Renewal of UK Driving Licence (heads up)

[rockingrobin]

31 minutes ago, topt said:

Yes I agree/concede section 4 is the kicker.

What I do not understand though is the lack of a clear statement (which would be so easy) on the relevant .gov.uk sites if, and its a big if, they really wanted this to be enforced. Since you often use your home licence to apply for one abroad one can perhaps assume that pragmatism actually did win out in this case?

It is due to the fact that you can exchange a UK photocard licence for a EEA member states licence if you are resident in that member state.

Also consider that you are only subject to UK law whilst residing in its jurisdiction. Generally once you have left the UK you are no longer subject to its law. 

[simoh1490]

7 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Do you suppose that the many thousands of armed forces personnel, members of the diplomatic service, expat workers and volunteer workers etc. etc. that serve abroad. surrender their licences? Of course they don't!

 

Do  you suppose that they ever get a letter from DVLA asking them to do so. Of course they don't.

 

Because under the provision I have just sited. As long as you are a British Subject, you  do not require ''leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom'' you are thus entitled to keep your licence, where ever you may be living at the time.

 

I personally have lived abroad 6 times, for periods lasting from 2 years up to 14 years. And have never encountered any difficulty on my return with renewing or changing the details of my licence.

Not encountering difficulty in the past is not to be mistaken for what the law says. Just like in Thailand there are statutes that are often not enforced at all and then all of a sudden wham, they are enforced vigorously. Like you I have lived overseas before and I've never encountered a problem, once for fifteen years and a second time for fourteen years, but that was then and this is now! Anyway, this is not about what a person can get away with or work arounds, it's about stating what the rules are so that others can make informed decisions. Re/ Armed Forces: almost certainly, somewhere in some document is the section that says something like, Armed Forces personal overseas excluded.

[transam]

15 minutes ago, GBK said:

You have applied and been declined?

No, I don't speak Thai, I have never paid taxes and am retired.....

[GBK]

16 minutes ago, transam said:

No, I don't speak Thai, I have never paid taxes and am retired.....

 

3 good reasons then.

 

Are the taxes an absolute requirement?

[simoh1490]

4 minutes ago, lungnorm said:

Not by a long shot. I am sure it refers to a change of address not for leaving the country. You take things too seriously. Lighten up, maybe you should apply for a position with Thai immigration, then nobody would get any visa extensions etc. 

I think it's time you went to visit my ignore list.

[jamie2009]

On 20/05/2017 at 11:21 AM, jamie2009 said:

To be honest I don't understand why they ask a UK Resident too provide proof of address when many of their customers from abroad can't but can still hire a car.

 

 

On 20/05/2017 at 11:21 AM, jamie2009 said:

To be honest I don't understand why they ask a UK Resident too provide proof of address when many of their customers from abroad can't but can still hire a car.

 

TBH I can't either, I will ask the question when I pick the car up, the company I am using also want to see a copy of my CC Statement as well.

[transam]

11 minutes ago, GBK said:

 

3 good reasons then.

 

Are the taxes an absolute requirement?

Yep....

[Moonlover]

33 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Not encountering difficulty in the past is not to be mistaken for what the law says. Just like in Thailand there are statutes that are often not enforced at all and then all of a sudden wham, they are enforced vigorously. Like you I have lived overseas before and I've never encountered a problem, once for fifteen years and a second time for fourteen years, but that was then and this is now! Anyway, this is not about what a person can get away with or work arounds, it's about stating what the rules are so that others can make informed decisions. Re/ Armed Forces: almost certainly, somewhere in some document is the section that says something like, Armed Forces personal overseas excluded.

That I would concede if I had seen any clear evidence that one must surrender their licence when they leave the country.

 

Thus far I have not.

[simoh1490]

1 minute ago, Moonlover said:

That I would concede if I had seen any clear evidence that one must surrender their licence when they leave the country.

 

Thus far I have not.

You don't have to look as far as leaving the country, you just need to look at changing your address and the need to surrender your license to DVLC in order to have it changed. And if you have an address in the UK it will be changed and you will get the license back. But if your address is overseas you will have to consider your license, surrendered - the part about surrendering your license is a consequence of not having a UK address to change on your license rather than the act of physically moving abroad.

[GBK]

10 minutes ago, transam said:

Yep....

 

I haven't looked at that for years but when I did, I didn't really see much advantage to it for me.

[Rimmer]

Several baiting flaming and bickering posts have been removed

[Moonlover]

49 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

You don't have to look as far as leaving the country, you just need to look at changing your address and the need to surrender your license to DVLC in order to have it changed. And if you have an address in the UK it will be changed and you will get the license back. But if your address is overseas you will have to consider your license, surrendered - the part about surrendering your license is a consequence of not having a UK address to change on your license rather than the act of physically moving abroad.

