Stray Dog Problem

[pumpuiman]

A few weeks ago, I had posted some information about sterilizing strays in Pattaya. In doing my initial research I was surprised to find out that the World Health Organization, as well as other respectable sources, support sterilization over killing (for many reasons, discussed in original thread)

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=95347

The problem has remained on my mind since, and I have tried to think of possible solutions. What would it take to get this done, with or without government help?

I sat wondering today, after reading another thread on dog bites.......could we as a group actually brainstorm some viable ideas?

Some of my thoughts:

1. Establish working perimeter,determine approximate amount of strays within that perimeter and divide area in to smaller workable zones.

2. Collect donations from tourists through sales of well designed and marketed t-shirts geared toward tugging at heartstrings, boosting ego's, as well as fullfilling the need for a souvenier.

3. Establishing a trust account that would generate funds, without spending principle.

4. Find veterinarian(s) willing to work on project.

5. Establish approximate cost per dog.

6. Hire team to collect animals.

7. Design and purchase transport vehicle.

8. Tag/tattoo/collar animals for identification.

These are some basic thoughts. Has anyone got any ideas of their own? I would welcome criticism of my ideas, but please offer alternate ideas and dont just bash.

Who knows, maybe we can come up with something real?

[buriramboy]

alternative idea, buy a load of sausages, fry them , let them cool down, slice them open, fill them with paracetamols, then throw them to offending dogs. guaranteed to cure the problem.

BB

[rocky]

I feel that any plan is better than what we have today. I have seen several times since the last thread, farang tourists looking horrified as stray dogs are barking aggressively at them.

Further more I do not like the feel of the stray dogs and the uncertainty that I feel around them

I would be interested to help putting together a more fuller answer to this situation and having time on my hands would be able to give time to help set up a working response to help reduce the problems both for the dogs and the resident-tourists alike.

From responses in threads on this forum, it is obvious that there are many opinions to the dogs and what can be done to help. Therefore I feel that one must tread carefully and get realist ideas for such a project.

[fourbaht]

Less than 20 minutes for BB (Batty Boy) to post his moronic reply.

Pompuiman PM me I would be happy to get together and discuss this in the new year, despite what you might think by reading the Pattaya Forum there are a lot of people who would like to get involved in a humane solution to the problem.

[buriramboy]

twobaht while sterelization may be more humane, have you any idea how many strays there are in Pattaya? i have no accurate figures but i would guess at thousands, and when you have a 3 year old daughter and strays near by, i will continue with my method.

BB

[pumpuiman]

alternative idea, buy a load of sausages, fry them , let them cool down, slice them open, fill them with paracetamols, then throw them to offending dogs. guaranteed to cure the problem.

BB

Actually, no it isn't. Research conducted by the W.H.O. and others has found that killing the animals does not work to solve the problem. Dogs will continue to breed, and immediately fill the void you've created. Sterilization leaves a stable, healthier, non aggressive population to dwindle over time.

I am not a tree hugging activist spouting bullsh1t. These are facts. If killing were an answer I would support it. It is not. It is proven.

Does anyone have any educated ideas as to how to go about sterilization? Or if you support killing the animals, please reference studies showing it's effectivness, I haven't found any.

[fourbaht]

twobaht while sterelization may be more humane, have you any idea how many strays there are in Pattaya? i have no accurate figures but i would guess at thousands, and when you have a 3 year old daughter and strays near by, i will continue with my method.

BB

I doubt you have the balls.. amazing the amount of mouthy farrangs here always shouting about what they will do, how many have you killed so far, lets have some figures..

I have a 9 year old daughter and a 7 year old son both have been with me here all their lives as well as the stray dogs, spend your time looking after your kids and keep them away from the dogs is a good start.

Think before you act would be a second..

[altman]

alternative idea, buy a load of sausages, fry them , let them cool down, slice them open, fill them with paracetamols, then throw them to offending dogs. guaranteed to cure the problem.

BB

Actually, no it isn't. Research conducted by the W.H.O. and others has found that killing the animals does not work to solve the problem. Dogs will continue to breed, and immediately fill the void you've created. Sterilization leaves a stable, healthier, non aggressive population to dwindle over time.

I am not a tree hugging activist spouting bullsh1t. These are facts. If killing were an answer I would support it. It is not. It is proven.

