After summits with Trump, Merkel says Europe must take fate into own hands

[lovelomsak]

7 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

Someone else who should apply for membership of the "i've got a solid grip on World Affairs and how reality works -NOT!' Club.

Could be Trump is challenging how world affairs work and is bringing reality to the forefront

[ilostmypassword]

8 minutes ago, lovelomsak said:

Could be Trump is challenging how world affairs work and is bringing reality to the forefront

As Trump demonstrates frequently via his tweeting, his connection to reality is tenuous at best.

[Araiwa]

On 5/29/2017 at 4:21 AM, darksidedog said:

That is one of the dumbest comments I have ever seen on this forum and shows you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. There is no central NATO bill that countries pay into. So there are no unpaid bills. None. Zip. Nada.

Each country is responsible for paying for its own defence forces, and provide some of those forces for international operations. There is an agreement in place that by 2024, each country promises to spend 2% of GDP on its defence. Right now, some countries are spending less than this, but they have a further seven years to rectify that.

All that is happening now is that Trump is bleating that some of them are not at 2% already.

No country is behind on their payments. No country has an outstanding bill. Everyone (apart from you it seems), understands that.

The whole thing is made worse by trumps refusal to acknowledge Article 5 that says the US will come to their partners aid if ever needed.

Thank you for setting the record straight. I was just about writing something similar when I read your comment. Trump is a populist idiot who doesn't know shit about how NATO works. I still cannot believe that he became president even he lost the election by 3 million votes. The following article is dealing with this 2 % benchmark: http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-2-percent-nato-benchmark-red-herring-19472

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, lovelomsak said:

Could be Trump is challenging how world affairs work and is bringing reality to the forefront

Yes, the realty that the leader of the free world has stepped off the edge of sanity and elected a mentally bizarre authoritarian demagogue. Sad. 

[simple1]

1 hour ago, funandsuninbangkok said:

Well then, they better hope thier little Euro weapons work. That or start learning Russian. 

Well then you had better understand the quality of and type of German made weapons that are deployed in many countries' military

[Thakkar]

1 hour ago, Araiwa said:

Thank you for setting the record straight. I was just about writing something similar when I read your comment. Trump is a populist idiot who doesn't know shit about how NATO works. I still cannot believe that he became president even he lost the election by 3 million votes. The following article is dealing with this 2 % benchmark: http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-2-percent-nato-benchmark-red-herring-19472

Thanks for this. Great piece. 

It hadn't occurred to me that American defense costs includes veteran care while Europeann veterans are covered by universal healthcare. 

 

Anyway thats at a minor point. The bigger point is that the US is a world power that wants to project that power and that NATO is part of that projection. 

[citybiker]

Could be Trump is challenging how world affairs work and is bringing reality to the forefront

Fair & valid point.

A leave the moaning, bitching and frothing to the anti-Trump brigade.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[selftaopath]

20 hours ago, darksidedog said:

The 2% agreement does not come into play until 2024, so right now the percentages each country is spending is completely irrelevant. Only a complete retard (You know who!), would expect a country to go from 1.3% or 1.5% to 2% overnight, which would be completely impractical. If, after 2024 any member nation is failing to pay in the agreed upon amount, that would be the time to call them out on it. Donald talking about non existent, unpaid bills is the height of stupidity, but what we have come to expect from him.

Looking through the posts today, it is clear that many people have absolutely no understanding of how NATO operates or the fact it has no central funding, or individual "bills", or that there is nothing in place before 2024 to dictate what should be spent by NATO members. Anything Donald says on this subject is just fodder for the stupid, that keeps them occupied and not focusing on how badly he is doing.

On Putin/Trump's scorecard he is doing fantastically well. They are dismantling every aspect of our government. I believe his "cabinet" are his appointed oligarchy. There is a coup taking place b/f our very eyes. Most Americans don't even realize it. And the RussiaReps aka republicans are ok with it. They show everyday they will choose Putin/Trump/party over country.

[tonray]

37 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Well then you had better understand the quality of and type of German made weapons that are deployed in many countries' military

Not to mention that besides nuclear arsenal Russian conventional forces would not defeat Euro nations. This is not the Soviet Union. This is a small economically challenged dictatorship. The reason Putin attempts to push his way around as a bully is because he knows he is fundamentally weak and needs Iran to bolster his defenses. 

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, chrissables said:

All countries agreed to spend 2% of gpd, most don't. I can't be bothered to cross reference every county's gdp. But for sure it will add up to millions.

