Non Immigrant O

[My Friend Same]

This is a really good and important thread. Of course the goal here is to come up with a long term solution for girlx's visa problem and no doubt this can help others. 1st I would like to say that I agree with much of what Livinlos has said in this thread even though he offers no solution but does speak the reality of it and obviously has 1st hand knowledge of its severity. Kudos to you, Livin.

Next we have a possible solution offered by mouse and this is a great suggestion indeed. If girlx can come up with the 84K for that work permit then she's on easy street with that nice NON-IM B. However 84K is a lot of cash to shell but if available then I say shell. Thanks Mouse

I will offer up a 3rd and perhaps best solution and one that requires zero cash whatsoever. This is clearly what girlx should do and she is super lucky as no man has this option. girlx, simply marry a Thai. A lot of us guys have done this to solve our visa problem and we need financial resources on top of that. You should get yourself a Thai husband and visa situation solved. I'm sure a lot of women here can introduce you to good candidates. sbk?

[davidbkk]

OK then let me say it this way..

If there is a valid visa class for a non O for visiting friends and family why can I not get one from local embassys, or even my home embassy.. Surely under appeal I could get one if there is actually a valid reason to be issued one ??

That's why I say there is not a valid visa class !!! If there was they would have to give me one..

Just because some places are slack, doesn't make a real visa class does it ?? You may as well say that 'hey this embassy made a mistake and gave me a 3 year visa when they shouldn't have.,.. Now there's a 3 year non imm O.. There isn't !! only mistakes are made and some consuls push the envelope.

I know theres slack consuls, I use them myself.. But that doesn't mean its a real valid reason for application.

I thought "O" just stood for 'other' and it would be up to each consulate to decide whether to allow an application or not. Some allow certain things and others dont. Same as some consulates will give you multi-entry 'O's or double-entry tourist visas and others wont. I think they can choose to accept or decline anything they want to. I heard you had to go to your home country to show that you werent a wanted criminal or something and they could also do a criminal record check. If they make concrete rules, people just find a way round them anyway, I think they want grey areas sometimes, so they can up and down things as they want.

[lopburi3]

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs sets guidelines and Consulates are able to tailor, within limits, to local conditions. The last time the MFA website was updated the "visiting friends" had been removed and only "family" was listed for a non immigrant O visa. But currently the web site appears to be under an update so perhaps it will be returned in due course.

[loong]

I will offer up a 3rd and perhaps best solution and one that requires zero cash whatsoever. This is clearly what girlx should do and she is super lucky as no man has this option. girlx, simply marry a Thai. A lot of us guys have done this to solve our visa problem and we need financial resources on top of that. You should get yourself a Thai husband and visa situation solved. I'm sure a lot of women here can introduce you to good candidates. sbk?

?????????????????????????????????????????

How would this solve the problem?

Marrying a Thai does not automatically entitle residency.

It would entitle to apply for 1 year extension of non imm visa, but would have to show income and very difficult to get

Edited December 28, 2006 by loong

[Mahout Angrit]

As I recall the Sunbelt story it was more to the tune of "we always knock first" so "if the computer is not on the work site we would not know about it".

Yes and I think you can add the 'unsaid' bit which probably goes something like "and so we wont be wasting our time checking" I think the OP is as safe doing her "work" as the retiree is "working" at painting his home. We know it's illegal but nobody really cares (except a few in this thread!). As the forum is designed as a mutual help site perhaps some could give the OP some friendly advice on how she can continue in Thailand instead of finger wagging and telling her what she already knows.

[sbk]

I will offer up a 3rd and perhaps best solution and one that requires zero cash whatsoever. This is clearly what girlx should do and she is super lucky as no man has this option. girlx, simply marry a Thai. A lot of us guys have done this to solve our visa problem and we need financial resources on top of that. You should get yourself a Thai husband and visa situation solved. I'm sure a lot of women here can introduce you to good candidates. sbk?

Sorry, I wouldn't do that to another human being. I married for love, not because I was looking for an easy way to stay in Thailand

[My Friend Same]

I was talking about girlx finding that love of her life like so many have done in Thailand

[loong]

OK then let me say it this way..

If there is a valid visa class for a non O for visiting friends and family why can I not get one from local embassys, or even my home embassy.. Surely under appeal I could get one if there is actually a valid reason to be issued one ??

