Anti-graft body investigating my witnesses, Yingluck tells to court

[robblok]

Just now, stephen tracy said:

Denying people the right to freedom of expression punishable by breathtaking jail sentences means you're unfit to rule.  End of story. 

In your book not in my book.. i base it per thing they do. 

 

I give the Shins the same credit. 

[stephen tracy]

Just now, robblok said:

In your book not in my book.. i base it per thing they do. 

 

I give the Shins the same credit. 

Well then that indicates that you do not support basic democratic freedoms.  I do. We agree to disagree.

[candide]

20 minutes ago, robblok said:

So during YL her rule the judiciary was better.. believe the whole red bull saga began under her watch. So its just crazy to think they are any better. YL is elite too.. just an other elite. 

 

Just voting does not work without a good judiciary and good punishment. Now when the junta came in the bad stuff the PTP did (corruption ect) got punished. Had the junta not been there they PTP would still have had protection and cases would not have progressed. Do I like it that it takes a coup to punish them. I would have preferred it if that was not needed for justice. Too bad its not. As long as a party is in power they do all they can to get their men in the right positions and then control it all. They then make sure that crimes and stuff they commit does not get prosecuted (or stall and use their friends to make sure evidence does not get found ect).

 

Now the junta did the same thing (look at the PM his brother and nephew) But at least the PTP got their crimes punished... later when junta has no protection its their turn to get punished. It would be far better if this did not happen and that sitting governments did not have the power to stall and pervert justice. However this is how it goes in Thailand.  

The government can put pressure on the judiciary, in particular when it has absolute power. But when it is about the judiciary and semi-judiciary (i.e. the so-called independent organisations), the most important is who appointed them. It determines the political orientation of the judiciary, whatever the government in power. For example, several indictions and convictions of Thaksin and friends and familly, happenned during the time his party was in power. On the other hand, not much appenned to opposition leaders.....

As concerns the Junta, they will not only benefit from their amnesty, but also from a whole network of freshly appointed judges, commissioners, senators, etc... So unless a revolution occurs, they risk absolutely nothing.

[iReason]

On June 16, 2017 at 6:49 PM, than said:

It seems that your "witnesses" are as corrupt as you

 

Judge and jury now are ya?

[Grubster]

10 hours ago, halloween said:

How about the level of corruption involved up to and including ministers, and the sheer amount of money wasted?

 

BTW the "little Johnny did it too" defence doesn't work.

Maybe not but the fact that big Johnny is doing it now in spades might be relevant.

[Grubster]

10 hours ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

thailands corruption is to the point of being comical. try to live in thailand owing a business. the lawyers seem to have no morals or ethics so there is no accountability. people just do what ever they think they can buy their way out of. 

who ever is on ying lucks team will be hassled and most people in thailand with money are guilty of corruption to some level. you should see the way my accountant does my taxes. basically anyone with money is guilty of fraud.

The last big scandal in the US was the 800 billion dollar bank bail out. Thats about 30 trillion baht.

[anon4546543]

Living in part of the rice bowl of Thailand, seeing the result of the "rice growing scheme", the poverty it has caused the rural backbone of Thailand

makes me wish that this evil witch could just be sent to jail. Many land owners have needed to sell land because of the debts they incurred because

of this woman who needs to spend so many million baht every month to pay for the favours she needs not to be found guilty of one of the worst

scams this country has ever seen. The truth will prevail eventually, she will join her father in purgatory. (A very glamorous purgatory) 

 

 I wish there was some way to return the funds to those she stole from, the poor rural farmers..

[candide]

4 hours ago, spiderorchid said:

Living in part of the rice bowl of Thailand, seeing the result of the "rice growing scheme", the poverty it has caused the rural backbone of Thailand

makes me wish that this evil witch could just be sent to jail. Many land owners have needed to sell land because of the debts they incurred because

of this woman who needs to spend so many million baht every month to pay for the favours she needs not to be found guilty of one of the worst

scams this country has ever seen. The truth will prevail eventually, she will join her father in purgatory. (A very glamorous purgatory) 

 

 I wish there was some way to return the funds to those she stole from, the poor rural farmers..

Junta huggers regularly state two contradictory arguments. On the one hand they state that farmers have been very unlucky under the previous rice scheme, wich suggests they would not vote again for the same party. On the other hand, they justify the cancellation and never-ending postponment of elections, because populist policies such as the rice scheme unfairly induce people to vote for PTP.

This is totally incoherent! Sorry guys, but reality cannot be one thing and its contrary at the same time! (Ok you can argue it's in in Asia, so Ying and Yang, blah blah...)