Does anyone have any educated ideas as to how to go about sterilization? Or if you support killing the animals, please reference studies showing it's effectivness, I haven't found any.

well i was initially in favor of BB idea, sut if it really isn't the best solution then how about:

fry the sausages but instead of filling them with paracetamol, (does that really work? how many?), fill them with salt-peter. that seems to keep peoples libidos down so maybe a cheap way to control dogs urges.

[buriramboy]

obviously if the dogs are dead they can not breed, but as there are probably 000's of strays in Pattaya a cull on that magnitude would be grossly inhumane and would probably draw huge critisism from all walks of life.

While i am sure your heart is in the right place, i think the problem will be far to big for you to handle, IMO it needs to be tackled at local government level.

BB

[rocky]

Killing dogs in this manner comes with a cost, on another thread recently, a residents dog died as a result of eating poisoned food left out for the stray dogs. Being a dog owner I understand the dangers of killing animals in such a manner. If many people took to your method people will look on watching their own pet dieing

[pumpuiman]

obviously if the dogs are dead they can not breed, but as there are probably 000's of strays in Pattaya a cull on that magnitude would be grossly inhumane and would probably draw huge critisism from all walks of life.

While i am sure your heart is in the right place, i think the problem will be far to big for you to handle, IMO it needs to be tackled at local government level.

BB

If you have the time, please read the thread provided in a link in the OP. It provides a wealth of information( follow the links within that thread as well)

I thought as you do a couple of months ago, after researching I was otherwise convinced...perhaps you will be too.

Perhaps the problem is too big. But how do we find out? Let's try to look at the problem realistically, as if we, as a group here, were actually put in charge of researching and taking care of the problem......without passing the buck...What's the next step?

[buriramboy]

the next step would be

A) try to get local government help

find out how many strays we are actually talking about

C) find a friendly vet and how much his fees are

D) start collecting volunteers and donations

[loong]

Killing dogs in this manner comes with a cost, on another thread recently, a residents dog died as a result of eating poisoned food left out for the stray dogs. Being a dog owner I understand the dangers of killing animals in such a manner. If many people took to your method people will look on watching their own pet dieing

Surely if this resident's dog could eat food left out for a stray, the owner was allowing it to roam wherever, therefore this dog is (or was) a stray!

I hope that you are a responsible dog owner and do not allow your dog out alone.

[sbk]

pumpuiman, a farang vet working in Hong Kong has established just such an organization you are pondering, here on Koh Phangan. They have been open 5 years and the results are astounding for those of us who remember what it used to be like. They are underfunded and understaffed but have still managed to make immense strides.

If you are interested in contacting them for information check out their website: PAC Thailand . Shevaun, the vet, is very dedicated towards solving the stray population humanely. If she has time she might be able to give you some pointers on starting your own organization in Pattaya.

[pumpuiman]

pumpuiman, a farang vet working in Hong Kong has established just such an organization you are pondering, here on Koh Phangan. They have been open 5 years and the results are astounding for those of us who remember what it used to be like. They are underfunded and understaffed but have still managed to make immense strides.

If you are interested in contacting them for information check out their website: PAC Thailand . Shevaun, the vet, is very dedicated towards solving the stray population humanely. If she has time she might be able to give you some pointers on starting your own organization in Pattaya.

Fantastic people!! Their work shows that it is possible, even with a small number of "employees"

I guess the first step to take is to find a veterinarian willing to take on the task. And also a person or persons who live locally to organize things.

Unfortunately I do not have the means to do so at present....I still have many years to go till retirement here in the U.S. But would be happy to get involved in other ways.

So who knows any vets? Anyone here a Pattaya local with time on their hands, looking for something fullfilling in their life?

[rocky]

Killing dogs in this manner comes with a cost, on another thread recently, a residents dog died as a result of eating poisoned food left out for the stray dogs. Being a dog owner I understand the dangers of killing animals in such a manner. If many people took to your method people will look on watching their own pet dieing

Surely if this resident's dog could eat food left out for a stray, the owner was allowing it to roam wherever, therefore this dog is (or was) a stray!

I hope that you are a responsible dog owner and do not allow your dog out alone.

i never let my dog stray, NEVER, I take it for walks ever day around the estate and also down to the beach etc, the problem is if he was to find a piece of poisened food and eat it while walking with me, if i do not notice,

Think out side the box, things in real life are more than black and white.

DOGS ON LEADS WALKING WITH THEIR OWNER CAN EAT POISONED MEAT

[Little Black Duck]

Four Baht..Someone left your kennel door open again and the babies got out..

Theres a good lad go fetch them before they come to harm...

[fourbaht]

Four Baht..Someone left your kennel door open again and the babies got out..

