Long live Israel.

Off topic troll ...this thread is about Israel not the uk or europe.

[onthesoi]

15 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The political ideology of Zionism did not evolve based on any antipathy towards Muslim people and/or Arabs. Palestinian Arab identity is much more recent than the Zionist movement. Zionism is about establishing a nation state homeland where Jewish people can enjoy political self determination. It is not about specific final borders. 

Yes, the inconvenient reality, is that the the most obvious land for the well justified Zionist ideology to become reality was in land (indisputably the ancient homeland of the Jews)  where there were a lot of Arab people already living. 

Both sides have legitimacy in their narratives.

Thus the seemingly endless conflict.

 

Historically in the diaspora, Jews have been much more severely oppressed in Christian majority nations than Muslim ones. Zionism developed largely in Christian majority nations based on the correct observation that life in the diaspora for Jews almost always involved oppression, persecution, discrimination, expulsions, and genocide. People can argue if it was the best answer but it was certainly based on logic and historical reality. 

 

Just because the jews lived their thousands of years ago, it doesnt mean they have the right to steal land from those currently living there, if that were the case the entire planet would quickly decend into chaos, for eg how about if native Amercicans or Aus. Abos who have a more recent and solid basis for going on a land grab in 'their' respective countries, how do you think that would play out?

 

& fyi ..crying victim doesn't win you any special land stealing rights either.

 

As I said before, the delusional and entitled Israeli mindset is truly the laughing stock of the civilised world.

[Scouse123]

It's about peoples rights to live in peace and harmony throughout the World.

Its about not being deemed entitled to all and everything by just saying 'I am a Muslim ' this is my ancestral lands. The guys on the lands in recent times used to be Bedoiun nomads with no fixed abode.

It's the Israelis that have made a success of this once barren inhospitable place they call home. It is they who have put in the infrastructure to make a success of it

We do not hear the Israelis saying they are committed to the extermination and obliteration of the Palestinians.





Sent from my SM-A500F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[khunken]

17 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

It's about peoples rights to live in peace and harmony throughout the World.

Its about not being deemed entitled to all and everything by just saying 'I am a Muslim ' this is my ancestral lands. The guys on the lands in recent times used to be Bedoiun nomads with no fixed abode.

It's the Israelis that have made a success of this once barren inhospitable place they call home. It is they who have put in the infrastructure to make a success of it

We do not hear the Israelis saying they are committed to the extermination and obliteration of the Palestinians.





Sent from my SM-A500F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Not committed to the Palestinians' extermination but certainly committed to preventing them from forming their own country and living as better than third-class citizens under occupation.

 

1 hour ago, Scouse123 said:

 

A bit like the Muslims deny our right to live and exist at peace in the UK and continental Europe, eh?

 

By squatting on our lands, vast numbers of economic migrants that are not fleeing conflict, breeding terrorism in their mosques, which are allowed by the West's policy of ' freedom of worship '  refusing to integrate,refusing to accept the laws of a country are above THEIR LAWS OF ISLAM, bombing our tube stations and railways, bombing our aircraft so much so we have to get to the airport 5 and 6 hours earlier to clear security just to exercise our right to travel. Bombing our airports. Raping  and torturing underage white girls and boys in their ' host country with all our laws of tolerance '  such as the UK and Sweden.So called ' moderate Muslims ' who refuse to condemn or disassociate themselves from these scum and indeed harbour them!

 

Same as always, when the Muslims have the upper hand, they are out there banging the drum about their self entitlement! When they don't get their way through the barrel of a gun, a bomb, and lose in conflict they start, they run to the UN screaming persecution against them. They make me puke!

 

Alright then, let's get on with stoning women for adultery, throwing gays off tall buildings, murdering Christians in Muslim lands for no other reason than they are Christian, honour killings, and all the rest of the garbage from the middle ages. Let's get back to cleaning our ass on a stone and washing it in a stream after using it as a toilet. Great idea!

 

Those whinging about the backing of Israel by the US, UK, and Europe need to think about who backs the terrorists in Gaza etc, how about every Muslim country in the region and neighbourhood!!

 

The Muslims cannot even find peace and harmony among themselves or decide which branch of Islam is the true one or accept any other God that isn't specifically theirs.It is a bigoted, despicable act to bring up your children on hatred and extremism such as this.

 

Long live Israel.

Typical AIPAC-like hatred.