That's why I say there is not a valid visa class !!! If there was they would have to give me one..

Just because some places are slack, doesn't make a real visa class does it ?? You may as well say that 'hey this embassy made a mistake and gave me a 3 year visa when they shouldn't have.,.. Now there's a 3 year non imm O.. There isn't !! only mistakes are made and some consuls push the envelope.

I know theres slack consuls, I use them myself.. But that doesn't mean its a real valid reason for application.

I thought "O" just stood for 'other' and it would be up to each consulate to decide whether to allow an application or not. Some allow certain things and others dont. Same as some consulates will give you multi-entry 'O's or double-entry tourist visas and others wont. I think they can choose to accept or decline anything they want to. I heard you had to go to your home country to show that you werent a wanted criminal or something and they could also do a criminal record check. If they make concrete rules, people just find a way round them anyway, I think they want grey areas sometimes, so they can up and down things as they want.

Agree with you

Consuls in Asia decide not to issue anything more than a tourist visa, tho they could just as easy issue non imm, so to my mind the Asian cosulates are being slack. LivininLOS seems a bit on the angry side - maybe frustrated with not being able to get a visa easily. I am happy that I am lucky enough to be able to get a non imm easily during my yearly visits to family in UK, but it does seem that The Thai government is doing all they can to shut the door in our faces.!

I was planning on getting a retirement extension this year, but that appears to be pot luck now. So many people are being turned down.

There may come a time when I will have to move on to pastures new, as I get the inpression thaat the powers to be in Thailand really don't want us here.

[loong]

My Friend Same

I see that you have posted again but did not answer my question. How would marrying a Thai help the OP's situation? Do you know something we don't?

[lopburi3]

I was planning on getting a retirement extension this year, but that appears to be pot luck now. So many people are being turned down.

What are you talking about? I follow this forum very closely and I do not get the impression anyone requesting a retirement extension of stay and meeting the requirements is being turned down.

[Lite Beer]

I was talking about girlx finding that love of her life like so many have done in Thailand

No. You suggested she marry a Thai to get a visa the same as a lot of us guys have done. I married my wife because I love her and want to stay with her the rest of my life.

[LivinLOS]

Dont women get a much better deal when marrying a Thai guy than guys marrying a TG ??

Seem to recal they get fast track (instant PR) or similar..

[LivinLOS]

OK then let me say it this way..

If there is a valid visa class for a non O for visiting friends and family why can I not get one from local embassys, or even my home embassy.. Surely under appeal I could get one if there is actually a valid reason to be issued one ??

That's why I say there is not a valid visa class !!! If there was they would have to give me one..

Just because some places are slack, doesn't make a real visa class does it ?? You may as well say that 'hey this embassy made a mistake and gave me a 3 year visa when they shouldn't have.,.. Now there's a 3 year non imm O.. There isn't !! only mistakes are made and some consuls push the envelope.

I know theres slack consuls, I use them myself.. But that doesn't mean its a real valid reason for application.

I thought "O" just stood for 'other' and it would be up to each consulate to decide whether to allow an application or not. Some allow certain things and others dont. Same as some consulates will give you multi-entry 'O's or double-entry tourist visas and others wont. I think they can choose to accept or decline anything they want to. I heard you had to go to your home country to show that you werent a wanted criminal or something and they could also do a criminal record check. If they make concrete rules, people just find a way round them anyway, I think they want grey areas sometimes, so they can up and down things as they want.

Agree with you

Consuls in Asia decide not to issue anything more than a tourist visa, tho they could just as easy issue non imm, so to my mind the Asian cosulates are being slack. LivininLOS seems a bit on the angry side - maybe frustrated with not being able to get a visa easily. I am happy that I am lucky enough to be able to get a non imm easily during my yearly visits to family in UK, but it does seem that The Thai government is doing all they can to shut the door in our faces.!

I was planning on getting a retirement extension this year, but that appears to be pot luck now. So many people are being turned down.

There may come a time when I will have to move on to pastures new, as I get the inpression thaat the powers to be in Thailand really don't want us here.

I am not angry.. I just find it frustrating when a poster assumes because they have a slack consul (as do I) that this is fine and dandy for everyone even when many countries dont have slack consuls.. Certainly I am not pretending it isnt hard to 'trick the system' though I do think its kinda pathetic that the rules are so partially enforced.. Create a good working system and enforce it 100% according to the letter of the law.