Theres a good lad go fetch them before they come to harm...

Don't start I am Rotti mode today and just feel like a bit of roast duck

Edited December 28, 2006 by fourbaht

[Little Black Duck]

Four Baht..Someone left your kennel door open again and the babies got out..

Theres a good lad go fetch them before they come to harm...

Don't start I am Rotti mode today and just feel like a bit of roast duck

Tut Tut Tut..My Senior friend(see I didnt call you Old) I was just kidding with you no need to get in a Duck Plucking Mood..

[fourbaht]

Tut Tut Tut..My Senior friend(see I didnt call you Old) I was just kidding with you no need to get in a Duck Plucking Mood

I am probably younger than you !!

[PATTAYAPUNTER]

http://www.pattayapeople.com/default.asp?F...;IdArticle=3702

I've been chased and intimidated. I vote for mass euthanasia of all strays.

[pumpuiman]

http://www.pattayapeople.com/default.asp?F...;IdArticle=3702

I've been chased and intimidated. I vote for mass euthanasia of all strays.

Research shows killing doesn't work. If you find factual evidence to the contrary, please post it.

Since dogs who are removed are quickly replaced, the population does not decrease at all. The main factors leading to dog aggression � migration and mating � continue to exist, so the nuisance factor remains.

Since removal of dogs actually increases dog-related problems, the effective solution is to sterilise the dogs, vaccinate them against rabies and put them back in their own areas.

Q4. But what�s the point of putting the dogs back after sterilisation? Doesn�t the problem just continue?

A4. No, when dogs are sterilised and put back in their own area, the population and the problems caused by dogs both reduce. Here�s how:

* Each dog guards its own territory and does not allow new dogs to enter

* Since they are all neutered, they no longer mate or multiply

* The main factors leading to dog aggression � migration and mating - are eliminated. So dog-fights reduce dramatically

* With the decrease in fighting, bites to humans also decrease

* Since females no longer have pups to protect, this source of dog aggression is also eliminated

* Over a period of time, as the sterilised dogs die natural deaths, the population is greatly reduced.

[Pdaz]

Stray dogs... Grrrrrrrrrrr.......

The most simple solution is a an insectiside called ''methymil'' available cheeply from most ''garden centers'' mixed with a suitable tasty dog food or even in raw sausages it will solve most stray dog probs very efficiently..also works with bothersome barking mutts in your village.. Another solution (some may say more satisfying too) is to purchase a four wheel drive truck (Toyota tiger is a good choice) and once you have spotted a gang of stray dogs head straight for them.. my ''personal best'' is 3 in one go.. As for all the ''dog lovers'' I would suggest you all move up county and take all the strays with you.. Anybody like me who has had to endure living near a stray dog lover would know how I feel.. how does 13 scabby, howling dogs in a two bed townhouse sound.. luckily he has since moved much to the relief of myself and the other neighbors.. Stray dogs are nothing but a pest.. mostly only in existance because of would be dog lovers who discarded them once the novelty had worn off or the dog grew larger than they expected.. Then the problem is made worse by ''do gooders'' feeding the strays which funnily enough leads to yet more strays arriving and then as you know more pups being born... round them all up and euthanaise them all.. fine dog owners who don't take care of their pets and make dog licences compulsory..

[ZZZ]

http://www.pattayapeople.com/default.asp?F...;IdArticle=3702

I've been chased and intimidated. I vote for mass euthanasia of all strays.

Research shows killing doesn't work. If you find factual evidence to the contrary, please post it.

Since dogs who are removed are quickly replaced, the population does not decrease at all. The main factors leading to dog aggression � migration and mating � continue to exist, so the nuisance factor remains.

Since removal of dogs actually increases dog-related problems, the effective solution is to sterilise the dogs, vaccinate them against rabies and put them back in their own areas.

Q4. But what�s the point of putting the dogs back after sterilisation? Doesn�t the problem just continue?

A4. No, when dogs are sterilised and put back in their own area, the population and the problems caused by dogs both reduce. Here�s how:

* Each dog guards its own territory and does not allow new dogs to enter

* Since they are all neutered, they no longer mate or multiply

* The main factors leading to dog aggression � migration and mating - are eliminated. So dog-fights reduce dramatically

* With the decrease in fighting, bites to humans also decrease

* Since females no longer have pups to protect, this source of dog aggression is also eliminated

* Over a period of time, as the sterilised dogs die natural deaths, the population is greatly reduced.