[anon4546543]

2 minutes ago, candide said:

Junta huggers regularly state two contradictory arguments. On the one hand they state that farmers have been very unlucky under the previous rice scheme, wich suggests they would not vote again for the same party. On the other hand, they justify the cancellation and never-ending postponment of elections, because populist policies such as the rice scheme unfairly induce people to vote for PTP.

This is totally incoherent! Sorry guys, but reality cannot be one thing and its contrary at the same time! (Ok you can argue it's in in Asia, so Ying and Yang, blah blah...)

You may call me a junta hugger because you need to label coherent debate with (you think) put downs. Your post also tells me you do not live in Asia. Yin and Yang is Chinese, not Thai. And not ying and yang anyway.

Most of the Thai villagers that I talk to never want to vote again, they trusted this evil woman and it has cost them 3 years to start to get back on their feet again.

Some lost their landholding, others lost large areas to repay the banks. But hey democracy overrules the suffering of the rural community. 

 Then your post goes into some fantasy about people actually wanting to vote for another corrupt government or are induced to do so.

In the built up areas, rich but mostly unsophisticated Thai teens and uni students cry for change. The same kids that benefit from subduing the masses.

Most Thais do not trust them or the scamming parents that bore them. The status quo is ok to so many Thai, better the little devil you know than the huge scammers waiting in the wings.

[williamgeorgeallen]

6 hours ago, Grubster said:

The last big scandal in the US was the 800 billion dollar bank bail out. Thats about 30 trillion baht.

yea  that bank bail out was just beyond belief.  gotta feel for all the people who lost the wealth they put into their home which in many cases was their only asset. america has a different system of corruption. the little man on the street does not have to deal with it on a daily basis, unless they lost their house that is.

[Thechook]

I think the findings are already in and they are just in having the show for appearances.  It's a personal thing for Prayuth and she should've signed off on the subs, tanks and APC's when he requested them.

[candide]

42 minutes ago, spiderorchid said:

You may call me a junta hugger because you need to label coherent debate with (you think) put downs. Your post also tells me you do not live in Asia. Yin and Yang is Chinese, not Thai. And not ying and yang anyway.

Most of the Thai villagers that I talk to never want to vote again, they trusted this evil woman and it has cost them 3 years to start to get back on their feet again.

Some lost their landholding, others lost large areas to repay the banks. But hey democracy overrules the suffering of the rural community. 

 Then your post goes into some fantasy about people actually wanting to vote for another corrupt government or are induced to do so.

In the built up areas, rich but mostly unsophisticated Thai teens and uni students cry for change. The same kids that benefit from subduing the masses.

Most Thais do not trust them or the scamming parents that bore them. The status quo is ok to so many Thai, better the little devil you know than the huge scammers waiting in the wings.

If you don't consider yourself as a Junta hugger, I happily apologize.

 

Still, I am wondering: if the Junta is so appreciated (and relatedly the PPT so unpopular), why is the Junta so afraid of freedom of expression and of elections.?Sorry, but it does not fit. You may have your own localised perception, but the power that be, who have access to unbiased surveys and other means of information, obviously don't share your perception.

[Thechook]

6 hours ago, spiderorchid said:

Living in part of the rice bowl of Thailand, seeing the result of the "rice growing scheme", the poverty it has caused the rural backbone of Thailand

makes me wish that this evil witch could just be sent to jail. Many land owners have needed to sell land because of the debts they incurred because

of this woman who needs to spend so many million baht every month to pay for the favours she needs not to be found guilty of one of the worst

scams this country has ever seen. The truth will prevail eventually, she will join her father in purgatory. (A very glamorous purgatory) 

 

 I wish there was some way to return the funds to those she stole from, the poor rural farmers..

My wife was quite happy with the rice scheme.

[halloween]

4 hours ago, Thechook said:

My wife was quite happy with the rice scheme.

Would that be "I'm all right Jill"?

[robblok]

12 hours ago, candide said:

The government can put pressure on the judiciary, in particular when it has absolute power. But when it is about the judiciary and semi-judiciary (i.e. the so-called independent organisations), the most important is who appointed them. It determines the political orientation of the judiciary, whatever the government in power. For example, several indictions and convictions of Thaksin and friends and familly, happenned during the time his party was in power. On the other hand, not much appenned to opposition leaders.....

As concerns the Junta, they will not only benefit from their amnesty, but also from a whole network of freshly appointed judges, commissioners, senators, etc... So unless a revolution occurs, they risk absolutely nothing.

That is sad then, unfortunate.. but does that mean you are ok with the PTP robbing and being corrupt and also not risking a thing because the junta does not get punished (something i really don't like). In my book i rather have some criminals convicted then none at all.. if none are ever convicted it will get worse and worse. 

So do tell me.. do you want if you can choose... have the corruption of the PTP go free because the junta goes free ? Or do you want then conviced ? I want them all convicted like you but you said its impossible..t hen 2 options remain. 