Same goes when a poster working in Thailand wants to claim they have no need for a WP.. Just because it suits people to read the rules to their benefit and not then not comply, pay their Thai taxes, etc.. You want to work here then stick to the rules and get a work permit from the ministry of labour.. If thats too costly then either leave or find a better paying gig.

Thems the rules.. Sticking to them seems the simplest.

When telecommuters can get work permit exemptions then thats a fine way out.. though as yet I have never actually found one person living here all the time and working here remotely who has one.. Until then I presume working a job in Thailand is exactly that and requires a WP.

[Lite Beer]

Dont women get a much better deal when marrying a Thai guy than guys marrying a TG ??

Seem to recal they get fast track (instant PR) or similar..

I think they do not have to show income as the husband supports her.

[sbk]

There is no instant PR and the myth that farang women automatically qualify for citizenship is just that, a myth.

A Thai husband does not have to show the same income requirements as a farang husband since they do not have the same problems getting a home or finding a job in their own country.

All the same, 'my friend same', it is a very crass suggestion and one that many farang men should find as offensive as I do.

As for the rest of the lectures as to how Consulates choose to apply the rules, again, it has nothing to do with girlx's problem -- to which, apparently, no one has an answer.

[LivinLOS]

Sure there was.. Form a treaty of amity company.. Get a non imm B and WP.. Make herself legal.. Pay her income tax..

Strange how the myth of female advantage has been around so much.. I could have sworn a couple of years back there was a court case which was deciding if it was discrimination that women had more rights after marriage than men.. The case of course decided it wasnt but I do remember the case being brought.

Edited December 28, 2006 by LivinLOS

[sbk]

Sure there was.. Form a treaty of amity company.. Get a non imm B and WP.. Make herself legal.. Pay her income tax..

My mistake, I could have sworn her question was about trying to find some place in Asia to apply for a non-imm O visa.

[LivinLOS]

OK sorry..

But as I said there is no non imm O visa class for her Kinda my point earlier.

But she can get a non imm B and make herself legal all at the same time.. Still non imm and many birds with one stone.

AFAIK none of the asian local consuls or embassys are in any way easy.. I heard some even giving only single entry non imms now instead of multiples even for those that do have a non imm class for them. Does this mean 90 day visa runs are about to get harder also ??

[girlx]

I will offer up a 3rd and perhaps best solution and one that requires zero cash whatsoever. This is clearly what girlx should do and she is super lucky as no man has this option. girlx, simply marry a Thai.

ha- no thanks. i won't even marry a farang. anyway sbk and i are probably pulling from much the same pool, and there ain't no love of my life in it, i know that already. i would never marry if i wasn't even in love with the guy.

Same goes when a poster working in Thailand wants to claim they have no need for a WP.. Just because it suits people to read the rules to their benefit and not then not comply, pay their Thai taxes, etc.. You want to work here then stick to the rules and get a work permit from the ministry of labour..

it seems to be it suits you to read the rules to your benefit just as much as i am doing for mine. which is my point.

[LivinLOS]

it seems to be it suits you to read the rules to your benefit just as much as i am doing for mine. which is my point.

meaning ??

I am on a long stay visa.. I dont work..

Which rules are you referring to..

[loong]

I was planning on getting a retirement extension this year, but that appears to be pot luck now. So many people are being turned down.

What are you talking about? I follow this forum very closely and I do not get the impression anyone requesting a retirement extension of stay and meeting the requirements is being turned down.

I know of people who have had their applications turned down for the following points........

Not having had 800,000 Baht on deposit for 3 months prior to application - I believe that the immigration dept is supposed to give a 3 month temporary extention and then check that the funds are still there, but as always it is up to the official to interpret the rules the way he sees fit!

Having had 800,000 Baht on deposit for 1 year with no movement of funds in or out. - immigration wanted to know how he was supporting himself, assumed that he must be working and refused to renew the visa extention.

I do not get the impression anyone requesting a retirement extension of stay and meeting the requirements is being turned down

That's the thing - meeting the requirements - if the immigration official does not agree with your interpretation of the rules you could be refused even if you do everything right!

