SURVEY: Should teacher's credentials be examined carefully?

[Scott]

There was a recent incident of a  foreign teacher who was accused of abusive behavior toward a student.   The situation was resolved with a wai, but once it became public it appears that the teaching credentials have come under question by immigration.  

 

In your opinion, do you believe foreign teacher's should be vetted more thoroughly?

 

The original story appears here:  

 

Please feel free to leave a comment.  

 

[Suradit69]

Quote

Yes, even if it results in fewer foreign teachers being allowed to teach.

"even if" ???

 

Obviously the intended result would be to have fewer foreigners who are unqualified or temperamentally unsuited to be teachers.  Whether or not it would actually achieve that end is debatable since letters of recommendation  written in the west tend to be subtly worded to protect the persons writing them rather than as a warning to any future employers. 

 

Very few previous employers are likely to write: "John Smith was never convicted of child molestation but everyone thought he was a pervert." 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2017 by Suradit69

[thesetat2013]

Yes, even if it results in fewer foreign teachers being allowed to teach.

"even if" ???
 
Obviously the intended result would be to have fewer foreigners who are unqualified or temperamentally unsuited to be teachers.  Whether or not it would actually achieve that end is debatable since letters of recommendation  written in the west tend to be subtly worded to protect the persons writing them rather than as a warning to any future employers. 
 
Very few previous employers are likely to write: "John Smith was never convicted of child molestation but everyone thought he was a pervert." 
 
 
 

funny you should say this about westerners... when it is more the policy in Asia than in the west.
previous employers in the west would simply refuse to write a letter rather than writing one for some sicko... in Asia they will write it simply to save face.

[lemonjelly]

I think probation periods and references from previous schools rather than relying on certificates earned aeons ago would be more conducive to meeting the supply needs of the industry.

[stubuzz]

If it raises salaries, yes.

[kwilco]

"Yes, even if it results in fewer foreign teachers being allowed to teach." - quite frankly this "even if" totally invalidates the poll. don't TV know how to set a poll question  or was it deliberately loaded??

 

 

The truth is that there needs to be a MUCH more thorough  vetting process for teachers.

 

Firstly a REASONED set of criteria - not just a load of old tosh dreamed up on the spur of the moment.

 

The more red tape, the less effective any process becomes.

 

Quite frankly i'm shocked both by the amount of fraud by teachers - or rather those posing as teachers - and and their employers; the utterly banal approach of immigration and Dept labour to deal with the problem is a joke.

Fraud is rampant only because it is easy to get away with.

 

Whether a degree is necessary to teach conversational English is one issue....but if a country decides it is needed, the least they can do is enforce it.

 

It is SO EASY to spot a fake degree yet the authorities simply don't bother. 

 

Then unnecessary red tape is thrown up - inconsistently, depending on the whim of individuals and each immigration office so that ineptitude and corruption become the norm and hundreds of unsuitable characters become teachers.

 

They also need to review who can start up a language school - the ridiculous restrictions on employing foreigners etc means that private language schools are run on th edge of the law by shonki companies that know nothing about education.

if foreigners were allowed to employ teachers more freely the whole situation would be revolutionised and as in other countries schools would be started by those who actually know about education and in particular ESL.

if Thailand adopted a simple rational appraoch to recruiting teachers the numbers would actually rise and so would thwqualitiy - so long as they bumble through a sea ofunnecessary and only partially enforced regulations they will be unable to recruit good teachers in any number for any length of time.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2017 by kwilco

[car720]

If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

Do they really expect any person with real qualifications to give up a career that is reasonably well remunerated and has ongoing training to come here and work for what they want to pay and under the conditions that they want to provide?  At the same time suffering the petty jealousies which are thrown at them constantly by their Thai colleagues.

All this without even contemplating the risk of taking a short walk off a long balcony every day that they are here.

[Ceruhe]

Just do the same vetting as with taxi drivers and errthing's gonna be A-OK.

[tezzainthailand]

A degree should not be a prerequisite for teaching in Thailand, but a TEFL and a TOEIC test should be, and a refresher TEFL course every four years as well.  By all means, if you have a degree you should have priority to get the best paying jobs, but if you have the talent to teach, a good command of the language and above average grammar, that should be enough to get a gig. 

