Trump considering how move of U.S. Embassy in Israel could affect Mideast peace

[tonbridgebrit]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

You have no idea what Trump knows or why he does specific things. You make guesses, like most of us and the rest of the World. Trump just signed a huge arms deal with SA. Guess that was meant to antagonize Muslims too. The OP is about a spat between his team and the Israelis. Guess that was meant to antagonize Muslims too.

 

Lets be honest, you're making bogus half-cooked arguments. Oh, and the US elections are over.

Morch, so I make guesses like most other people ?  Well, yes, these are my views, certainly.

What on earth do you think is the point of moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem ?  What's the point, other than to antagonise Muslims ?

Do you reckon that most Muslims are against moving the Embassy to Jerusalem ? Or, do you reckon that most Muslims are cheering this on ?

You mention the huge arms deal with Saudi Arabia, was this done to antagonise the Muslims ? No, it was done because Washington is acting on behalf of the defence contractors, they want to make a huge profit. And because Washington knows that Saudi Arabia is NOT going to use those weapons against any NATO countries, that's why it's okay to sell the stuff to them.

 

Edited May 16, 2017 by tonbridgebrit

[Jingthing]

15 minutes ago, Credo said:

For someone who has a slogan of "America First", this is a stupid move.   It will cost a lot of money and will only anger Muslims.   It will do nothing positive for America.   

Or, arguably, Israel. 

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Morch, so I make guesses like most other people ?  Well, yes, these are my views, certainly.

What on earth do you think is the point of moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem ?  What's the point, other than to antagonise Muslims ?

Do you reckon that most Muslims are against moving the Embassy to Jerusalem ? Or, do you reckon that most Muslims are cheering this on ?

You mention the huge arms deal with Saudi Arabia, was this done to antagonise the Muslims ? No, it was done because Washington is acting on behalf of the defence contractors, they want to make a huge profit. And because Washington knows that Saudi Arabia is NOT going to use those weapons against any NATO countries, that's why it's okay to sell the stuff to them.

 

 

Like most of Trump's decisions, it's probably about Trump, and/or whatever simplistic notion he's on about at any given time. He's got a bunch of advisors who seem to see this as some sort of religious/ideological issue, and that's enough to reinforce the idea. 

 

I don't think Trump is specifically focused on antagonizing all Muslims. Or anyone else, for that matter. He's just a BS'er with an ego, and hence gets caught up in these things. Doesn't seem like he's got much of an ideological spine, or the required attention span.

 

That it's a bad idea, is a given. That there are nefarious intentions behind it, specifically originating with Trump, doubtful. Same as with many of Trump's ideas.

 

 

[boomerangutang]

Very little good can come out of it, if any.   Whereas a whole lot of conflict will get stirred up if it's put into gear.  

 

Trump will be visiting Saudi Arabia in a few days, and the royals there will probably tell him it's a bad idea, and hopefully he'll listen to them.

[CharlieK]

7 hours ago, Morch said:

 

How would it "prove" anything? Objecting to moves which undermine the position is expected. Israel does the same.

 

If Trump (not the US, the US policy is something different) would insist, then there could be a relocation of the Embassy, at least temporarily. Other than showing that POTUS can have his way, how would that be constructive to peace efforts, though? You suggest that it "has the potential of being the opposite", and yet do not provide any coherent explanation as to how.

 

The US does not even recognize Palestine as a state, never mind having an Embassy. It also does not recognize East Jerusalem as the capital of such a state, so what are you on about?

 

Judging from comments of Israeli politicians, they wouldn't go for a US Embassy relocation, if it was tied with a US recognition of Palestinian statehood or a making unilateral decisions about Jerusalem's integrity.

I presume that will all change at some stage the US might recognise a Palestinian state or would have to as part of the peace process. My suggestion is that if both had embassies in Jerusalem as part of a peace deal it might go a long way to making that peace happen. Just an idea!

 

Other than that I don't actually see Trump as having the answers to peace between Israel and Arabs. He will try and bully his way if he has too. I think it will be a wake up call for Netanyahu, and Abbas also. Certainly this is the last chance either has of making peace. Or the ball will be kicked down the road till new leaders emerge that are more able to make peace. If peace s going to happen. IMO the Palestinian question will be a minor one in a few years time, or things will stay the same.

 

As one poster likes to claim the palestinians will be absorbed into an Israeli state. Wrong Israel may want the land they don't want the people. They will fade away to Jordan when they realise their leaders are useless. Abbas has help the palestinians back in the game of statehood, had he been seen to be a state builder and not a nation demoniser. Peace would have come sooner.  Again Just my view of things regardless of what politicians are saying.      

[ilostmypassword]

10 hours ago, soalbundy said:

I wonder how he considers, hmmm, what would batman do in a situation like this.

The fact is, and, please keep this between us, the billionaire from Gotham, Donald Trump, is Batman. He just took one too many blows to the head. Oddly enough, he's the Joker, too.