 

Complete ignorance of the fact that the conflict is between Israel & the Palestinians, of whom a percentage are Christian and some secular, and NOT between Jews & Muslims.

 

Hamas is certainly right not to recognise Israel until Israel recognises a Palestinian state (& stops trying & failing to prevent other countries recognising the Palestinians). I don't agree with the destruction of Israel part, which is purely rhetorical as it is impossible to achieve.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by khunken
punctuation

[Scouse123]

It is in the Hamas manifesto.Hamas will not recognize Israel even if they get their Palestinian state. And the percentage of those that are Christian is very small in comparison to those that are Jewish and Muslim.

It is a Jewish- Muslim conflict no matter how you package it up.

Sent from my SM-A500F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Jingthing]

It is in the Hamas manifesto.Hamas will not recognize Israel even if they get their Palestinian state. And the percentage of those that are Christian is very small in comparison to those that are Jewish and Muslim.

It is a Jewish- Muslim conflict no matter how you package it up.

Sent from my SM-A500F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

I don't fully agree with either of you. It's not that simple.

[Morch]

For those trying to equate between the positions of Israel and the Hamas - if Israel held such views there would be no Palestinian Authority, no Hamas ruling in the Gaza Strip, Israeli prime ministers wouldn't even go through the charade of negotiations and so on and so forth.

 

Hamas took about four years to come up with this paper, which was supposedly to indicate a new approach. As things turned out it doesn't deliver change. There are various reasons for that, mostly to do with Palestinian politics, both within the Hamas and on the Hamas vs. Fatah front. 

 

The bottom line is this - Hamas did not alter its positions in any meaningful way, as far as things relate to conflict resolution.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, khunken said:

Not committed to the Palestinians' extermination but certainly committed to preventing them from forming their own country and living as better than third-class citizens under occupation.

 

Typical AIPAC-like hatred.

 

Complete ignorance of the fact that the conflict is between Israel & the Palestinians, of whom a percentage are Christian and some secular, and NOT between Jews & Muslims.

 

Hamas is certainly right not to recognise Israel until Israel recognises a Palestinian state (& stops trying & failing to prevent other countries recognising the Palestinians). I don't agree with the destruction of Israel part, which is purely rhetorical as it is impossible to achieve.

 

 

 

So if Israel isn't committed to the Palestinians extermination, perhaps drop the lame attempts to draw direct parallels where there are none. Enough real issues to go around without making up stuff. And of course, nothing in your post acknowledges the parts played by Palestinians and Arab countries in bringing about the Palestinians plight. Rejectionism didn't work out too good for them, terrorism did little to further their aims.

 

Ignorance how? Hamas is an Islamic movement. The percent of Christians, on either side, is marginal - and for the most part, they are not involved in violence. Even the Fatah, which is supposedly a secular movement, often uses religious sentiment, language and imagery.

 

Hamas's refusal to accept or recognize Israel is not conditional on anything. As for whether they have a "right" - depends how one views the PA's legitimacy and the status of previous agreements signed. If Hamas has the "right" to formulate policies on behalf of the Palestinians, that would certainly complicate things further - mostly for the Palestinians themselves. That you see something as rhetorical is immaterial - a nation is not obliged to deal with a hostile organization bent on violence and subscribing to its destruction, nor accept its demands.

 

[Scouse123]

Well said

Sent from my SM-A500F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[dexterm]

>>But it still called for "the liberation of all of historical Palestine", said armed resistance was a means to achieve that goal, and did not recognise Israel's right to exist.

 

I agree with 2 out of 3 of Hamas's acclamations. I believe that the current racist supremacist Zionist regime of Israel does not have the right to exist, and that one day Israel will revert to a normal secular western democratic style country where all races and religions are accepted equally. 

 

I can understand the armed struggle as legitimate frustrated resistance but ultimately it is a waste of lives, and plays right into Israelis' hands, whenever they seek a pretext to test weapons and indulge in more ethnic cleansing.

 

Much better is civil disobedience and passive resistance so that the world can see clearly that Israel is an apartheid country. It 100% occupies and controls the lives of Palestinians but does not give them equal civil rights.

[khunken]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

So if Israel isn't committed to the Palestinians extermination, perhaps drop the lame attempts to draw direct parallels where there are none. Enough real issues to go around without making up stuff. And of course, nothing in your post acknowledges the parts played by Palestinians and Arab countries in bringing about the Palestinians plight. Rejectionism didn't work out too good for them, terrorism did little to further their aims.