It also seems that they add or change requirements all the time so evryone gets confused

Edited December 29, 2006 by loong

[Tod Daniels]

While this thread is somehwat interesting up to a point, it does little to answer girlx's the OP of the thread and her question about acquiring a Non-Immigrant Type O Multi Entry Visa.

While many people MAY choose to whine about consulates 'bending the rules', while stating they too use 'friendly consulates', the 'do as I say not as I do' advice rings somewhat shallow. The Thai Consulates abroad are what they are, they do what they do, and that's that.

Outside of the immediate vicinity of the glorious "Land 'O Thais", meaning outside S/E Asia, the consulates are far more user friendly. You can split hairs all you want about ethics. All that matters is at the end of the day you have the correct visa in your passport so the wonderful munchkins at the entrance to the glorious "Land 'O Thais" amusement park let you in. They look at you with a bored expression, stare at your passport like it is the first time they've ever seen one, stand idly by a few seconds or minutes depending on their mood, then stamp you in, and you are on your way.

While I clearly sense the paranoia which has swept the board with the new enforcement of the visa laws, I don't see too many actually constructive posts to her in actually acquiring the visa she asked about. Should she have a work permit? It is hardly the job of the posters on this forum to be Immigration Police and TELL her what she HAS to do. It's as are all things in this oh-so nonsensical, wacky, wonderful place; Up 2 Her.

From what I can glean in reading the consensus on this thread I suggest you immediately do the following;

1) Run out & start an Amity Company

2) Quickly retain a high price lawyer

3) But first find & marry a thai guy

IF she follows that evidently she's got all her bases covered BUT wait she still has not gotten her Non-Immigrant Visa which is what she asked about, hmmm go figure . .. ...

Shortly after we'd read an article on the last page of the Nation News about how she shot herself twice in the head, with her hands tied behind her back & a plastic bag taped over her head. Oh my, yet another tragic farang suicide. ..

"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, in the glorious "Land 'O Thais" everyone is the real Wizard".*

*paraphrased quote from the Wizard of Oz used without permission

Getting the visa you seek is not nearly as hard as you might think. It does require the use of first world intelligence. Unfortunately after any length of time here, that can be compromised by having to dummy yourself down to a third world mentality. Correction I mean a “developing” third world mentality, sorry for the inaccuracy.

Good Luck,

ท้อด แดเนียลส์: กรุงเทพมหานคร

Tod Daniels; Krung Thep Mahanakhon

Edited December 29, 2006 by tod-daniels

[lopburi3]

I was planning on getting a retirement extension this year, but that appears to be pot luck now. So many people are being turned down.

What are you talking about? I follow this forum very closely and I do not get the impression anyone requesting a retirement extension of stay and meeting the requirements is being turned down.

I know of people who have had their applications turned down for the following points........

Not having had 800,000 Baht on deposit for 3 months prior to application - I believe that the immigration dept is supposed to give a 3 month temporary extention and then check that the funds are still there, but as always it is up to the official to interpret the rules the way he sees fit!

Having had 800,000 Baht on deposit for 1 year with no movement of funds in or out. - immigration wanted to know how he was supporting himself, assumed that he must be working and refused to renew the visa extention.

I do not get the impression anyone requesting a retirement extension of stay and meeting the requirements is being turned down

That's the thing - meeting the requirements - if the immigration official does not agree with your interpretation of the rules you could be refused even if you do everything right!

It also seems that they add or change requirements all the time so evryone gets confused

The requirement is that the funds be in bank for a period of three months prior to application. The old marriage bank rule was that the money had to remain in the account until final approval. And bank activity was often closely checked for these.

Immigration has been accepting fixed deposit and foreign currency accounts recently - how long ago was this case of no activity/no visa extension?

You are right things do often change and not all rules are interperted the same but retirement seems to be very much a cake walk for most.

[girlx]

so hmm i take it that no one here has ever been able to acquire a non-im O visa for the purpose of visiting friends and relatives, from a consulate in asia?

[lopburi3]

Any Consulate will issue to visit "relatives"/family. But friends is not listed as a reason for issue. The official MFA website lists as follows:

other activities (Category "O") as follows:

to stay with the family, to perfrom duties for the state enterprise or social welfare organizations, to stay after retirement for the elderly, to receive medical treatment, to be a sport coach as required by Thai Government, to be a contestant or witness for the judicial process.