[robblok]

4 hours ago, Thechook said:

My wife was quite happy with the rice scheme.

Then she probably got paid.. others did not because there was no money reserved for it. But I really detested the rice scheme.. so much money put into it.. to benefit only the farmers a voting block. If she had put it in the universal healthcare program I would have supported it as everyone would have benefited.. but that would not have given her the voting block of the farmers..  so its not about helping the people.. its about getting in power. 

 

Its always the farmers this that.. but never really the other poor / middle class. Why.. because they are the means to get her in power. I find that really unfair to all the others... a garage goes bust.. tough luck b.. a farmer loses money on a crop.. here take this bag of money.  

[halloween]

16 minutes ago, robblok said:

Then she probably got paid.. others did not because there was no money reserved for it. But I really detested the rice scheme.. so much money put into it.. to benefit only the farmers a voting block. If she had put it in the universal healthcare program I would have supported it as everyone would have benefited.. but that would not have given her the voting block of the farmers..  so its not about helping the people.. its about getting in power. 

 

Its always the farmers this that.. but never really the other poor / middle class. Why.. because they are the means to get her in power. I find that really unfair to all the others... a garage goes bust.. tough luck b.. a farmer loses money on a crop.. here take this bag of money.  

Why do they bury farmers 3 feet down? So they can still put their hand out.

[Eric Loh]

18 minutes ago, robblok said:

Then she probably got paid.. others did not because there was no money reserved for it. But I really detested the rice scheme.. so much money put into it.. to benefit only the farmers a voting block. If she had put it in the universal healthcare program I would have supported it as everyone would have benefited.. but that would not have given her the voting block of the farmers..  so its not about helping the people.. its about getting in power. 

 

Its always the farmers this that.. but never really the other poor / middle class. Why.. because they are the means to get her in power. I find that really unfair to all the others... a garage goes bust.. tough luck b.. a farmer loses money on a crop.. here take this bag of money.  

Robblok, do you also detest the 200B per year fuel and electricity subsidies or the 6B rubber subsides and other agriculture crops subsidies like sugar. I believed the fuel and electricity subsidies benefit the poor, middle class and also the super wealthy. Populist policies for votes? The rice scheme although disproportionate and way over the top does benefit the wider economies that owned by poor and middle class. What u think?

[robblok]

1 minute ago, Eric Loh said:

Robblok, do you also detest the 200B per year fuel and electricity subsidies or the 6B rubber subsides and other agriculture crops subsidies like sugar. I believed the fuel and electricity subsidies benefit the poor, middle class and also the super wealthy. Populist policies for votes? The rice scheme although disproportionate and way over the top does benefit the wider economies that owned by poor and middle class. What u think?

Eric,

 

What is unclear about FARMERS... did I say only rice farmers ?. Fuel and electricity subsidies benefit everyone.. not just farmers. The rice scheme.. got nothing good to say about it and I dont think it benefitted others.. just like the trickle down effect (believe it was an American policiy at some time to benefit the rich and supposed to trickle down) I don't believe the rice program benefited others. Besides of course those ministers that arranged fake GTG deals to double put rice in the system. 

 

I am against farming subsidies in the west too (mentioned that countless times) I grew up in a farming area.. i know farmers. 

[ChrisY1]

On 6/16/2017 at 9:44 PM, Grubster said:

I'm not sure Thailand is any more corrupt than most western countries

 

Edited June 18, 2017 by ChrisY1

[candide]

5 hours ago, robblok said:

That is sad then, unfortunate.. but does that mean you are ok with the PTP robbing and being corrupt and also not risking a thing because the junta does not get punished (something i really don't like). In my book i rather have some criminals convicted then none at all.. if none are ever convicted it will get worse and worse. 

So do tell me.. do you want if you can choose... have the corruption of the PTP go free because the junta goes free ? Or do you want then conviced ? I want them all convicted like you but you said its impossible..t hen 2 options remain. 

I see your point: at least one  part of corrupt people would be convicted. Why not? What I challenge is the related assumption that it will result in a global benefit for the country, and even more that this benefit justifies a military Junta.

Your starting point is something like that: A and B are equally corrupt, B cannot be convicted but is able to convict A, so at least 50% of corruption is removed. However there are two other aspects to consider.

1. It is quite likely that B will not only keep its previous level of corruption, but will also take over the previous share of corruption by A. So the total corruption will be 1he same as before. Moreover, B has far reaching power  and uses it to remain in power or influent for a very long period of time without any check and balance. So it is even likely that the total level of corruption will increase.

2. B is not a government like others, it imposes a heavy price to pay: negative impact on the economy, loss of civil rights, muzzling of society, arbitrary arrest and conviction (not to mention what cannot be discussed), etc... Is the cost/benefit analysis positive? I don't think so.