[car720]

They are paying the same money now as when I first came in 1970 and now they are bitching about the quality of the teachers.  Look first at the quality of the system.  Ask any teacher who has had to use a toilet at their school.

[Gary A]

I voted no because I had two friends who were English teachers. One was well qualified and had all sorts of degrees. The other was an oil field worker who lost his oil field job. The professor was a really poor teacher and the former oil field worker was a great teacher. High education does not necessarily make a good teacher.

[kwilco]

8 minutes ago, car720 said:

If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

Do they really expect any person with real qualifications to give up a career that is reasonably well remunerated and has ongoing training to come here and work for what they want to pay and under the conditions that they want to provide?  At the same time suffering the petty jealousies which are thrown at them constantly by their Thai colleagues.

All this without even contemplating the risk of taking a short walk off a long balcony every day that they are here.

that is a gross oversimplification of the situation - based on a false premise.

[kwilco]

4 minutes ago, Gary A said:

I voted no because I had two friends who were English teachers. One was well qualified and had all sorts of degrees. The other was an oil field worker who lost his oil field job. The professor was a really poor teacher and the former oil field worker was a great teacher. High education does not necessarily make a good teacher.

Sorry but that is purely subjective anecdote and cannot be taken seriously.

 

The fact is that the LAW is not only not being enforced, but it is also an ASS.

your approach does not address any of the issues - you just claim one teacher to be "better" in your eyes than another.

[leither69]

Why is this question even being asked!!

[quandow]

Until the LOS gets serious about its educational system, it's getting the quality of teachers  it deserves.

[Gary A]

19 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Sorry but that is purely subjective anecdote and cannot be taken seriously.

 

The fact is that the LAW is not only not being enforced, but it is also an ASS.

your approach does not address any of the issues - you just claim one teacher to be "better" in your eyes than another.

 

I guess I am wrong. I had mistakenly thought that the issue was students who learned English and students who didn't.

[smotherb]

1 hour ago, Suradit69 said:

"even if" ???

 

Obviously the intended result would be to have fewer foreigners who are unqualified or temperamentally unsuited to be teachers.  Whether or not it would actually achieve that end is debatable since letters of recommendation  written in the west tend to be subtly worded to protect the persons writing them rather than as a warning to any future employers. 

 

Very few previous employers are likely to write: "John Smith was never convicted of child molestation but everyone thought he was a pervert." 

 

 

 

In academia, letters of recommendation are rarely the sole determinant.  Academic certifications are usually focused on more unbiased forms like official transcripts of the teacher's grades from their alma mater(s) and the teacher's student and school administrator's evaluation of their previous classroom and academic performance.

 

Also, a police report and psychological evaluation should also be required.

Edited June 4, 2017 by smotherb
to add criminal or suspect behavior

[DP25]

No, because the entire idea of requiring a degree for native speakers in Thailand is ridiculous.  98% of Thai English teachers FAILED the English competency exam given by the government.  Only 900 out of 43,000 teachers passed, only 6 passed at a near native speaker rate.  The vast majority of Thai English teacher CAN NOT SPEAK ENGLISH.  

 

Thai students need to be exposed to someone, at least once during their education, that can actually speak the language they are learning.  Criminal background checks should be required in all cases, and a TEFL to learn basic teaching methods, but restricting to a degree just means that only the children of the elite will ever be able to learn English.  Perhaps that's what they want though, keep the poor in their place.

 

Furthermore, Thailand is already experiencing a shortage of degree qualified teachers because of the pitiful wages.  Why teach in Thailand for 10 month, 30,000 baht contracts, when a college graduate can go to China and get 70,000 or more a month, 2 months paid vacation, and free housing and airfare home every year?  Thailand has the lowest wages in Asia for English teachers, they need to lower their requirements.  Instead they need to ensure criminal background checks for all teachers, to weed at as many scumbags as they can.  As of now a criminal at home can show a clean local Thai background check and get a job, this is what they should be focusing on.

Edited June 4, 2017 by DP25

[smotherb]

55 minutes ago, lemonjelly said:

I think probation periods and references from previous schools rather than relying on certificates earned aeons ago would be more conducive to meeting the supply needs of the industry.