Perhaps if you are including Australia it would be possible but do not believe any place closer will issue on the friends provision.

[LivinLOS]

Anyone played with the definition of relatives ??

Like visiting a farang relative living in Thailand.

Or visiting my sister in law (wife died) ?? Or nieces etc.

Just curious on if they have a definition of family and if my sister in law is family (she is to me whatever)..

[Sunny Valentine]

About the Company and WP route Livinlos is so heavyly promoting here .....

A friend living here in Pattaya did a check on this possibility recently.

Start Up costs: Around 30000 (including fees) cheapest for 2 Mill Bt Company. He most likely would also now have to show the capital as paid in.

WP costs: About 15000 was the cheapest quote he got, including all the side expenses that seem to occur especially in Chonburi, as the Labor Dept Official does not like the Photos and demands new ones, or cannot read a photocopied page and demands new Copies (although he even has the Originals temporarily on file when this happened (to me when I applied for mine.... and more)

As most residential rent contracts forbid the use of the house or condo for business, add another 3000 or a bit more a month for renting a "virtual office".

Then there is the costs for bookkeeping and Annual Balance, another 50000 to rather 60000 a Year.

Depending on the situation, between 1 and 4 Thais employed, another 2200 Bt a month for Social Welfare. Plus one time registration fees of around 4000 Bt.

Taxes for the WP holder: about 4500 a month including Social Welfare.

No chance for a 1 Year extension in the first 15 to 18 month, so pencil in another 6 Visa trips to SE countries for a 3 month B Visa, at approx. 12000 per trip.

6 temporary WP extensions at approx 2000 - 3000 Bt each.

In short:

Start Up costs (One time):

50000 Bt

Annual Costs first Year:

about 220 000 Bt.

Annual Costs 2nd and consecutive Years (assuming you meet the qualifications for annual WP extension) about 160000 Bt., and rising.

Plus Company taxes.

Also been told from this lawyer that Chonburi Labor Department as well as Immigration might consider the process illegal, as the Company does only trade and accumulate income from sources outside Thailand. He (the lawyer) has no clues why this would not be ok, but you can#t argue with an official going mad, can you?)

Plus the fact that Companies like this are illegal, or at least dark grey, anyway, unless of course you find a Thai person really holding 51%.

So, all in all, a very costly, burdensome and possibly illegal (or law-bending) structure. Keeping this money available for possible pay-outs might help more.

Taxasion of the OPs foreign income is a matter of the double Taxation treatment USA and Thailand only. Taxation of the Company's income is solely a matter of Thai taxation. So this also has to be scrutinized before making a suggestion.

Sunny

PS Livinlos, how come that Embassies not issuing Multiple B Visas for WP holders with tax documentation are not bending the rules, for instance? The answer is the same as the Consuls in Europe might give when asked about giving Multi-O's: It is within their discretion.

Sunny

[LivinLOS]

About the Company and WP route Livinlos is so heavyly promoting here .....

A friend living here in Pattaya did a check on this possibility recently.

Start Up costs: Around 30000 (including fees) cheapest for 2 Mill Bt Company. He most likely would also now have to show the capital as paid in.

WP costs: About 15000 was the cheapest quote he got, including all the side expenses that seem to occur especially in Chonburi, as the Labor Dept Official does not like the Photos and demands new ones, or cannot read a photocopied page and demands new Copies (although he even has the Originals temporarily on file when this happened (to me when I applied for mine.... and more)

As most residential rent contracts forbid the use of the house or condo for business, add another 3000 or a bit more a month for renting a "virtual office".

Then there is the costs for bookkeeping and Annual Balance, another 50000 to rather 60000 a Year.

Depending on the situation, between 1 and 4 Thais employed, another 2200 Bt a month for Social Welfare. Plus one time registration fees of around 4000 Bt.

Taxes for the WP holder: about 4500 a month including Social Welfare.

No chance for a 1 Year extension in the first 15 to 18 month, so pencil in another 6 Visa trips to SE countries for a 3 month B Visa, at approx. 12000 per trip.

6 temporary WP extensions at approx 2000 - 3000 Bt each.

In short:

Start Up costs (One time):

50000 Bt

Annual Costs first Year:

about 220 000 Bt.