 

Here's a breakdown of each country's contribution, based on 2016 figures provided by NATO:

United States, 3.61%.

Greece, 2.38%.

Britain, 2.21%.

Estonia, 2.16%.

Poland, 2%.

France, 1.78%.

Turkey, 1.56%.

Norway, 1.54%.

Lithuania, 1.49%.

Romania, 1.48%.

Latvia, 1.45%.

Portugal, 1.38%.

Bulgaria, 1.35%.

Croatia, 1.23%.

Albania, 1.21%.

Germany, 1.19%.

Denmark, 1.17%.

Netherlands, 1.17%.

Slovakia, 1.16%.

Italy, 1.11%.

Czech Republic, 1.04%.

Hungary, 1.01%.

Canada, 0.99%.

Slovenia, 0.94%.

Spain, 0.91%.

Belgium, 0.85%.

Luxembourg, 0.44%.

But these are shortfalls in their own defence spending. The money is not owed to NATO.

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, stevenl said:

Please read before writing.

 

I reacted to another post, where debts were mentioned. Your act of coming in here and reacting to as many posts as possible  without reading properly makes some of your posts nonsensical.

You said "debt gets written off by USA"

 

I asked what debt?

 

What's wrong with that?

[INDI12]

The main gun and it's targeting on the abrahms tank is German made.. probably other stuff as well

Didn't know that. Was on military history channel..

[Andaman Al]

1 hour ago, citybiker said:

 

Fair & valid point.

A leave the moaning, bitching and frothing to the anti-Trump brigade.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

It is nothing to do with 'anti Trump people', it is to do with people like you spouting the nonsense being promoted by Trump that other NATO countries are falling short of the 2% defence spending threshold. Why are you repeating it when you are being shown it is utter nonsense ? That is what people are 'moaning, bitching and frothing' about. It's about the sheer bloody stupidity being displayed on this thread.

[Ramen087]

On 5/30/2017 at 10:07 AM, lovelomsak said:

Could be Trump is challenging how world affairs work and is bringing reality to the forefront

Yup.  "Let's actually move quickly."  Oh, no!  Cannot do that.

The whole kicking the can down the road classic political response, with no intention of every doing a thing about.  

Also known as: I'll leave it for the next guy/gal to deal with.. 

That crap has brought this world to its sorry state.  Change it?  Why do that?  So sad that people thought to be leaders can be so indecisive.  

[iReason]

Allies distance themselves from U.S. after Trump's first foreign trip

 

"WASHINGTON — President Trump received a largely cordial welcome on the first overseas trip of his presidency. But now that he's returned to Washington, the foreign leaders he met with are increasingly blunt in their reviews of the American president."

 

"In separate remarks intended mostly for domestic consumption, leaders of Germany, France and Israel all sought to distance themselves from Trump, just days after meeting with the president during his nine-day foreign trip to Saudi Arabia, Israel, Vatican City, Brussels and Italy."

 

"Among the sources of friction: Trump's reluctance to unreservedly commit to the North Atlantic alliance, his skepticism of a climate change accord signed on to by his predecessor, President Obama, and outreach to Palestinians in pursuit of a Middle East peace agreement."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/05/29/allies-distance-themselves-after-trumps-first-foreign-trip/102292048/

[Caps]

19 hours ago, Andaman Al said:

Where are you going to put all the troops that you pull out? There are probably (including families) 170-200K in Europe. In Italy and Germany alone the US has around 230-240 bases and military installations. Not all are active but all are there to be used as forward deployment areas when it suits US needs, and believe me it does NOT suit US interests to have Europe invaded by Russia, that would be the beginning of the end of the US (if Trump has not already started that beginning of the end). The real estate that the US holds on to is worth billions of dollars, so by all means clear off out.  Further across Europe and moving into Korea and Japan which also seems to gripe Trump supporters as they cannot comprehend why the US projects power in these areas, we are probably pushing 500-600 000 people including families. Where exactly are these people going to be housed and schooled if you dump them all back in the USA? Do you think there are houses and barracks for all these folks just sitting there? Don't forget to take ALL your hardware with you.

 

It would be IMPOSSIBLE for the US to operate in the Middle East as it does without forward deployment bases such as Ramstein in Germany and even Fairford in the UK. If the US gave it all up it would become impotent. Anytime it needed to deploy it would somehow have to get all the hardware out from the USA that it currently conveniently stores around the world. Everything from vehicles, hummers, kitchens, field surgeries, fast jets helicopters, would have to be deployed from the US EVERY TIME and don't forget all those personnel. How long would it take just to move 100K combat troops back to Europe for forward staging to the Middle East WITH Equipment. And lets not forget you would not actually be able to stage them through Europe (you pulled out on Europe), or refuel aircraft or transport weapons through. So tell me HOW you would get all the troops and hardware anywhere if you had to route from the USA.