Sorry, but that is simply more conjecture.

 

If you visit the the Change of address web site at:

 

https://www.gov.uk/change-address-driving-licence

 

And scroll down this is what you will find:

 

''If you’re moving abroad

You can’t register your new address on your British driving licence. Contact the driving licence authority in your new country of residence''.

 

Now, don't you think that if there was anything more important that a licence holder going to live abroad needs to know, wouldn't this be where that information would be?

 

Sorry, I'm not convinced that one needs to surrender one's licence. In fact everything I have come across so says the opposite.

 

 

[simoh1490]

1 minute ago, Moonlover said:

Sorry, but that is simply more conjecture.

 

If you visit the the Change of address web site at:

 

https://www.gov.uk/change-address-driving-licence

 

And scroll down this is what you will find:

 

''If you’re moving abroad

You can’t register your new address on your British driving licence. Contact the driving licence authority in your new country of residence''.

 

Now, don't you think that if there was anything more important that a licence holder going to live abroad needs to know, wouldn't this be where that information would be?

 

Sorry, I'm not convinced that one needs to surrender one's licence. In fact everything I have come across so says the opposite.

 

 

Then we have to agree to disagree and let other readers form their own views based on the governement link and the Road Traffic Act. There are quite a few expat sites on the web that have supportive information on this topic, first hand accounts etc. But since those sites might be viewed as competitors to TVF I'm reluctant to post extracts/links here - they're easily found with a simple Google search however.

[Moonlover]

6 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Then we have to agree to disagree and let other readers form their own views based on the governement link and the Road Traffic Act. There are quite a few expat sites on the web that have supportive information on this topic, first hand accounts etc. But since those sites might be viewed as competitors to TVF I'm reluctant to post extracts/links here - they're easily found with a simple Google search however.

Have a nice evening. I'm off out with my wife for dinner and she's driving 

[evadgib]

5 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Not encountering difficulty in the past is not to be mistaken for what the law says. Just like in Thailand there are statutes that are often not enforced at all and then all of a sudden wham, they are enforced vigorously. Like you I have lived overseas before and I've never encountered a problem, once for fifteen years and a second time for fourteen years, but that was then and this is now! Anyway, this is not about what a person can get away with or work arounds, it's about stating what the rules are so that others can make informed decisions. Re/ Armed Forces: almost certainly, somewhere in some document is the section that says something like, Armed Forces personal overseas excluded.

Crown Servants are regarded as resident regardless of geographic location for as long as they are Serving (ie employed by) the Crown.

 

HTH

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_servant

 

Edited May 21, 2017 by evadgib
Added a 'Sir Humphrey' from wikipedia :)

[Moonlover]

17 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Crown Servants are regarded as resident regardless of geographic location for as long as they are Serving (ie employed by) the Crown.

 

HTH

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_servant

 

As far taxation goes, this quite true. But they are subject to the same rules as everybody else when it comes to the law of the land.

[evadgib]

41 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

As far taxation goes, this quite true. But they are subject to the same rules as everybody else when it comes to the law of the land.

Law of the land my arrse; the phrase that applies re driving licences for Brits in general and this group in particular goes by the name of Common Sense!

Edited May 21, 2017 by evadgib

[simoh1490]

9 hours ago, Moonlover said:

As far taxation goes, this quite true. But they are subject to the same rules as everybody else when it comes to the law of the land.

Try this:

 

Three questions requiring Yes or No answers:

 

1 - Do you agree the law says you must keep the address on your UK license current?

2 - Do you agree that, if you live in the UK and you move house, you must surrender your license to have DVLC record your new address?

3 - Do you agree you must surrender your license to allow DVLC to record your new address?

[jacko45k]

17 hours ago, possum1931 said:

Read my post again, I said "as long as no one is inconvenienced", if anyone drives without the proper licence and insurance, they deserve all they get.

Read my post again.... I am highlighting a potential risk which will be inconveniencing for multiple people should it occur, which you failed to identify.

[Moonlover]

3 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Try this:

 

Three questions requiring Yes or No answers:

 

1 - Do you agree the law says you must keep the address on your UK license current?

2 - Do you agree that, if you live in the UK and you move house, you must surrender your license to have DVLC record your new address?

3 - Do you agree you must surrender your license to allow DVLC to record your new address?

1. Yes

2. Yes

3. Yes

 

However, if you are going abroad and do not have a UK address you cannot comply with 3. But there is still nothing there that says you must surrender it. In fact, the instruction is quite clear and I quoted them yesterday.