 

So in summary: should corrupt PPT politicians be convicted? Ok, why not if they get a fair trial (which is not certain). Will it have a positive impact on corruption and prevent things to get worse? I don't think so. Does it justifies the price to pay for having a military Junta? Certainly not

Edited June 18, 2017 by candide

[robblok]

17 hours ago, candide said:

I see your point: at least one  part of corrupt people would be convicted. Why not? What I challenge is the related assumption that it will result in a global benefit for the country, and even more that this benefit justifies a military Junta.

Your starting point is something like that: A and B are equally corrupt, B cannot be convicted but is able to convict A, so at least 50% of corruption is removed. However there are two other aspects to consider.

1. It is quite likely that B will not only keep its previous level of corruption, but will also take over the previous share of corruption by A. So the total corruption will be 1he same as before. Moreover, B has far reaching power  and uses it to remain in power or influent for a very long period of time without any check and balance. So it is even likely that the total level of corruption will increase.

2. B is not a government like others, it imposes a heavy price to pay: negative impact on the economy, loss of civil rights, muzzling of society, arbitrary arrest and conviction (not to mention what cannot be discussed), etc... Is the cost/benefit analysis positive? I don't think so.

 

So in summary: should corrupt PPT politicians be convicted? Ok, why not if they get a fair trial (which is not certain). Will it have a positive impact on corruption and prevent things to get worse? I don't think so. Does it justifies the price to pay for having a military Junta? Certainly not

You are forgetting one thing that is that even this junta will go away. So then its back to PTP or democrats. Then the junta is gone from those places where they could facilitate the corruption (not all but quite a few). So then we are back at democratic government and they will protect their own (don't deny it its a way of life here on both sides). The only time of the convictions happens in a power change. PTP always goes after democrats and vice versa. Its only rare (did see army go after democrats and democrats after democrats) that they go after their own. 

 

But whoever is in power will always have some corrupt members so the amount of corruption would be constant (maybe more in more corrupt governments). I am more talking about the moral part of letting people off when its sure they are corrupt. I can't accept that. By letting people get away with it we are sending the wrong signal. 

 

Its good to see you do agree with jailing and investigating corrupt politicians. I don't agree that it does not have a positive impact. I think it certainly will for when future governments. It will go slow but it will change. I do think the coup is worth it. Guess we differ on that. If the PTP was better and more clear in their dealings I would never have supported a coup. The rice scam with the highest ministers taking huge cuts from it with fake rice deals is just one of the things that would never have been exposed without the army. They even wanted to arrest a democrat MP for showing the rice that was rotten. YL kept a tight book denying all corruption not giving out any figures. Only when the army stepped in came the massive loss to light. (plus additional corruption). They just bring it up to themselves that people like me support coups. (I won't say the army stepped in to end the corruption because they wanted other things) But they get my support because they weed out the corruption of the PTP and entangle all their friends from high places so the next time its harder for them to be corrupt (until they got their friends back in the high places)

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies about the coup have been removed. 

[tomta]

1 hour ago, spiderorchid said:

Lastly and I repeat, I do not comment on any politics in the the country I am visiting or living in. I suggest you do the same.

But you just did

 

[Baerboxer]

On 6/16/2017 at 6:55 PM, candide said:

Well, as she is not accused of corruption, it could be understood that they are not corrupt!

 

In this case she is accused of negligence. Has she, or one single witness so far explained how appointed yourself chair of the scheme and then never bothering to attend any of the meetings you were supposed to chair isn't negligent? Can't wait to see that explained - will rewrite all the management books.

 

Also, if things were so transparent, how come the accounts have never been revealed?

 

Got to hand it to them. They will argue black is white, white is black and avoid answering real questions for years and years.

 

 

[Trumpish]

8 hours ago, robblok said:

I rather have them all punished but if not possible then just a few instead none at all.

Furthermore this junta stayed on far longer as any before. In general there are more normal governments. So its still a win if politicians get punished.

Anyway i really do want them all punished as i HATE corruption on any side. You can see me cheering in old topics when democrats were caught and punished.

 

"as i HATE corruption on any side"

 

A bold statement my man. And untrue. I've only ever seen you comment on corruption when it's alleged to be by a redshirt..

[metisdead]

Posts and replies not related to "Anti-graft body investigating my witnesses, Yingluck tells to court" have been removed. 

[JCauto]

On 6/17/2017 at 3:23 PM, Artisi said:

Tough titties, if standing as a witness for the likes of YL, expect to be looked at. 

So you're strongly for justice and equal and fair application of the law, no exceptions including the rich and powerful.  But you are fine with witness intimidation and ensuring that the odds are stacked against the person who is being prosecuted. No double standard there!