There are a number of flaws in the quoted research. Not surprising as it was compiled by animal welfare organizations.

The main flaw is that it seems to be understood that killing of the strays is a one time thing in a localized area.

Any cull of the strays should be a continuous countrywide operation. If done this way the only new strays would be abandoned domestic dogs, this would be a very small increase compared to the 10 new pups every stray bitch produces every year.

Very few strays survive on garbage in Thailand; they are all fed by someone. Feeding strays should be illegal.

To finance the cull all domestic dogs should be registered and there should be a yearly license fee for dog owners, after all they are responsible for this problem in the first place.

To sterilize the dogs are the same thing as killing them anyway, just a “nicer” way of doing it. The problem is that that to do that with all the strays is impossible, the cost would be staggering and it would take a very long time to accomplish the wanted result.

There are over 500,000 strays in Bangkok and probably about the same in rural greater Pattaya.

Sure, along a culling program there could also be an adoption program where the few healthy strays could be taken care of.

[wilko]

twobaht while sterelization may be more humane, have you any idea how many strays there are in Pattaya? i have no accurate figures but i would guess at thousands, and when you have a 3 year old daughter and strays near by, i will continue with my method.

BB

A cursory glance around Pattaya would seem to suggest that your "method" hasn't made one iota of a difference.

Pumpuiman - good luck with the project...it has been tried before but I'm told the funds were snaffled.

[buriramboy]

my method works very well in the vicinity of my house, thank you.

BB

[wilko]

http://www.pattayapeople.com/default.asp?F...;IdArticle=3702

I've been chased and intimidated. I vote for mass euthanasia of all strays.

Research shows killing doesn't work. If you find factual evidence to the contrary, please post it.

Since dogs who are removed are quickly replaced, the population does not decrease at all. The main factors leading to dog aggression � migration and mating � continue to exist, so the nuisance factor remains.

Since removal of dogs actually increases dog-related problems, the effective solution is to sterilise the dogs, vaccinate them against rabies and put them back in their own areas.

Q4. But what�s the point of putting the dogs back after sterilisation? Doesn�t the problem just continue?

A4. No, when dogs are sterilised and put back in their own area, the population and the problems caused by dogs both reduce. Here�s how:

* Each dog guards its own territory and does not allow new dogs to enter

* Since they are all neutered, they no longer mate or multiply

* The main factors leading to dog aggression � migration and mating - are eliminated. So dog-fights reduce dramatically

* With the decrease in fighting, bites to humans also decrease

* Since females no longer have pups to protect, this source of dog aggression is also eliminated

* Over a period of time, as the sterilised dogs die natural deaths, the population is greatly reduced.

There are a number of flaws in the quoted research. Not surprising as it was compiled by animal welfare organizations.

The main flaw is that it seems to be understood that killing of the strays is a one time thing in a localized area.

Any cull of the strays should be a continuous countrywide operation. If done this way the only new strays would be abandoned domestic dogs, this would be a very small increase compared to the 10 new pups every stray bitch produces every year.

Very few strays survive on garbage in Thailand; they are all fed by someone. Feeding strays should be illegal.

To finance the cull all domestic dogs should be registered and there should be a yearly license fee for dog owners, after all they are responsible for this problem in the first place.

To sterilize the dogs are the same thing as killing them anyway, just a “nicer” way of doing it. The problem is that that to do that with all the strays is impossible, the cost would be staggering and it would take a very long time to accomplish the wanted result.

There are over 500,000 strays in Bangkok and probably about the same in rural greater Pattaya.

Sure, along a culling program there could also be an adoption program where the few healthy strays could be taken care of.

i sorry but there's no suggestion of it being "one off" killing. But think what a continuous killing program in Pattaya wouls entail. people running round firing off guns in public places all year round...not very condusive to tourism....there' no final solution......look at the history of the expression.....furtgermore many of the dogs have owners....how do you tell which is which.

If you capture the dogs and take them away for killing, they will immediately be replaced by other animals and you will still have unsterilised dogs increasing the population.

[my friend I]

When I used to live in The north east a truck from Sakon Nakhon would regularly come around & swap a bucket or something similar for a dog. Good system & everyone was happy.

[ZZZ]

http://www.pattayapeople.com/default.asp?F...;IdArticle=3702

I've been chased and intimidated. I vote for mass euthanasia of all strays.

Research shows killing doesn't work. If you find factual evidence to the contrary, please post it.