Annual Costs 2nd and consecutive Years (assuming you meet the qualifications for annual WP extension) about 160000 Bt., and rising.

Plus Company taxes.

Also been told from this lawyer that Chonburi Labor Department as well as Immigration might consider the process illegal, as the Company does only trade and accumulate income from sources outside Thailand. He (the lawyer) has no clues why this would not be ok, but you can#t argue with an official going mad, can you?)

Plus the fact that Companies like this are illegal, or at least dark grey, anyway, unless of course you find a Thai person really holding 51%.

So, all in all, a very costly, burdensome and possibly illegal (or law-bending) structure. Keeping this money available for possible pay-outs might help more.

Taxasion of the OPs foreign income is a matter of the double Taxation treatment USA and Thailand only. Taxation of the Company's income is solely a matter of Thai taxation. So this also has to be scrutinized before making a suggestion.

Sunny

PS Livinlos, how come that Embassies not issuing Multiple B Visas for WP holders with tax documentation are not bending the rules, for instance? The answer is the same as the Consuls in Europe might give when asked about giving Multi-O's: It is within their discretion.

Sunny

Shes American.. she can make a treaty of Amity company much cheaper than that, and apparently deduct some costs as business expenses from her US taxation (so another poster said, I am not a seppo so cant confirm).. Also Your costs look a fair bit over the top compared to what it would cost me locally to achieve the same ends for a non Amity company, though the 51% Thai rule is a concern.

So it costs a couple hundred k to make yourself legal and not visa run. Well if thats the cost (even though I think your a lot higher than it actually needs to me) then thats what it takes to be legal.

I do agree though that multiple visa's from local consuls will possibly be the next to go, why they can give a B visa and allow someone to come here and just visa run and not pay taxes seems self defeating. By forcing the issue of compliance via the ministry of labour they will force business people in country to extend and therefore check and monitor them. Seems logical next step if they are tightening.

[Pattaya46]

Anyone played with the definition of relatives ??

Like visiting a farang relative living in Thailand.

Or visiting my sister in law (wife died) ?? Or nieces etc.

Just curious on if they have a definition of family and if my sister in law is family (she is to me whatever)..

Hi LivinLOS,

The official text does not use the word "relative".

See §7.18 of http://www.lawyer.th.com/National_Police_O...er_Oct_2006.pdf

In case of being a member of family of the person who has residence in Thailand (Only for the father, mother, marriage couple, ordinary child, adopted child, or a child of the marriage couple)

An other small "innocent" question about this Non-O "for visiting friends" :

Does somebody know if the UK Hull Consulate - by exemple - delivers such a visa to non-UK people ?

I am a French and it's a big NO WAY in all french consulates, and in the Monaco consulate too.

Pattaya46

[Sunny Valentine]

Livinlos, you have a point on the treaty company. I can't see that this changes the overall costs a lot, though, but I am definitely an expert here.

About the tax situation I think you are wrong. Her Us income's taxation would be up to the Double Taxation treatment (which I don't know the details), the company way would be that the Company (instead of herself as a physical person) would then issue invoices to her "employers", therefore the taxation of profits (all above the salary her company would pay her) would be subject to Thai tax. This might be getting more complicated as according to the Tax treaty some authority might consider this as tax evasion, but this is a potentially difficult thing to analyse. I guess a valid expertise from a tax advisor who is familiar with both Thai and US taxation issues would be in the 10s of thousands of US Dollars.

The fact that her employers will have to accept a Thai Company invoice for her services instead of sending her a personal check might also be of some concern.

All other costs should stay the same, yes, you might find an auditor / bookkeeper to do it for a little less, and also the Visa runs could be done by bus/train, and guest houses instead of Hotels to save another maybe 10000 or 20000 baht a year, but that's about it.

Bout b Visas: With the new regualtions all foreigners employed by Start Up Companies (or by Companies that for one reason or the other (and that could mean financilly shaky companies as well as expanding ones, which rather reinvest their earnings instead of keeping them in the books) are facing tghe problem now that no 1 Year extensions can be granted to them. The effect is that they are forced to visit Consulates and Embassies abroad each and every 3 month in order to get a 3 Month B Visa issued. You just can't extend in Country within the first Year or two. And later only when your business is either just printing money, or you make the wrong business decisions, i.e. not investing profits.

Sunny