 

Ignorance how? Hamas is an Islamic movement. The percent of Christians, on either side, is marginal - and for the most part, they are not involved in violence. Even the Fatah, which is supposedly a secular movement, often uses religious sentiment, language and imagery.

 

Hamas's refusal to accept or recognize Israel is not conditional on anything. As for whether they have a "right" - depends how one views the PA's legitimacy and the status of previous agreements signed. If Hamas has the "right" to formulate policies on behalf of the Palestinians, that would certainly complicate things further - mostly for the Palestinians themselves. That you see something as rhetorical is immaterial - a nation is not obliged to deal with a hostile organization bent on violence and subscribing to its destruction, nor accept its demands.

 

I might have known you'd come up with your usual Isreali-supporting & Hamas-hating diatribe.

There are plenty of parallels between Hamas not recognising Israel and Israel going overboard to try and stop many countries from recognising the Palestinians. I don't write about the Palestinians and Arab countries failures as you and the Palestinian-haters do enough for both sides.

 

Hamas will continue to exist despite the efforts of Israel & the US for as long as the collective punishment of all of Gaza's citizens continues. Yes, Christians and secular people are a small (but nevertheless important) part of the Palestinians and the are subject to the same collective punishment & some of the bombing in Gaza. Israel is not obliged to deal with anything that might help the Palestinians because it is protected by US vetoes & threats of vetoes and has an openly hostile government to giving an inch - to paraphrase a certain NI politician.

 

The main reason Israel & the US ensures that there are no elections in Palestine is the fear that Hamas might win.

 

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.  Please stay on topic.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>But it still called for "the liberation of all of historical Palestine", said armed resistance was a means to achieve that goal, and did not recognise Israel's right to exist.

 

I agree with 2 out of 3 of Hamas's acclamations. I believe that the current racist supremacist Zionist regime of Israel does not have the right to exist, and that one day Israel will revert to a normal secular western democratic style country where all races and religions are accepted equally. 

 

I can understand the armed struggle as legitimate frustrated resistance but ultimately it is a waste of lives, and plays right into Israelis' hands, whenever they seek a pretext to test weapons and indulge in more ethnic cleansing.

 

Much better is civil disobedience and passive resistance so that the world can see clearly that Israel is an apartheid country. It 100% occupies and controls the lives of Palestinians but does not give them equal civil rights.

 

The expected propaganda stance.

 

Do continue to ignore that Hamas positions do not support a secular state, that their so-called "resistance" is not internationally acceptable, and that their charter (which the current position paper supplement, but does not replace) is, in fact an example of the things you pretend to rile against. The Hamas does not seek a country in which all live peacefully, but a country in which will exhibit Palestinian and Muslim dominance.

 

Obviously, discussing Hamas's actual positions is not likely to appear in your posts, as what you focus on, regardless of topic, is a single-minded barrage of anti-Israeli propaganda.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, khunken said:

I might have known you'd come up with your usual Isreali-supporting & Hamas-hating diatribe.

There are plenty of parallels between Hamas not recognising Israel and Israel going overboard to try and stop many countries from recognising the Palestinians. I don't write about the Palestinians and Arab countries failures as you and the Palestinian-haters do enough for both sides.

 

Hamas will continue to exist despite the efforts of Israel & the US for as long as the collective punishment of all of Gaza's citizens continues. Yes, Christians and secular people are a small (but nevertheless important) part of the Palestinians and the are subject to the same collective punishment & some of the bombing in Gaza. Israel is not obliged to deal with anything that might help the Palestinians because it is protected by US vetoes & threats of vetoes and has an openly hostile government to giving an inch - to paraphrase a certain NI politician.

 

The main reason Israel & the US ensures that there are no elections in Palestine is the fear that Hamas might win.

 

 

That's a nice story. Now kindly explain how the Palestinian Authority exists, how Hamas exists and why Israel is about to hold another round of negotiations with the Palestinians. There is not direct parallel. Israel, even including those political elements objecting to Palestinian statehood, carries on relationship with the Palestinian Authority, and to date, did not annex the Palestinian territories. Hamas position rejects negotiations with Israel, and refuses to acknowledge Israel as legitimate in any way. No halfway measures there.
 

I am far from being, as you claim, "a Palestinian hater". Those familiar with my posts would find no objections to Palestinian's right for self-determination, or anything of the sort. Similarly, there is not wholesale "defense" of Israel offered - and no wholesale denials regarding the Israeli occupation.