Since dogs who are removed are quickly replaced, the population does not decrease at all. The main factors leading to dog aggression � migration and mating � continue to exist, so the nuisance factor remains.

Since removal of dogs actually increases dog-related problems, the effective solution is to sterilise the dogs, vaccinate them against rabies and put them back in their own areas.

Q4. But what�s the point of putting the dogs back after sterilisation? Doesn�t the problem just continue?

A4. No, when dogs are sterilised and put back in their own area, the population and the problems caused by dogs both reduce. Here�s how:

* Each dog guards its own territory and does not allow new dogs to enter

* Since they are all neutered, they no longer mate or multiply

* The main factors leading to dog aggression � migration and mating - are eliminated. So dog-fights reduce dramatically

* With the decrease in fighting, bites to humans also decrease

* Since females no longer have pups to protect, this source of dog aggression is also eliminated

* Over a period of time, as the sterilised dogs die natural deaths, the population is greatly reduced.

There are a number of flaws in the quoted research. Not surprising as it was compiled by animal welfare organizations.

The main flaw is that it seems to be understood that killing of the strays is a one time thing in a localized area.

Any cull of the strays should be a continuous countrywide operation. If done this way the only new strays would be abandoned domestic dogs, this would be a very small increase compared to the 10 new pups every stray bitch produces every year.

Very few strays survive on garbage in Thailand; they are all fed by someone. Feeding strays should be illegal.

To finance the cull all domestic dogs should be registered and there should be a yearly license fee for dog owners, after all they are responsible for this problem in the first place.

To sterilize the dogs are the same thing as killing them anyway, just a “nicer” way of doing it. The problem is that that to do that with all the strays is impossible, the cost would be staggering and it would take a very long time to accomplish the wanted result.

There are over 500,000 strays in Bangkok and probably about the same in rural greater Pattaya.

Sure, along a culling program there could also be an adoption program where the few healthy strays could be taken care of.

i sorry but there's no suggestion of it being "one off" killing. But think what a continuous killing program in Pattaya wouls entail. people running round firing off guns in public places all year round...not very condusive to tourism....there' no final solution......look at the history of the expression.....furtgermore many of the dogs have owners....how do you tell which is which.

If you capture the dogs and take them away for killing, they will immediately be replaced by other animals and you will still have unsterilised dogs increasing the population.

Saying "Since dogs who are removed are quickly replaced, the population does not decrease at all" suggest that it's a one of killing.

If the cull is widespread and continous there will be no dogs to replace the removed dogs. Also, there will be no need for any remaining dogs to migrate as there is much less dogs were they live anyway.

A continious killing program would not mean "people running round firing off guns in public places all year round". Most strays live in packs of 5-50 dogs, just do a controlled feeding of the pack with a knock-out drug, sort out the healthy looking dogs for possible adoption and put down the remainer in a painless way.

If sterilizing the dogs at this point you will only prolong the problem and the suffering of these dogs.

Nearly all strays I see have visible health defects such as scabies and other parasites, scars from fighting or missing limbs from being runover. Anyone wanting these dogs to live on like this is not an animal lover.

If owners let theire dogs run around freely they should be heavily punished. There is no excuse for letting a possibly dangerous animal run around attacking people and causing traffic accidents. If you don't have a big enough property to let your dog get some exercise you should not have a dog.

[loong]

i sorry but there's no suggestion of it being "one off" killing. But think what a continuous killing program in Pattaya wouls entail. people running round firing off guns in public places all year round...not very condusive to tourism....there' no final solution......look at the history of the expression.....furtgermore many of the dogs have owners....how do you tell which is which.

If you capture the dogs and take them away for killing, they will immediately be replaced by other animals and you will still have unsterilised dogs increasing the population.

A cull would be quicker and easier than the huge task of surgical sterilisation

This argument that culled dogs would be replaced by others doesn't wash. You could just as easily say that the dogs that are not born will be replaced by others.

As for being able to tell which dogs have owners, that's easy - the dogs with owners are not roaming the streets! They are being cared for properly aren't they? The dogs with owners on the street are easily identified, they have leads and their owner attached.

I have been involved in a motorbike accident thanks to a stray dog, luckily not too badly injured. If I hadn't been wearing a helmet could have been a different matter. I have also seen the damage that these mutts can do to a child.

If some of you bleeding hearts are ever faced with the reality that many people are injured or die because of these animals, you might change your tune. How will you feel if your child has his or her face ripped open by a stray dog or if a loved one is injured or worse because these dogs are allowed to roam free.

Edited December 30, 2006 by loong