[maewang99]

I haven't seen it on Thaivisa..... you also know... seriously..... he put the US Navy on notice that their long running multi-billion dollar development of a replacement technology for the new aircraft carriers should be abandoned... and they should stick with steam... because 'only Albert Einstein could understand' the new technology... which would be quicker at putting planes up and.... could handle drones which steam can't.

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by maewang99

[boomerangutang]

Trump should recuse himself from all things dealing with foreign affairs.  He's totally out of his league.  Not only did he not know the Russians had gone in and taken a key part of Ukraine (when everyone else knew), he also didn't know that there have been 3 Kim dictators since the 1950's.  Trump recently referenced Fat Boy Kim, as if he'd been solely in power the entire 60 years.

[Morch]

11 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

Very little good can come out of it, if any.   Whereas a whole lot of conflict will get stirred up if it's put into gear.  

 

Trump will be visiting Saudi Arabia in a few days, and the royals there will probably tell him it's a bad idea, and hopefully he'll listen to them.

 

Saudi Arabia, as well as most other Arab countries already expressed their negative take on the proposed move.

[Morch]

9 hours ago, CharlieK said:

I presume that will all change at some stage the US might recognise a Palestinian state or would have to as part of the peace process. My suggestion is that if both had embassies in Jerusalem as part of a peace deal it might go a long way to making that peace happen. Just an idea!

 

Other than that I don't actually see Trump as having the answers to peace between Israel and Arabs. He will try and bully his way if he has too. I think it will be a wake up call for Netanyahu, and Abbas also. Certainly this is the last chance either has of making peace. Or the ball will be kicked down the road till new leaders emerge that are more able to make peace. If peace s going to happen. IMO the Palestinian question will be a minor one in a few years time, or things will stay the same.

 

As one poster likes to claim the palestinians will be absorbed into an Israeli state. Wrong Israel may want the land they don't want the people. They will fade away to Jordan when they realise their leaders are useless. Abbas has help the palestinians back in the game of statehood, had he been seen to be a state builder and not a nation demoniser. Peace would have come sooner.  Again Just my view of things regardless of what politicians are saying.      

 

How things may look in the future is one matter, how things stand is another. If a peace agreement is achieved, then the Embassy issue is moot anyway. The problem with the suggested move is that it precedes a peace agreement, and is seen as counter-productive to achieving such an agreement. Carriage and horses thing.

 

It is generally agreed that Trump is more bluster than substance, and all the more so with regard to solving this conflict. So while the leaders of both sides may express public enthusiasm for his involvement, doubt that they hold the same views in private. More about it being bad form to refuse POTUS, or look like the unwilling party.

 

And no, the Palestinians will not "fade away to Jordan". That's more like Israeli right wing wishful thinking. There is nothing that suggests this is on the horizon, or that it would be tied to disappointment with leadership. And nothing suggests that Jordan is open to the proposition, quite the opposite.

[Morch]

5 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

The fact is, and, please keep this between us, the billionaire from Gotham, Donald Trump, is Batman. He just took one too many blows to the head. Oddly enough, he's the Joker, too.

 

 

[Morch]

4 hours ago, maewang99 said:

I haven't seen it on Thaivisa..... you also know... seriously..... he put the US Navy on notice that their long running multi-billion dollar development of a replacement technology for the new aircraft carriers should be abandoned... and they should stick with steam... because 'only Albert Einstein could understand' the new technology... which would be quicker at putting planes up and.... could handle drones which steam can't.

 

 

Wrong topic?

[thaibeachlovers]

On 5/15/2017 at 8:37 AM, Andaman Al said:

Which side are you talking about?

Israels 'Minister for Justice Eyelet Shaked calls for the extermination of all Palestinians and their homes. Wow! so much beauty on the outside and so disgusting on the inside.

 

 

The consideration needing to be given to this extremely simple dichotomy is straightforward and takes 10 seconds. The move of the US Embassy to Israel WOULD adversely affect peace in the Middle East and therefore it would account for the loss of many many lives, therefore do not do it. Simple really. Now I must check the newspaper jobs for any vacancies going as a World Leader it seems pretty simple to me.

If Trump moves the embassy I will join you in criticizing Trump.

For a start, Jerusalem does not belong to Israel. Under the UN charter that set up Israel Jerusalem is an international city. If Trump moves the embassy he is endorsing the occupied territories and probably breaking international law.

Hopefully, saner minds in his administration will convince him not to move it.

[Andaman Al]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If Trump moves the embassy I will join you in criticizing Trump.

For a start, Jerusalem does not belong to Israel. Under the UN charter that set up Israel Jerusalem is an international city. If Trump moves the embassy he is endorsing the occupied territories and probably breaking international law.

Hopefully, saner minds in his administration will convince him not to move it.

thaibeachlovers, you have no idea how excited I am that soon there is the prospect that we could become friends   Now it is just all down to Trumpy to follow through on doing whatever Netanyahu tells him.

[Morch]

14 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If Trump moves the embassy I will join you in criticizing Trump.