 

''If you’re moving abroad

You can’t register your new address on your British driving licence. Contact the driving licence authority in your new country of residence''.

 

And that comes straight from the government's web site that covers this matter. Now unless someone can come up with anything that countermands that, I'm sticking with it.

 

Have a good day.

 

 

[Anon999]

Why does anyone need a UK driving license when you can drive in the UK and Europe on a 5 year Thai license, providing it is valid for 1 year on arrival, beats me? 

Edited May 23, 2017 by Anon999
Missing word

[transam]

19 minutes ago, Anon999 said:

Why does anyone need a UK driving license when you can drive in the UK and Europe on a 5 year Thai license, providing it is valid for 1 year on arrival, beats me? 

Perhaps for those who don't really live in LOS because of pension stuff...?.....

[NanLaew]

The 'debate' rolls on. Thousands of Brits living overseas have a current UK address on their UKDL. Whether that address is their own, a family members or a friends is both irrelevant and improper if they are non-resident in the UK. If circumstances arose where it was found that they were not entitled to having that UKDL due to abuse of the address information and their non-residency, they are still liable for the 1000 quid fine. However, there's no special branch of the UK plod watching out for us so it is all much ado about nothing IMHO. Someone mentioned that government computer databases could be linked up and your true non-resident status easily verified from your passport activity record. However, since I don't recall anyone at UK Immigration ever scanning my passport as I exit the country, I am not sure if that premise is entirely valid. Are UK departure immigration formalities the remit of the airline as it is in the US in that your personal ID, passport and other data is gathered for sharing with multiple agencies at check in?

 

Anyway, if anyone wants to run the gamut of using their UKDL in their homeland one needs to have a bit more than the 2 photo identities, a credit card, a DL a utility and/or tax bill in the same name as the renter, DL and credit card. One needs to go online about a week ahead of the trip and apply to the DVLC for a one-time-code. At the car rental desk, they will ask for this code so they can access the DVLC computer and check on your points and license status. If you don't have a code, they can refuse to hand over the keys. A busier desk will surely have a way for a rental shop manager to use an elevated privilege log-in for the renter who honestly didn't know about the requirements. However, the single, night shift worker at a stormy, rainy, midnight, off-airport car rental pickup facility in Benbecula isn't likely to have that access.

 

FWIW, I renewed my UKDL using my sisters UK address many years ago and went online and did the address change when she moved house last year; no worries. I use my 5-year Thai DL to rent cars in the UK. Nothing has been or needs to be surrendered to anyone at this juncture.

Edited May 23, 2017 by NanLaew

[simoh1490]

1 hour ago, transam said:

Perhaps for those who don't really live in LOS because of pension stuff...?.....

Trans, you're not suggesting.....are you....dear god, who'd ever have thought it.

[rockingrobin]

14 hours ago, NanLaew said:

The 'debate' rolls on. Thousands of Brits living overseas have a current UK address on their UKDL. Whether that address is their own, a family members or a friends is both irrelevant and improper if they are non-resident in the UK. If circumstances arose where it was found that they were not entitled to having that UKDL due to abuse of the address information and their non-residency, they are still liable for the 1000 quid fine. However, there's no special branch of the UK plod watching out for us so it is all much ado about nothing IMHO. Someone mentioned that government computer databases could be linked up and your true non-resident status easily verified from your passport activity record. However, since I don't recall anyone at UK Immigration ever scanning my passport as I exit the country, I am not sure if that premise is entirely valid. Are UK departure immigration formalities the remit of the airline as it is in the US in that your personal ID, passport and other data is gathered for sharing with multiple agencies at check in?

 

Anyway, if anyone wants to run the gamut of using their UKDL in their homeland one needs to have a bit more than the 2 photo identities, a credit card, a DL a utility and/or tax bill in the same name as the renter, DL and credit card. One needs to go online about a week ahead of the trip and apply to the DVLC for a one-time-code. At the car rental desk, they will ask for this code so they can access the DVLC computer and check on your points and license status. If you don't have a code, they can refuse to hand over the keys. A busier desk will surely have a way for a rental shop manager to use an elevated privilege log-in for the renter who honestly didn't know about the requirements. However, the single, night shift worker at a stormy, rainy, midnight, off-airport car rental pickup facility in Benbecula isn't likely to have that access.

 

FWIW, I renewed my UKDL using my sisters UK address many years ago and went online and did the address change when she moved house last year; no worries. I use my 5-year Thai DL to rent cars in the UK. Nothing has been or needs to be surrendered to anyone at this juncture.