 

The reason that you do not talk about the roles Palestinians and Arab countries played in the mess, is simple - it does not fit the agenda. It complicates things. It robs the Palestinian narrative of it's catchy simplicity.

 

I never said anything about Hamas not continuing to exist, my posts were more related to Hamas's positions. As long as Hamas stays in a position of power, and does not alter his positions, significant positive developments will be put on hold. Refusing to acknowledge that Gaza's plight is, at least in part, a product of Hamas policies - is not a viable position.

 

Pray tell, what "nevertheless important part" do Christians play in the conflict? If possible, with reference to Hamas's rule in the Gaza Strip. As for "secular people", you'd have to be a wee bit more specific about who's referred to. Otherwise, these remain hollow statements.

 

Israel is obligated to deal with the Palestinian Authority, and does so on a daily basis. This relies on the Palestinian Authority not adopting a similar stance to Hamas's. With regard to Palestinian elections, the main force undermining the Hamas is the Fatah (led by Abbas). If Hamas was to win the next elections, under its current platform - hard to see what good will come of it. Not that such practicalities are of interest to some.

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

I do not distort your  posts, merely point out that they bear little connection to reality and a whole lot of connection to propaganda nonsense.

 

Neither the Hamas, nor the Fatah offer anything that resembles something which improves on the current state of things. At best, it turns the tables. At worst, another Syria.

 

Obviously, you are not going to discuss the OP, but go on pushing the usual propaganda catchphrases.

 

[dexterm]

12 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@dexterm

 

I do not distort your  posts, merely point out that they bear little connection to reality and a whole lot of connection to propaganda nonsense.

 

Neither the Hamas, nor the Fatah offer anything that resembles something which improves on the current state of things. At best, it turns the tables. At worst, another Syria.

 

Obviously, you are not going to discuss the OP, but go on pushing the usual propaganda catchphrases.

 

Sorry, forgot your usual pedantry. To quote from the OP in support of my previous posts:

"We have reaffirmed the unchanging constant principles that we do not recognise Israel; we do not recognise the land occupied in 1948 as belonging to Israel and we do not recognise that the people who came here (Jews) own this land."

 

I merely pointed out future courses of actions free of your usual "it is all in the too hard basket" obfuscations.

 

I tend to be in the half glass full brigade than the half empty. 

 

“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” ― Oscar Wilde

[khunken]

26 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

That's a nice story. Now kindly explain how the Palestinian Authority exists, how Hamas exists and why Israel is about to hold another round of negotiations with the Palestinians. There is not direct parallel. Israel, even including those political elements objecting to Palestinian statehood, carries on relationship with the Palestinian Authority, and to date, did not annex the Palestinian territories. Hamas position rejects negotiations with Israel, and refuses to acknowledge Israel as legitimate in any way. No halfway measures there.
 

I am far from being, as you claim, "a Palestinian hater". Those familiar with my posts would find no objections to Palestinian's right for self-determination, or anything of the sort. Similarly, there is not wholesale "defense" of Israel offered - and no wholesale denials regarding the Israeli occupation.

 

The reason that you do not talk about the roles Palestinians and Arab countries played in the mess, is simple - it does not fit the agenda. It complicates things. It robs the Palestinian narrative of it's catchy simplicity.

 

I never said anything about Hamas not continuing to exist, my posts were more related to Hamas's positions. As long as Hamas stays in a position of power, and does not alter his positions, significant positive developments will be put on hold. Refusing to acknowledge that Gaza's plight is, at least in part, a product of Hamas policies - is not a viable position.

 

Pray tell, what "nevertheless important part" do Christians play in the conflict? If possible, with reference to Hamas's rule in the Gaza Strip. As for "secular people", you'd have to be a wee bit more specific about who's referred to. Otherwise, these remain hollow statements.

 

Israel is obligated to deal with the Palestinian Authority, and does so on a daily basis. This relies on the Palestinian Authority not adopting a similar stance to Hamas's. With regard to Palestinian elections, the main force undermining the Hamas is the Fatah (led by Abbas). If Hamas was to win the next elections, under its current platform - hard to see what good will come of it. Not that such practicalities are of interest to some.

Hamas is a political, social organisation with a military wing. It exists only because Israel would have to carpet bomb Gaza and parts of (what's left of) the Palestinian territories to get rid of it. There are surely elements within Israel which would love to do that but it would be a step too far for moderates around the world. So they continue to bump off those individuals they don't like.