For a start, Jerusalem does not belong to Israel. Under the UN charter that set up Israel Jerusalem is an international city. If Trump moves the embassy he is endorsing the occupied territories and probably breaking international law.

Hopefully, saner minds in his administration will convince him not to move it.

 

Let's try this again (based on a post from a parallel topic):

 

Following the logic of your learned argument, the Palestinians do not have any rights in Jerusalem as well. Not sure if that's an acceptable position as far as they go, or if that's part of the point you were trying to establish. Worth mentioning that there were less objections aired when during Jordan's occupation of the same, during which access to certain religious sites was barred.

 

Most of the current formulations refer to the 1967 lines, hence de-facto ignoring the suggested status of Jerusalem under the 1947 partition plan. It is pretty much recognized that parts of Jerusalem not beyond those lines belong to Israel, while the problems relate more to the Eastern part of the city and its surroundings. Claiming "no legal right" is a reactionary position.

 

Moving the US Embassy would be a mistake, but how much of one depends on the details (such as exact location). You don't do details, and that's understandable, might shoot your argument in the foot.

 

11 hours ago, Andaman Al said:

thaibeachlovers, you have no idea how excited I am that soon there is the prospect that we could become friends   Now it is just all down to Trumpy to follow through on doing whatever Netanyahu tells him.

 

There is no indication Trump is doing Netanyahu's bidding. If anything, Netanyahu is strains to be rather cautious dealing with Trump,  being well aware of POTUS's inflated ego and volatility. If anything the OP is an example of how Netanyahu doesn't get his way when it comes to Trump.

 

And getting back to the real world:

 

Trump Rules Out Moving Israel Embassy to Jerusalem for Now, Official Says

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-05-17/trump-said-to-rule-out-moving-israel-embassy-to-jerusalem

 

Of course, he could be "following through" on Netanyahu's wishes:

 

Netanyahu insists he told Trump to move embassy to Jerusalem

https://www.ft.com/content/c56d9fd6-39a7-11e7-821a-6027b8a20f23

 

Netanyahu denies privately urging Trump not to move embassy to Jerusalem

http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-said-to-have-privately-urged-trump-against-jerusalem-embassy-move/

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Let's try this again (based on a post from a parallel topic):

 

Following the logic of your learned argument, the Palestinians do not have any rights in Jerusalem as well. Not sure if that's an acceptable position as far as they go, or if that's part of the point you were trying to establish. Worth mentioning that there were less objections aired when during Jordan's occupation of the same, during which access to certain religious sites was barred.

 

Most of the current formulations refer to the 1967 lines, hence de-facto ignoring the suggested status of Jerusalem under the 1947 partition plan. It is pretty much recognized that parts of Jerusalem not beyond those lines belong to Israel, while the problems relate more to the Eastern part of the city and its surroundings. Claiming "no legal right" is a reactionary position.

 

Moving the US Embassy would be a mistake, but how much of one depends on the details (such as exact location). You don't do details, and that's understandable, might shoot your argument in the foot.

 

 

There is no indication Trump is doing Netanyahu's bidding. If anything, Netanyahu is strains to be rather cautious dealing with Trump,  being well aware of POTUS's inflated ego and volatility. If anything the OP is an example of how Netanyahu doesn't get his way when it comes to Trump.

 

And getting back to the real world:

 

Trump Rules Out Moving Israel Embassy to Jerusalem for Now, Official Says

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-05-17/trump-said-to-rule-out-moving-israel-embassy-to-jerusalem

 

Of course, he could be "following through" on Netanyahu's wishes:

 

Netanyahu insists he told Trump to move embassy to Jerusalem

https://www.ft.com/content/c56d9fd6-39a7-11e7-821a-6027b8a20f23

 

Netanyahu denies privately urging Trump not to move embassy to Jerusalem

http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-said-to-have-privately-urged-trump-against-jerusalem-embassy-move/

 

 

That's right, Palestinians have no right under the UN charter to Jerusalem either. However, given the UN had no right to give any land to anyone the Palestinians do have historical rights of residence in Jerusalem.

I do understand that in the real world we inhabit, "rights" mean nothing to the rich and powerful, and they do whatever they like. Hence they stole Palestinian land to give to the Zionists, and after the 67 war allowed Israel to keep Jerusalem in contravention of the UN charter. If America didn't want Israel to have the land it wouldn't have it. 

[Morch]

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

So, lacking anything substantial to say, you fall back on the usual combo of uniformed drivel and stale propaganda. Expected,

 

 

[Ramen087]

Just now, Morch said:

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

So, lacking anything substantial to say, you fall back on the usual combo of uniformed drivel and stale propaganda. Expected,

as an FYI only ---> Post is difficult to read with dark highlight and dark text

[JHolmesJr]

Don't worry fellas…..moving this embassy would be a dumb move…Mr T is not dumb…..he was just messing with the yahu fm Israel.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, Morch said:

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

So, lacking anything substantial to say, you fall back on the usual combo of uniformed drivel and stale propaganda. Expected,