When renewing UK driving licence a declaration of residency is required which in turn would invalidate the thai domestic licence in the UK , Motor Vehicle (international circular)1975.  The thai domestic licence is only valid for 12 months from the first date of beoming resident, after which point the holder is expected to obtain a UK licence.

[simoh1490]

5 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

When renewing UK driving licence a declaration of residency is required which in turn would invalidate the thai domestic licence in the UK , Motor Vehicle (international circular)1975.  The thai domestic licence is only valid for 12 months from the first date of beoming resident, after which point the holder is expected to obtain a UK licence.

I think the Thai license wouldn't be invalidated by a statement of UK residency, it would be invalidated by the end of the 12 month grace period OR by passing the UK driving test and receiving a new UK license. A returning expat can be UK resident from day 1 or indeed for tax purposes it can take 183 days, the ability to drive using the Thai license ignores those things.

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, rockingrobin said:

When renewing UK driving licence a declaration of residency is required which in turn would invalidate the thai domestic licence in the UK , Motor Vehicle (international circular)1975.  The thai domestic licence is only valid for 12 months from the first date of beoming resident, after which point the holder is expected to obtain a UK licence.

The declaration specifically and/or automatically invalidates the non-UK DL?

 

1 hour ago, simoh1490 said:

I think the Thai license wouldn't be invalidated by a statement of UK residency, it would be invalidated by the end of the 12 month grace period OR by passing the UK driving test and receiving a new UK license. A returning expat can be UK resident from day 1 or indeed for tax purposes it can take 183 days, the ability to drive using the Thai license ignores those things.

Glad that you two agree with what has been known for a long time. The UK, like Thailand, allows you a limited time to drive on the DL of your home country before requiring you obtain a local one.

 

The upshot is if you have a UK license, keep it current but don't use it in the UK. If you have a Thai license, keep it current and use it in the UK.

 

Holding either license doesn't confer any other benefits with regard to tax liability, NHS eligibility or residence status. I think some are somewhat distracted by the fact that the Thai DL is a fairly important piece of PERSONAL ID for foreigners in Thailand whereas the UK DL typically never sees the light of day.

[rockingrobin]

40 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

The declaration specifically and/or automatically invalidates the non-UK DL?

 

Glad that you two agree with what has been known for a long time. The UK, like Thailand, allows you a limited time to drive on the DL of your home country before requiring you obtain a local one.

 

The upshot is if you have a UK license, keep it current but don't use it in the UK. If you have a Thai license, keep it current and use it in the UK.

 

Holding either license doesn't confer any other benefits with regard to tax liability, NHS eligibility or residence status. I think some are somewhat distracted by the fact that the Thai DL is a fairly important piece of PERSONAL ID for foreigners in Thailand whereas the UK DL typically never sees the light of day.

Section 2 of the Motor Vehicle (international Circulations)1975

 

' 2.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this Article, it shall be lawful for a person resident outside the United Kingdom who is temporarily in Great Britain and holds—

(a)a Convention driving permit, or

(b)a domestic driving permit issued in a country outside the United Kingdom, or

(c)a British Forces (BFG) driving licence,

during a period of twelve months from the date of his last entry into the United Kingdom to drive, and, except in the case of a holder of a British Forces (BFG) driving licence, be employed in driving, in Great Britain a motor vehicle of any class which he is authorised by that permit or that licence to drive, notwithstanding that he is not the holder of a driving licence under Part III of the Road Traffic Act 1972. '

 

When you renew your UK driving licence a declaration of being  resident in UK is made

[sumrit]

Several years ago my wife and I went back to the UK for a three month holiday and stayed with a relative. I forgot to take my UK Licence with me and only had my Thai licence in my wallet. So I went to my local Police Station to confirm that I could use my Thai Licence in the UK. The deck sergeant confirmed that I could (for up to twelve months), but added that if I committed any traffic offences that would normally be dealt with by way of a fixed penalty I couldn't be dealt with in that way so would have to go to Magistrates court, and a larger fine would be the (usual) outcome.

 

She then went on to suggest that, as we were in the UK  long enough to obtain a new/replacement UK licence, I could declare my licence 'lost' and apply for a replacement one. When I queried about living at the relatives address she simply said I wouldn't be lying if I declared that as my 'CURRENT' address.

 

I don't know how lawful that was but it was the advice I was given by the police themselves. I followed her advice and obtained a new licence with a new address (my old licence still had my old address even though I'd already sold the house) but didn't get any driving tickets anyway. 

[i claudius]

I will give you my  UK licence when you pry it out of my cold dead hands .