 

All of you calling for the measures in the post by smedly and for other countries to 'pay their way' are as ignorant as Trump when it comes to Military strategy and economies. The US is currently getting a bargain of a deal for the use of the other countries it holds bases in and if I were a head of state in NATO right now after Trumps insults last week,  I would now be discussing with my counterparts about INCREASING the rental to US Military and lets see how smart the chump Trump would seem then. The USA military CANNOT operate without it's forward deployed bases in Europe, Asia and the Far East. Now just give it up with the school boy arguments and talking utter drivel. Just stop and THINK about it.

I like that, but you forgot to add that the US presence in these places is so that the next war (should it happen) will be fought on another countries land and not theirs.  Another reason why they wont pull out

[Thakkar]

10 minutes ago, Caps said:

I like that, but you forgot to add that the US presence in these places is so that the next war (should it happen) will be fought on another countries land and not theirs.  Another reason why they wont pull out

 

You're not a super power if you can't project that power. NATO's original intention became somewhat redundant once the Soviet Union collapsed and the Warsaw Pact disbanded. It's continued existence was more about projecting American power. The Europeans were right not to excessively expand their defense budgets just so the US could show the world how big a dick it had. 

[Grouse]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-angela-merkel-respond-germany-very-bad-us-twitter-nato-g7-leaders-visit-a7762841.html

 

What an absolute embarrassment Trump is; a complete wally.....

[KhonKaenKowboy]

June 12 will be the 30th anniversary of "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.". I am sure the Lefties will be celebrating with hot dogs and Michael Moore movies.  Likely all they can afford if they did like their idol Soros, who lost a billion betting against the us markets after Hillary's political death.  S&P up 7 days straight..first time in four years.  Warren must be happy, he put 12 billion in while proudly proclaiming his allegiance to the Left.

[boomerangutang]

On 5/29/2017 at 0:12 PM, habanero said:

I wish some people would make up their minds. All I keep hearing is;  the United States should tend to it's own affairs.  Now is Europe's chance to show the world that it can stand on it's own two feet and fend for itself.  So, why the complaints? 

                          Europe doesn't have a good history of standing on its own feet and fending for itself. In the past 100 years, Europe has had two major wars tearing at its heart.  In both cases, the USA came across the pond to help seal a decisive victory .....against Germany.    Am not sure precisely how this applies to the current scenario (because Germany has been a peaceful country for 60 years), but my mini-rant is in response to the above post saying Europe can stand on its own feet. 

 

                                 Trump is changing the long-term friendly relationship that has existed between the US and Europe.  It's not become adversarial (yet) but it's clear European leaders cannot rely on the ever-mutable, loose-lipped dufus who now occupies the Oval Office.     It doesn't help that Trump and his honchos have multiple connections to Russian leaders/agents.  Many of those entanglements involve large amounts of money.  The money entanglements are not yet hogging the headlines, but they will - in upcoming months.

 

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

5 minutes ago, KhonKaenKowboy said:

June 12 will be the 30th anniversary of "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.". I am sure the Lefties will be celebrating with hot dogs and Michael Moore movies.  Likely all they can afford if they did like their idol Soros, who lost a billion betting against the us markets after Hillary's political death.  S&P up 7 days straight..first time in four years.  Warren must be happy, he put 12 billion in while proudly proclaiming his allegiance to the Left.

The S&P reached a low on March 6, 2009 in the wake of the worst financial crisis since the great depression. At the end of Obama's first time, it had more than doubled. By the end of this 2nd term it had tripled. Please, don't bother us with insignificant factoids like a 7 day run of straight increases.

As for Soros, yes, he's a major failure of an investor. If only he had taken advice from  someone who believes factoids like a straight 7 day increase of the S&P index was significant. Just think where he's be today. He might be worth somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 billion dollars. Oh wait..he already is worth about 25 billion dollars. 

[KhonKaenKowboy]

Would like to hear how the experts here changed their investment strategies after 8-11.  Were they like Buffet and made huge bets on the Trump Economy?  The !EFT forced the banks to loan to those not credit worthy.  It worked until the music stopped.  Obama led the slowest recession recovery in history, while amassing a debt equal to all of US History.  People got chased out of the workforce and the unemployment rate dropped.  Let's take the thirty year old kids living in the basement out to McDonalds to celebrate, and they can visit their few employed friends working there.  Take Texas out of the equation and the recovery looks a lot more like a flat line.  The current generation of young adults are worse off than their predecessors for the first time ever.  Thank you, Barry Soweto.