Almost all academic institutions, even here, use probationary periods for new faculty--whether that period is actually mentioned or not varies. References from former colleagues serves no better purpose than they do in any industry--if a prospective employer requires references, who do you ask; someone who will give you a bad reference or a friend who will give you a good one?

[simon43]

Quote

 

Quite frankly i'm shocked both by the amount of fraud by teachers
 

 

 

I agree.  If the teacher is prepared to commit fraud to get the job, it doesn't say much about their level of morals or honesty.

 

OTOH, I do not agree that having a degree is necessary to teach English in a government school. One has to be realistic here, bearing in mind the costs to obtain a degree and the salaries on offer by government schools.

 

IMHO, it is much more important that the teacher possesses an in-class (not online)TEFL qualification with in-class teaching practice, speaks English with a clear accent and has training in classroom management techniques (especially for those who will teach children and teens).

 

I'd like to see all foreign teachers sit (and pass) a test of basic English grammar, punctuation and vocabulary, before they are allowed to teach in a government school.

 

As a point of comment, in all the schools where I have taught (in Thailand, Laos and Myanmar), no school has ever checked my qualifications ==> 3 degrees plus numerous CPD teaching certificates).

Edited June 4, 2017 by simon43

[sanukjim]

Only if Thailand wants to send 80% of their teachers home.

[smotherb]

57 minutes ago, stubuzz said:

If it raises salaries, yes.

The only way more stringent certification will raise salaries is if qualified applicants refuse to work for current salaries. There will always be some who are willing to work in "paradise" and those who can fake their credentials. 

[smotherb]

8 minutes ago, simon43 said:

 

I agree.  If the teacher is prepared to commit fraud to get the job, it doesn't say much about their level of morals or honesty.

 

OTOH, I do not agree that having a degree is necessary to teach English in a government school. One has to be realistic here, bearing in mind the costs to obtain a degree and the salaries on offer by government schools.

 

IMHO, it is much more important that the teacher possesses an in-class (not online)TEFL qualification with in-class teaching practice, speaks English with a clear accent and has training in classroom management techniques (especially for those who will teach children and teens).

 

I'd like to see all foreign teachers sit (and pass) a test of basic English grammar, punctuation and vocabulary, before they are allowed to teach in a government school.

 

As a point of comment, in all the schools where I have taught (in Thailand, Laos and Myanmar), no school has ever checked my qualifications ==> 3 degrees plus numerous CPD teaching certificates).

Oh please, while I agree with the precept that falsifying your qualifications is abhorrent; how many prospective employees in all industries have exaggerated about their degrees, certifications, experience and knowledge?

 

The salaries offered in most industries are what the prospective employees will bear--simple supply and demand. Here in Thailand you have a great supply of people who can speak English and who are willing to take a small teacher's salary to just exist here. If you hire those sorts of people, the current situation is what you get.

 

Consequently, a degree serves a purpose, if nothing more than culling the heard. Certainly, certifications like the TEFL can be useful in providing basic teacher's training for those with non-teaching degrees. However, I disagree that classroom study is the only way to learn, but I agree that a test to prove English language proficiency should be mandatory. That would certainly cull the supply heard, would it not. 

 

The fact that you admit your credentials were never checked in three countries in SEA only proves the demand for anyone who can speak English.

 

I had a friend in Vietnam many years ago who hired an old dragon of a bar girl to be his housekeeper and the nanny for his kids--his reasoning was that she could speak English, so could help teach his kids and she performed all sorts of other duties in addition to keeping the house. His two kids entered international school knowing the basics of English--alphabet, numbers, colors, animals, many other nouns and verbs, and they had the ability to write their names and address; mostly all taught by the aging dragon.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2017 by smotherb
to comment on another area of his response

[Fulwell53]

It's not simply about whether they have a degree or other proven ability/experience to teach.

That they are appropriate adults with no record of abuse in other jurisdictions is / should also  be proven .

In Oz to work in schools, hospitals  or anywhere that children may be subjected to the presence of an adult a working with children card ( wwc) is mandatory in tandem with a police clearance. It is very rigorous and has to be renewed every 3 years. 

Problem is bad  people slip under the net like saville  and harris ( even in that shangri la of perfect society the uk ) but some rigour in the checks would certainly deter a goodly proportion of potential wrong uns.