 

I see you like to twist my post as well as Dexterm's. I said that Christians & seculars (PLFP members & supporters) are important - not an important part. They are humans suffering collective punishment & all citizens of Gaza are in the same Israeli racist boat.

 

The PA is allowed to exist as long as it does Israel's & the US's bidding. Oh and there are Christians within the PA too - do you just toss them out too?

 

BTW when prisoner exchanges take place, Israel & Hamas do have to talk - through intermediaries. What a pity that they can't continue those talks - it's the not give an inch that I referred to earlier. Just like in NI, Hamas is a part of the problem but unfortunately there's no effort on the US's behalf (Like the UK did in NI) to make Israel accept an independent negotiator or panel.

Edited May 11, 2017 by khunken

[Morch]

@dexterm

 

As you very well know, I never used the phrase you repeatedly allude to me, that's more of your dishonest posting style. I've never even expressed the sentiment, as such. But do talk about obfuscations....

 

The half-glass-full nonsense? No. Only when it suits your current argument. Nothing which casts positively on Israel is regarded as half-glass-full by you. On the other hand, anything which might be interpreted or presented negatively, is embraced. Try harder.

 

Hamas does not offer anything which can be construed as a positive development. Not in his original charter, not in the current position paper. It offers nothing which relates to the illusions you're trying to sell.

 

Hamas is an Islamic movement, which subscribes to violence. On many a posts you claim to be both an atheist and to abhor violence. Not that I take your words at face value, but supporting Hamas, in any form, under those terms - is ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

 

[dexterm]

Seems rather over dramatic, negative, and counter productive if you are genuinely seeking peace negotiations to toss what is regarded as conciliatory into the waste basket.

 

Maybe another Netanyahu histrionics which will come back to haunt him.

[Scott]

Continued trolling will result in suspensions.   One post removed.  

 

Get on the topic and stay on it.  

[Morch]

1 minute ago, khunken said:

Hamas is a political, social organisation with a military wing. It exists only because Israel would have to carpet bomb Gaza and parts of (what's left of) the Palestinian territories. Yhere are surely elements within Israel which would love to do that but it would be a step too far for moderates around the world. So they continue to bump off those individuals they don't like.

 

I see you like to twist my post as well as Dexterm's. I said that Christians & seculars (PLFP members & supporters) are important - not an important part. They are humans suffering collective punishment & all citizens of Gaza are in the same Israeli racist boat.

 

The PA is allowed to exist as long as it does Israel's & the US's bidding. Oh and there are Christians within the PA too - do you just toss them out too?

 

BTW when prisoner exchanges take place, Israel & Hamas do have to talk - through intermediaries. What a pity that they can't continue those talks - it's the not give an inch that I referred to earlier. Just like in NI, Hamas is a part of the problem but unfortunately there's no effort on the US's behalf (Like the UK did in NI) to make Israel accept an independent negotiator or panel.

 

Hamas's military wing is rather dominant for some time now, and even if it wasn't - it is not fully subservient to the political wing. So all them niceties about it being a "political, social organization" are used in an attempt to hide this elephant. As for "It exists only because Israel....etc" - I have no idea what you thought you were trying to say in this sentence. Either botched editing or a gross disconnect with reality.

 

I did not twist anything, what you posted was this - "... Yes, Christians and secular people are a small (but nevertheless important) part of the Palestinians...". Christians are a minority within Palestinian society and not always well treated. The PFLP is, nominally, a Marxist outfit, which still carries terrorist attacks against Israel. Last elections they got about 4% of the vote and (if memory serves, 3 seats in parliament). Again, refusing to acknowledge the religious aspect of the conflict, or that it is widely used and applied even by nominally secular factions is not a viable position. If you're hung on this obfuscation,  may wish to consider that Christians and "seculars" were killed by Palestinian terrorist attacks in Israel too.

 

The PA exists because there was a set of agreements which brought about its creation. It did not come about against the wishes of the Palestinians. It does not continue to exist against the wishes of the Palestinians. The PA does quite a bit that both Israel and the US object to, especially on the UN and the international front. It still exists. And again, no idea what you're on about with regard to Christians "within the PA" or what "tossing them out too" was referring to.

 

Carrying on with your one-sided view - there is also no effort to make Hamas recognize Israel, agree to negotiations and embrace a compromise. But somehow, in your account, it's all Israel's and the US's fault. That Hamas position - which is the main subject of the topic - rejects this out of hand, doesn't seem to bother you much.