[chrissables]

9 hours ago, Grouse said:

But these are shortfalls in their own defence spending. The money is not owed to NATO.

Is this money they agreed to pay in? 

 

If we and a few friends went out for a meal, and we agreed to split the cost, but some did not, who is wrong?

 

These countries agreed in principle to pay and have not. 

[iReason]

1 hour ago, KhonKaenKowboy said:

 Obama led the slowest recession recovery in history, while amassing a debt equal to all of US History.  

Thank you, Barry Soweto.

 

But, but, but, Obama, but, but, but, Hillary...

 

YAWN.

 

[Andaman Al]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-angela-merkel-respond-germany-very-bad-us-twitter-nato-g7-leaders-visit-a7762841.html

 

What an absolute embarrassment Trump is; a complete wally.....

Incredible! Tweeting a threat to Germany now over trade. It makes me want to use expletives that would get me a holiday.

[Andaman Al]

5 hours ago, Thakkar said:

 The Europeans were right not to excessively expand their defense budgets just so the US could show the world how big a dick it had. 

Incomplete sentence, you missed out the words "leading it".

[Andaman Al]

1 hour ago, chrissables said:

Is this money they agreed to pay in? 

 

If we and a few friends went out for a meal, and we agreed to split the cost, but some did not, who is wrong?

 

These countries agreed in principle to pay and have not. 

Wrong wrong wrong.

 

They did not agree to pay anything 'in'.

 

If we went out for a meal and I said 'mate i can't come as I don't get paid for another two weeks' and you said 'nah come on out, I will pay for you, it can be your turn after pay day,' and then that night you made a scene at the table because I had no money,  - who is wrong?

 

The countries agreed to expand their defence spending by 2024. Is that so difficult for the Trump supporters to actually understand and acknowledge? It is like watching pre-schoolers trying to get a grip on quantum entanglement.

 

Trump comes out with some crap as part of a speech written by an illiterate tool and you all believe him without so much as an educated thought, despite 90% of the time he fails fact checking.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, chrissables said:

Is this money they agreed to pay in? 

 

If we and a few friends went out for a meal, and we agreed to split the cost, but some did not, who is wrong?

 

These countries agreed in principle to pay and have not. 

Pay in? To what?

 

Nobody is "wrong". Some ordered Big Macs, but some only ordered cheese burgers.

 

Finally, the agreement was to all order at least Big Macs from 2024 onwards 

[stevenl]

17 hours ago, Grouse said:

You said "debt gets written off by USA"

 

I asked what debt?

 

What's wrong with that?

That's what happens when you jump into a discussion without reading previous posts.

 

Now you could click on the small arrow and read the posts it concerned, but I'll do the work for you. Somebody said "debts get written off by the USA", I answered with, "debts get written off by the USA" ROFL.

So I never said myself 'debts get written off by the USA', which would be very strange anyway since there are no debts.

[selftaopath]

On 5/29/2017 at 7:11 PM, darksidedog said:

I really don't enjoy ripping into people, especially not twice in a day, but your post deserves this.

No one has reneged on anything with the exception of Donald Trump refusing to confirm support for article 5 which requires members to come to each others aid when needed. All other NATO members have done so. This is the only thing anyone has reneged upon. Got that so far? Trump is the one reneging, or at least not confirming America will hold its side of the deal.

No member of NATO has reneged on ANY payments whatsoever. Please feel free to post a link if you can show otherwise.

I have explained this to you once today already, but I will try again and use small words where possible.

There is no NATO bill. Post a link if this is incorrect.

There is no percentage of GDP that members have to pay until 2024. That is seven years away. Post a link if this is incorrect.

There are no debts. Post a link if this is incorrect.

Everyone at the moment pays for their own military and joins international operations as needed. Post a link if this is incorrect.

After 2024, if someone isn't paying you may comment on them all you like.

For the moment though, your comments are utter rubbish.

Oh, and as for links, BS spouted by Donald, which everyone knows are lies, don't count.

I wonder what Lying Don will say when he's told Obama suggested/requested/directed NATO members to pay more BEFORE him? Probably something like fake fake fake... He is such a liar.  If people remember the adage: You're only as good as your word, guess how "good" the liar will be?