Of course a degree is a good indicator of ability but I know for a fact there are many english teachers with just a 4wk tefl course under their belt who do a fine job.

The money angle is a red herring in my opinion. 35k  thb pm is an amount many  can more than survive on unless you're a bar rat of course.

[abrahamzvi]

1 hour ago, Suradit69 said:

"even if" ???

 

Obviously the intended result would be to have fewer foreigners who are unqualified or temperamentally unsuited to be teachers.  Whether or not it would actually achieve that end is debatable since letters of recommendation  written in the west tend to be subtly worded to protect the persons writing them rather than as a warning to any future employers. 

 

Very few previous employers are likely to write: "John Smith was never convicted of child molestation but everyone thought he was a pervert." 

 

 

 

What really surprise me and make me wonder if laws and regulations are really abided by, is the fact that quite a few of the English teachers, particularly in government school are not really teachers. They take a 3 months course, pass a Toefel test and they work, or are officially employed by agencies who hire them to government schools. Quite a few of them have no academic degree in any field. They mostly earn more than qualified Thai English teachers with either a Bachelors or even Masters degrees in teaching English as a foreign languages, Is this correct and just, or in the interest of the Thai pupils???

[rkidlad]

The onus is on the schools to employ suitably qualified teachers. If they can't find teachers with degrees, etc, for 35k, the school goes without. It's a very simple. Go and cry to someone who cares.

 

You get what you pay for in life. You employ bad teachers then that's all on you. Pay up or shut up. 

 

When my old boss kept employing complete f****** idiots and then asking me why they're idiots because I was a normal one, my reply was simple, "You employed these people. They have nothing to do with me". Just typical BS of wanting to be the boss, wanting to look powerful and important, but being too lazy and feckless to actually do your job. 

[wow64]

If they don't have some type of teachers degree or certification they should not be teaching children. Just because you are now in a south East Asian country this doesn't mean the rules you previously lived under don't apply.

[Rhys]

Well, the school and specifically the HR have the responsibility to ensure the teacher is qualified.   By the sound of that teacher and his boss, it was not so.   There was a comment about the Ph.D  and all the alphabet behind their names, that is great for research, but sadly at times, those Ph.Ds. lack the in-class skills and desire to teach ...they can't be bothered with it as they are doing research.... and then again there are some for are just excellent.   Additionally, the English volunteer as a teacher would be great for conversational practice but would lack the specific knowledge on teaching approaches.   It is a mixed situation and totally dependent on your situation,  some Thai English teachers are quite good and excellent and then again some are not, some non-native English teachers are good and some are not...      This is why the teaching demonstration is important.

[Jeremy50]

About one third of foreign teachers in Thailand are on a fake degree, or have submitted a lesser qualification such as a diploma, as a degree. As has been pointed out a TEFL certificate is much more important, but Thai schools fail to accept this, so often you get a teacher on a fake degree, who also has no TEFL.  A CELTA  is the top TEFL qualification, and taken in the UK, involves 6 weeks of extremely hard work, about 20% of the candidates fail.

To fully check a UK degree's provenance with a UK university , requires written permission from the degree holder. Good luck with that.

[tonray]

I actually believe that the use of native speakers is wasting mass resources. I taught high school and I would estimate that out of a 40 person class, no more than 5 to 10 percent would ever gain enough proficiency to carry on a conversation or understand what I was saying to them.

 

Using assessment testing, that 5 to 10 % of students should be given a qualified, NES to practice and get them to fluency. By high school the rest either do not want to learn or just cannot and you can still them English conversation class but don't waste teacher resources. Have them sit in front of a video course....they will do no worse than they do now. The 5 to 10 % will get needed attention because now the teacher will not have to handle behavior and dumb down the whole lesson for the 95% who have no chance of speaking or learning anything beyond "Teacher, go to Toilet ?"

 

You can reduce the need for teachers, allocating a better salary for someone qualified to teach small classes of interested students. Then you can use the resources saved and hire someone to produce some professional taped lessons for the 95%. If they somehow happen to survive and learn something, then assessment testing will get them the live teacher next term.

 

As it stands now, very few students get any proficiency and teachers have to do too much babysitting. Let the kids who have demonstrated proficiency get focused lessons and let the rest prove themselves before wasting resources on an outcome we already know in advance.